(02-12-2016, 12:24 PM)peter Wrote: POLAR

I'm interested in the report in sloth bears and tigers.

As this thread is on trainers, I propose to start a new thread. If the report is written by biologists, you can post it in the tiger extinction thread.

Polar; I like your new profile picture.  

(12-02-2015, 12:36 PM)peter Wrote: Welcome to the forum, @Counter. Any chance you're involved in captive big cats in some way?


Measurements of captive Amur tigers

As to you question. The captive male lions I measured were shorter than the male Amur tigers. Male lion 'Sascha' could have been similar in weight to 'Arames', but the other two most probably lacked a bit (we moved them when they were sedated and concluded the male Amurs were heavier). 

The director of the facility told me he had had two big male circus lions ('Athos' and 'Zeus') some time before the Amurs arrived. They were larger than the three lions I measured, but I have no details. The director said they compared to the three male Amur tigers.

Here's a table of the captive Amur tigers I measured and weighed:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Based on my experience, I'd say that 'Igor' and 'Amur' were a bit shorter than average. They were, however, muscular and bulky. Male tiger 'Arames', although longer, was quite lanky. 


The story on the Amur tigers

The facility had 7 adult Amur tigers. All of them had been part of a circus act. During a show somewhere in France in 1996, one of the adult males escaped. Although the audience panicked, nothing happened. The trainer went after him and both returned to the cage. When the trainer entered the cage, however, he stumbled. The tiger, nervous as a result of the commotion, acted instinctively and bit him once. The trainer died immediately and the tiger was shot. 

Some three months later, after many weeks of neglect, the 7 remaining Amur tigers were moved to the facility in the Netherlands. After they had recovered to an extent, the director decided to have the male tigers sterilized. Journalists were invited and videos later appeared on youtube. He asked me to measure and weigh the tigers. When I was measuring the tigers, 2 of them suddenly woke up. This is the reason they were not weighed. Tiger 'Arames', however, was. 

When we had the correct weight, the tiger woke up. Remember he was weighed out in the open. No cage, I mean. Those present started running for their life, but we managed to keep him quiet and moved him to his cage. A tricky affaire, but we managed to do it without problems. Arames was a very friendly animal.

One of the other two males, 'Igor', was anything but that. When fully awake, he told us loud and clear he wasn't happy about the proceedings. He demonstrated for over two hours and the atmosphere became so tense that all left the scene. They really thought he would tear the place apart and so did I. In spite of that, I stayed. Never saw something so angry for so long. 


A mock fight

Tiger 'Amur', his brother, was very different. A tiger with classic features, he was. He seemed to realize he was something special. After he had been sterilized, we carried him to his cage. The man who had transported many said he was the heaviest of the 60 odd big cats they had handled. After he was measured, he approached a nice Bengal tigress in the cage next to his. She didn't like it one bit and neither did her mate, a short, but bulky male lion (this was 'Macho'). 

He immediately went for the tiger with everything he had and all present ran away screaming. I saw what happened next at a distance of about a yard. The lion rose when he got to the bars, but the tiger had seen him coming and rose as well. On his hindlegs, he was taller, bigger and faster. He moved like an experienced fighter. When the lion hit the bars, the tiger had moved to the right and landed a heavy blow to the bars separating both cages. At that moment, he also moved in his left paw for an upper-cut. He never made a sound, but seemed to enjoy the action. There was, however, no more action, as the lion had seen enough. Standing on his hind legs against the bars, he rolled over in submission. He told his fiancee about back luck and very bad luck, but she no agree and furiously attacked the mighty Amur. This was much appreciated by the tiger, but he couldn't destroy the cage. 

Some weeks later, I noticed tiger 'Amur' and lion 'Macho' got along well. The tigress, however, still didn't like the Amur. A few years later, tiger 'Amur' and his brother 'Igor' were moved to a Chinese safari park. Both were weighed at Schiphol Airport. The scales used over there are very accurate, because freight is important and they don't want problems. The man who moved the tigers to the airport told me that one of the tigers was 211 kg. (466 pounds). I assume it was 'Amur', but I'm not sure.

As to the mock fight I witnessed from a few feet. I'd say there was no fight. The reason is 'Amur' had a significant advantage over 'Macho' (see the tables) and the problem was settled in less than 10 seconds. When the tiger would have faced a bigger lion, the outcome could have been different. What I remember most is the speed, the tremendous energy, the power and the noise. Although I was very impressed, the director told me the Sumatrans, regarding fights, dwarfed all other big cats. I agree Sumatran tigers, for energy invested and aggression, could be unmatched, but my guess is an average Amur tiger wouldn't be impressed. Size counts and the animals also know.     


Amur tigers and brown bears

When the Amur tigers had just arrived, the facility also had a very large male brown bear. The Amurs could not have known, because they had just arrived and his cage was some distance away. In spite of that, they knew he was there and the bear also knew. When I went to his cage, he was very nervous and urinating all the time. I moved away and positioned myself between both cages. The animals couldn't see each other, but I could have sworn I felt energy coming towards the cage of the bear. When I moved to the cages of the tigers, I saw that all 7 were standing on their hind legs. They couldn't see the bear (the wall they faced was about 8-9 feet in height), but nevertheless knew exactly where the cage of the bear was. My guess is they were interested in a debate.

Posters often talk about lions and tigers. I understand, as males in particular tend to discuss issues the hard way. I wouldn't say they was good neighbours, but domination is different from annihilation. Amur tigers and brown bears really seem to hate each other. I've seen Amur tigers interacting with all kinds of animals. Never saw them get angry. When they see a brown bear, however, things change. Male tigers in particular often respond in a very aggressive way. My guess is they would engage any bear (and the other way round). I saw it more than once and trainers confirmed the animosity is deep-rooted.   

This is why I don't buy the information on tigers and brown bears in Russia. Biologists concluded male brown bears are not on the menu. Could be true, but I'm sure they meet every now and then. Although I trust the biologists, Vaillant ('The tiger', pp. 139-141) could be right. He talked to those in the know and concluded a male tiger will avoid a big bear, but not others. Fights do not seem to be a result of a failed hunt, but of something else:

" ... Based on observations of hunters and biologists, it appears that Amur tigers will occasionally kill bears solely on something we might recognize as principle. Communal animals sometimes engage in wanton attacks, but it is hard to imagine any other solitary animal capable of a tiger's ambitious and intelligent savagery ... " ('The tiger', pp. 140).

My guess is male Amur tigers do not hunt adult male brown bears. They fight them at times. My guess is quite many fights will go all the way. In the sixties of the last century, Russian biologists apparently concluded male brown bears win most fights with male Amur tigers 'on points'. I tend to agree. If it would be the other way round, brown bears in southeast Russia would be in serious trouble.   


To finish the post

Here's a few photographs taken in the facility mentioned above. This is tiger 'Arames', the longest of the 3 males I measured. The director is on the right. The big man left, blind, wanted to touch the tigers and he did. To give you an idea about the size of the tiger. The blind man was well over 250 pounds:

*This image is copyright of its original author

This is the director instructing participants of a workshop. The tigers are Amurs. They seem a bit larger than they were, because of the wooden floor in the cage:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

An adult male lion and 3 Amur tigers close together. I never heard of any problems: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

Hope you like the forum. Feel free to post and so long,

Peter.

(03-11-2017, 01:33 PM)Spalea Wrote: After having told, page 81, that "Tigers have a far more delicate constitution than lions", (?) Alex Kerr added, page 130, that "A tiger nearly always win a fight with a lion"... I don't know what to think, but that doesn't seem to be coherent. The tigers despite their fragile constitution will rule over all the big cats of the world ? A question of personality perhaps...

Quote:@Haymaker 
By saying this, it taints his overall opinion on this subject. He also doesn't say whether he's actually seen Khan beat Atlas he just says he thinks that Khan will defend his tigresses, yet we know lions are more aggressive to defend females. The other question would be, how many different tigers and lions did he mix, and for how many acts or years did he do this.  Or did he switch to an all tiger act for most of his career?

My question would be, are there any mixed lion tiger trainers that back the tiger, that aren't admittedly bias for the tiger.  I think that's an interesting question.

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