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+----- Thread: Amur Tigers (/topic-amur-tigers)
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 02-05-2025
Male tiger from the Khabarovsk territory:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Male tiger captured on camera that was hunting dogs in the village of Barabash in central Primorye (February 1-2, 2025):
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Amur Tigers - Invincible - 02-06-2025
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 02-17-2025
Amur tiger "moved" from the south to the north of Primorsky Krai
*This image is copyright of its original author
On February 2, 2025, an Amur tiger suspected of attacking dogs was caught in the vicinity of the village of Barabash in the Khasansky District of Primorsky Krai. The predator was taken to a rehabilitation center, examined, and, having established that it was completely healthy, returned to the wild, but already in the north of the region.
The capture was carried out by employees of the Ministry of Forestry, Environmental Protection, Wildlife and Natural Resources of Primorsky Krai and the subordinate KGBU "Directorate for the Protection of Wildlife and Specially Protected Natural Areas" with the participation of specialists from the Land of the Leopard National Park. The Amur Tiger Center provides support to the hunting supervision services of Primorsky Krai in equipping them with equipment and special means for resolving conflict situations.
The animal was taken to the rehabilitation center of the MROO "Tiger Center". The adult male is healthy, he has no injuries or wounds. Rosprirodnadzor recommended returning the animal to the wild.
The "return" took place on February 4, 2025. The male was released into the wild in the north of Primorsky Krai in a place with a good food supply, far from populated areas.
Photo: Yuriy Smityuk
https://amur-tiger.ru/news/amurskiy-tigr-pereehal-s-yuga-na-sever-primorskogo-kraya-1438
RE: Amur Tigers - return 80 - 02-28-2025
Detail information of a large wild male Siberian Tiger
Before my application is approved by Mods, I would like to send a data here. If any other friends have seen this data and are interested, they can also post it to 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'
Catalog:09725
*This image is copyright of its original author
Basic information:
This is an adult male tiger purchased in March 1957 in Yichun County, Heilongjiang Province, China. It is currently housed in the Institute of Zoology, Academia Sinica
Size:
As far as I know,this male have the third largest wild tiger skull from Northeast China(Only slightly smaller than the B-3 and B-4 reported by Mazák) and it is the largest Tiger skull in <FAUNA SINICA> Vol.8:Carnivora.
specimen information:
First reported in<Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>(《东北兽类调查报告》),The zygomatic breadth is large and have very strong sagittal crest. The upper and lower canine teeth are robust, the mandible is very heavy. the nasal is relatively short.
Here are main Skull measurements of this specimen(Because this specimen has been measured multiple times, I have selected some of the data):
1.Greatest skull length(Prosthion–inion):
366.0mm
2.condylobasal length (Prosthion–Occipital condyles):
332.5mm
3.basal length (Prosthion–Basion):
297.5mm
4.Palatal length (Prosthion–Staphylion)
163.5mm
5.Rostral breadth: 102.5mm
6.Interorbital breadth: 66.6mm
7.zygomatic breadth: 260.0mm
8.Mastoidal breadth: 140.4mm
9.upper dental length(i¹–Pm⁴,measure along with the palatine middle line):124.0mm
10.Palatal width between P4: 129.9mm
Here are the main Body measurements.The measure method is showed in <Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>.All mammals were measured in straight line.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Headbody length a(straight line):1800mm
tail length b(straight line):1070mm
hindfoot length c:420mm
ear length d:120mm
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 02-28-2025
(02-28-2025, 01:09 AM)return 80 Wrote: Detail information of a large wild male Siberian Tiger
Before my application is approved by Mods, I would like to send a data here. If any other friends have seen this data and are interested, they can also post it to 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'
Catalog:09725
*This image is copyright of its original author
Basic information:
This is an adult male tiger purchased in March 1957 in Yichun County, Heilongjiang Province, China. It is currently housed in the Institute of Zoology, Academia Sinica
Size:
As far as I know,this male have the third largest wild tiger skull from Northeast China(Only slightly smaller than the B-3 and B-4 reported by Mazák) and it is the largest Tiger skull in <FAUNA SINICA> Vol.8:Carnivora.
specimen information:
First reported in<Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>(《东北兽类调查报告》),The zygomatic breadth is large and have very strong sagittal crest. The upper and lower canine teeth are robust, the mandible is very heavy. the nasal is relatively short.
Here are main Skull measurements of this specimen(Because this specimen has been measured multiple times, I have selected some of the data):
1.Greatest skull length(Prosthion–inion):
366.0mm
2.condylobasal length (Prosthion–Occipital condyles):
332.5mm
3.basal length (Prosthion–Basion):
297.5mm
4.Palatal length (Prosthion–Staphylion)
163.5mm
5.Rostral breadth: 102.5mm
6.Interorbital breadth: 66.6mm
7.zygomatic breadth: 260.0mm
8.Mastoidal breadth: 140.4mm
9.upper dental length(i¹–Pm⁴,measure along with the palatine middle line):124.0mm
10.Palatal width between P4: 129.9mm
Here are the main Body measurements.The measure method is showed in <Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>.All mammals were measured in straight line.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Headbody length a(straight line):1800mm
tail length b(straight line):1070mm
hindfoot length c:420mm
ear length d:120mm
SATURN
Very interesting information. Many thanks!
In one of his publications, J.H. Mazak referred to the skull of a wild adult male Amur tiger with a total greatest length of 366 mm. If I remember correctly, the skull was measured in a scientific institute in a large city in northeastern China. Could have been Harbin. Is this the same skull?
In the same publication, J.H. Mazak also mentioned a skull of an adult Amur tigress with a greatest total length of 329 mm. Would you be able to find that skull?
Did you already contact Sanjay or BAO for permission to post in the tiger extinction thread?
Some years ago, I posted the table below in the tiger extinction thread. The one who first posted the table (KTKC, a member of the former AVA forum) said it was from a Chinese book. The tiger you discussed in your post seems very close to tiger -6- in that table:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Amur Tigers - return 80 - 02-28-2025
(02-28-2025, 04:27 AM)peter Wrote:Hi peter,(02-28-2025, 01:09 AM)return 80 Wrote: Detail information of a large wild male Siberian Tiger
Before my application is approved by Mods, I would like to send a data here. If any other friends have seen this data and are interested, they can also post it to 'On the edge of extinction - The Tiger (Panthera tigris)'
Catalog:09725
*This image is copyright of its original author
Basic information:
This is an adult male tiger purchased in March 1957 in Yichun County, Heilongjiang Province, China. It is currently housed in the Institute of Zoology, Academia Sinica
Size:
As far as I know,this male have the third largest wild tiger skull from Northeast China(Only slightly smaller than the B-3 and B-4 reported by Mazák) and it is the largest Tiger skull in <FAUNA SINICA> Vol.8:Carnivora.
specimen information:
First reported in<Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>(《东北兽类调查报告》),The zygomatic breadth is large and have very strong sagittal crest. The upper and lower canine teeth are robust, the mandible is very heavy. the nasal is relatively short.
Here are main Skull measurements of this specimen(Because this specimen has been measured multiple times, I have selected some of the data):
1.Greatest skull length(Prosthion–inion):
366.0mm
2.condylobasal length (Prosthion–Occipital condyles):
332.5mm
3.basal length (Prosthion–Basion):
297.5mm
4.Palatal length (Prosthion–Staphylion)
163.5mm
5.Rostral breadth: 102.5mm
6.Interorbital breadth: 66.6mm
7.zygomatic breadth: 260.0mm
8.Mastoidal breadth: 140.4mm
9.upper dental length(i¹–Pm⁴,measure along with the palatine middle line):124.0mm
10.Palatal width between P4: 129.9mm
Here are the main Body measurements.The measure method is showed in <Survey Report on Mammals in Northeast China>.All mammals were measured in straight line.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Headbody length a(straight line):1800mm
tail length b(straight line):1070mm
hindfoot length c:420mm
ear length d:120mm
SATURN
Very interesting information. Many thanks!
In one of his publications, J.H. Mazak referred to the skull of a wild adult male Amur tiger with a total greatest length of 366 mm. If I remember correctly, the skull was measured in a scientific institute in a large city in northeastern China. Could have been Harbin. Is this the same skull?
In the same publication, J.H. Mazak also mentioned a skull of an adult Amur tigress with a greatest total length of 329 mm. Would you be able to find that skull?
Did you already contact Sanjay or BAO for permission to post in the tiger extinction thread?
Some years ago, I posted the table below in the tiger extinction thread. The one who first posted the table (KTKC, a member of the former AVA forum) said it was from a Chinese book. The tiger you discussed in your post seems very close to tiger -6- in that table:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thanks for your reply.I will contact Sanjay or BAO as soon as I can.But I am a bit unfamiliar with the communication among forum users, which may take some time
1.The 09725
Yes,the Tiger-06 in KTKC's table and the 366mm mentioned by Ji H. mazák are same individual(09725),this specimen is currently housed in Institute of Zoology, Academia Sinica(中国科学院动物研究所),Beijing,In the capital of the PRC.
2.The 329mm Amur tigress skull
The 329mm old adult Amur tigress skull is a no catalog number skull which housed in Zhejiang natural history museum(Hangzhou).It seems no any record in Chinese mammals monographs or Tiger research books,only mentioned by Ji H. mazák.
In an interview a few years ago, Ji H. mazák stated that he had visited all zoological institutions in China that had collections of tiger skulls and conducted measurements, along with Prof Dr. Colin P. Groves provided his Dr. VRATISLAV MAZÁK's original data. He has a total of 320 tiger skulls data, and he may also be the person who knows the best about the collection of tiger skulls in major zoological institutions in China.
Therefore, he could mention the 329mm skull that was not mentioned in previous Chinese publications
*This image is copyright of its original author
I once visit the Zhejiang natural history museum,and briefly volunteered at the Zhejiang Natural History Museum at past.But I can't access this skull now, maybe one day in the future I can apply to measure this skull.
This no number skull seems the largest wild tigress skull record.As far as I know,only a Nepal female could compare with it(AMNH 54459,GSL330mm ZW 242mm,see Adam Hartstone-Rose et al.2014 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0113437.t001).Adam Hartstone-Rose's research also include the heaviest wild Amur tigress's skull(AMNH 85405,167kg,Ussuri region).The interesting thing is that this skull's greatest length only 286mm,smaller than the average female skull GSL.
KTKC seems to be a tiger enthusiast who is very familiar with and knowledgeable about Chinese publications.His table's data are came from the different Chinese mammals monographs and Tiger research books.But these merged data may not have been measured using the same method.
For example,the nasal length of 09725 is 90mm,but also have 116.5mm record.Or perhaps the initial report of Tiger-04 did not mention the measurement method for its Headbody length.These data are all correct, but the author did not provide specific details in the main text, so there may be some misleading confusion when citing them.
3.Some detailed information of KTKC's table
There several individuals in KTKC's table are described in detail,I can give two simple examples.
Tiger-01 South China Tiger(P.t.amoyensis)
catalog number:6400129
This South China Tiger was reportedly shot dead by local villagers in June 1964 for endangering their personal safety. The location is Foping County, Hanzhong City, Shaanxi Province, China.
skull and skin were housed in Shaanxi Institute of Zoology.
This individual is the most reliable and largest wild individual recorded in the South China Tigers. Skull size(346 × 262.5mm), weight recorded (even some reports suggest a weight of 225kg, although I believe 190kg is more reliable), and body size measurements are all the largest.In addition, it is also the northernmost individual record of the distribution of South China tigers and the last wild record of South China tigers in Shaanxi Province.
It is also one of the samples for recent research on the ancient genome of South China tigers (see https://doi.org/10.1038/s41559-023-02185-8)
This individual has left many images in many Chinese publications and on the Chinese Internet. Here are some photos of it's skull and skin.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Tiger-04
This male Amur was shot and killed by poachers in Heilongjiang Province, northeastern China on November 14, 1989. When discovered by relevant protection agencies, it had already died.The inner thigh and the distal part of tail were removed by poachers, and it has now been made into a taxidermy specimen for exhibition at the Heilongjiang Natural History Museum.
The age of this tiger is 3.7-5 years old, and it weighed within 48 hours after dissection. The total weight of the tiger corpse is 161079.05g.
So, in my opinion, if the stolen parts and lost blood are added to this tiger, its weight while still alive may be around 170kg or somewhat more.
Detailed anatomical literature also provides other relevant skeletal data and weight besides the skull. Here, I list some main data. The data for limb bones is the average size of the left and right sides
Appendicular skeleton length:
humerus 341mm
scapula 270.5mm
ulna 353mm
radius 282mm
femur 396.5mm
tibia 344mm
fibula 310mm
pelvic 320mm
Vertebral length:
cervical 350mm
thoracic 545mm
lumbar 445mm
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 02-28-2025
Hi Return
I noticed you suddenly changed your name from 'Saturn 80' to 'Return 80'. This is the reason our mods and Sanjay couldn't find you. I informed them when I noticed you had changed your user name, meaning they'll able to enable you to post in the tiger extinction thread in a few days from now. You can also create threads.
Your last post was very informing. Many thanks. The information you posted will enable me, for the first time, to use a number of skulls from the table I posted.
Something else.
I'm working on a post that has skull measurements of (captive and wild) Amur tigers (P.t. altaica), Caspian tigers (P.t. virgata) and South China tigers (P.t. amoyensis). The reason is I want to respond to a paper that was published about 2 years ago ('Phenotypic plasticity determines differences between the skulls of tigers from mainland Asia', Cooper (DM) et al, Royal Society Open Science, November 2022).
That paper has quite a few conclusions about Amur tigers in particular. The data set that was added some months later shows (both captive and wild) male Amur tigers average about 345-346 mm in greatest total skull length. It also shows the rostrum width and the zygomatic width of wild Amur tigers is (well) below that of their captive relatives. The larger sagittal crest of wild Amur tigers, they concluded, most probably is a result of an adaption to their environment (consuming frozen meat).
I went over the data set, used all measurements for a few tables and noticed the measurements of quite a few skulls (referring to the rostrum and zygomatic width of both wild and captive male Amur tigers in particular) were below the lower limits I recorded. One explanation is Cooper could have included skulls of young adults in the data set. In order to test this idea, I went over everything I have (referring to my own measurements and measurements from articles and books). My aim was to use the table I posted (referring to my previous post) as well, but I can't because the table has no source.
The information you posted was very helpful in this respect. The request is if you know a bit more about the other skulls in the table I posted (referring to Amur tigers). I'm in particular interested in the age of the previous owner of the skull. In order to be complete, I'll add I consider skulls of male tigers of 6 years and over as 'adult'. The reason I got to that conclusion is a lot of work on skulls of (captive and wild) male tigers from Indonesia. I made a few tables a few years ago and concluded the difference between young adults (3-5 years of age) and mature adults (6 years and older) is significant. Same, by the way, in brown bears (males).
One last remark. Our mod 'Grizzly Claws' is our specialist in skulls and bones department. The threads he created are of interest, I think.
RE: Amur Tigers - return 80 - 03-01-2025
(02-28-2025, 07:33 PM)peter Wrote: Hi Return
I noticed you suddenly changed your name from 'Saturn 80' to 'Return 80'. This is the reason our mods and Sanjay couldn't find you. I informed them when I noticed you had changed your user name, meaning they'll able to enable you to post in the tiger extinction thread in a few days from now. You can also create threads.
Your last post was very informing. Many thanks. The information you posted will enable me, for the first time, to use a number of skulls from the table I posted.
Something else.
I'm working on a post that has skull measurements of (captive and wild) Amur tigers (P.t. altaica), Caspian tigers (P.t. virgata) and South China tigers (P.t. amoyensis). The reason is I want to respond to a paper that was published about 2 years ago ('Phenotypic plasticity determines differences between the skulls of tigers from mainland Asia', Cooper (DM) et al, Royal Society Open Science, November 2022).
That paper has quite a few conclusions about Amur tigers in particular. The data set that was added some months later shows (both captive and wild) male Amur tigers average about 345-346 mm in greatest total skull length. It also shows the rostrum width and the zygomatic width of wild Amur tigers is (well) below that of their captive relatives. The larger sagittal crest of wild Amur tigers, they concluded, most probably is a result of an adaption to their environment (consuming frozen meat).
I went over the data set, used all measurements for a few tables and noticed the measurements of quite a few skulls (referring to the rostrum and zygomatic width of both wild and captive male Amur tigers in particular) were below the lower limits I recorded. One explanation is Cooper could have included skulls of young adults in the data set. In order to test this idea, I went over everything I have (referring to my own measurements and measurements from articles and books). My aim was to use the table I posted (referring to my previous post) as well, but I can't because the table has no source.
The information you posted was very helpful in this respect. The request is if you know a bit more about the other skulls in the table I posted (referring to Amur tigers). I'm in particular interested in the age of the previous owner of the skull. In order to be complete, I'll add I consider skulls of male tigers of 6 years and over as 'adult'. The reason I got to that conclusion is a lot of work on skulls of (captive and wild) male tigers from Indonesia. I made a few tables a few years ago and concluded the difference between young adults (3-5 years of age) and mature adults (6 years and older) is significant. Same, by the way, in brown bears (males).
One last remark. Our mod 'Grizzly Claws' is our specialist in skulls and bones department. The threads he created are of interest, I think.
Hi peter,
Thank you for your notification and suggestions.
1.The age of KTKC's Amur tiger
The most Amur tigers in KTKC's table are came from the<FAUNA SINICA> Vol.8:Carnivora and the book<Tiger Research>.These authors didn't provide many details about these specimens.
On the one hand, I think their monographs do not pay much attention to the age records of specific tiger specimens. On the other hand, it may be because some of these specimens were obtained in Mid-20th century and may not have been recorded.
Tiger-04 is one of the more special ones because it has undergone a full body dissection and has a very detailed introduction, which is why there is a clear age record.
So unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to provide you with more information regarding age.
2.Thoughts on Cooper's wild Amur
I think your explanation seems reasonable. Referring to V. mazák's publication, the young Amur male tigers seems to have a skull size similar to that of Tiger-04.
The average size of Cooper's Bengal tiger male sample and Amur tiger sample is almost the same. In some Chinese publications by Ji H. mazák, he also talked about the comparison of skull size between Bengal tigers and Amur tigers, and listed some data.
In one of his articles from 15 years ago, he stated that among his 320 tiger skulls, the Amur tiger was not larger than the Bengal tiger.
And in another publication<Recent Advance in Tiger Phylogeny, Evolution and Geographical Variation>(Chinese version),he listed the scatter plots of CBL and latitude regression analysis for his male tiger samples.Except for three extra large individuals, the CBL of all male Amur tigers is within the range of male Bengal tigers.
*This image is copyright of its original author
An very interesting thing is an individual significantly larger than all other individuals.According to the logarithmic axis of CBL, its CBL should be around 355mm. The other two giant individuals may be B-3 and B-4 measured by V. mazák, and their CBL can also correspond to their positions on the logarithmic axis of CBL.
But these giant individuals appear randomly and in small numbers, and are not very important, with little impact on the overall average size.
In addition, in this article, Ji H. mazák provides a male Amur tiger GSL range of 340-380mm. This may be the typical size range for adult males.
3.Thoughts on Captive Amur tiger
Cooper's captive Amur tiger does not seem to be significantly longer than wild individuals, but referring to other literature, I seem to be able to find many captive Amur tiger individuals of the largest Berlin captive individual size listed by Cooper.
V. Mazák measured two male individuals from Prague Zoo,GSL371-377，CBL322.5-331.2
PER CHRISTIANSEN provided CBL of three captive male Amur tigers, two of which were clearly from the Knudsenburg Zoo, measuring 334.2-350.9mm in length
Yoshikazu Hasegawa shows a 380mm GSL,335mm CBL male Amur “ルー”
Nobuyuki Yamaguchi mentioned in his Japanese publication a captive male tiger skull from Moscow Zoo GSL390mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
And the 378mm GSL Boneclones Amur Skull cast.The original skull is from a male Amur tiger at the San Diego Zoo.
There are about eight individuals of this size mentioned above, and I think the least could say is that under good conditions in captivity, male Amur tigers have a greater chance of growing larger skull length.
According to my previous post article and cooper's article, the characteristics of captive Amur tigers also seem to be summarized as: greater Rostral breadth,zygomatic breadth,Mastoidal breadth; Longer Rostral length; lower mandible height and neurocranial height as well as smaller brain volume;Weaker sagittal crest.
Some of these characteristics suggest that Amur tigers themselves have a chance of having Longer skull lengths in captivity (e.g., Longer Rostral length).
Finally, I would like to talk about the phenomenon of larger zygomatic width in captive individuals, which is very interesting.
*This image is copyright of its original author
N. HOLLISTER in his Publication<SOME EFFECTS OF ENVIRONMENT AND HABIT ON
CAPTIVE LIONS.>Compared the skulls of local captive and wild lions.The cross sections of zygoma of wild killed and park-reared lion skulls are absolutely different.His original words were:
Zygoma more spreading anteriorly; malar very thick and wide; squamosal arm subterete and heavy, almost rounded in cross section and not at all concave on inner surface, with no superior margin for strong muscle attachment [in skulls of wild-killed specimens the squamosal arm of the zygoma is thin and light, but strong; it is greatly hollowed out on inner surface and has a sharp superior margin].
From my observation, this situation also applies to other species of Panthera genus. The following is cross sections of digital scan model of the Boneclones Amur tiger skull at an approximate location (estimated based on the height of the temporomandibular sutures). I found that the morphology of this section is very similar to that of Hollister's captive lion.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I also used another interesting example, which is the digital scanning model of Boneclones Panthera atrox BC-019.Its prototype is the LACMHC 2900-3, one of the largest American lion skulls, with a zygomatic width of up to 292mm.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Although the zygoma of the Panthera atrox are much thicker and more robust than modern lions, its approximate position on the cross sections is still blade shaped, with a clearly U-shaped inner surface, similar to wild lions.
these structural features do may indicate the degeneration of occlusal muscle attachment in captive Amur
RE: Amur Tigers - sanjay - 03-01-2025
@return 80
You can post in extinctions forum now.
RE: Amur Tigers - return 80 - 03-01-2025
(03-01-2025, 08:09 AM)sanjay Wrote: @return 80
You can post in extinctions forum now.
Hi sanjay,
Thanks !
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 03-06-2025
Male tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 04-01-2025
Amur tigers of the Durminskoye Forest Reserve captured on Alexander Batalov's camera traps: