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RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 11-02-2023
(11-02-2023, 03:54 AM)peter Wrote: Guate
When you and Apex started the discussion, I proposed to continue in the tiger extinction thread. The main reason is that thread has more views, meaning it's likely the discussion will reach most of those interested. Another reason is the tiger extinction thread has a more diverse character. A discussion would fit in nicely, especially if it's about wild tigers in general, biologists and methods.
Both you and Apex ignored the proposal. A pity, as this thread is about wild Amur tigers. My proposal, again, is to keep it that way.
I'll respond to your post in the tiger extinction thread tomorrow. My request (referring to Guate and Apex) is to wait for that post before continuing.
I can garantee you that I will not continue this discussion here. My last post summarize all I wanted to say about this. Besides, there are new figures of Bengal and Amur tigers so there is more work to do than just dragging this discussion.
RE: Amur Tigers - TheHyenid76 - 12-15-2023
Images from "Mammals of the USSR and Adjacent Countries" by S.I Ognev Original Russian "Звери СССР и прилежащих стран (звери Восточной Европы и Северной Азии)"
Ognev's book has been completely translated to English but only the volume on rodents is available on the Internet. In case, anyone here understands Russian, you can download the djvu file from Zoomet.ru and then convert it to PDF. The images are of Caspian tigers and Amur tigers in Korea.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Amur Tigers - TheHyenid76 - 12-21-2023
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
- John Goodrich, Ph.D. Chief Scientist; Director, Tiger Program
*This image is copyright of its original author
In this blog, Panthera Tiger Program Director Dr. John Goodrich transports us to the snowy regions of northeast Asia — the home of wolves, bears, leopards and Siberian tigers. After stumbling upon a shocking tiger kill, he recounts how he began to understand the complex relationship between tigers and bears in this challenging environment. Navigate the snowy oak forests with Dr. Goodrich as he brings to light the important conservation implications of these interactions.
A few decades ago, when I lived and worked in northeast Asia, I was tracking a male tiger named Dima that we had captured and fitted with a radio collar a few months before. He was the biggest tiger we would catch in 20 years of research in the area, and at 455 lbs, the circumference of his head was bigger than my waist and the base of his tail was as thick as my thigh. He had been moving through an area where people had summer gardens and grazed cattle, so I was having a look around to make sure he wasn’t getting himself into trouble. But what I found that day blew my mind.
I followed his tracks in light patches of early spring snow. Here — we saw he meandered through a park-like oak forest. And there — suddenly, as he approached the edge of a steep embankment, his tracks became spaced very close together. He crouched into a stalk. And when I looked over the embankment, I was shocked. Before me was a large, partially-eaten brown bear sow.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I jumped down to examine the carcass and immediately noted a single, bloody hole in her neck that was clearly an entry wound. Her tracks showed that she had ambled along the base of the embankment and seemed to suddenly fall down dead, with no sign of the struggle one would expect from a huge tiger killing a bear nearly his own size. I concluded the bear had been shot and Dima just took advantage of a free meal, but why hadn’t the hunter claimed such a valuable prize? Then I turned the bear over to inspect the exit would. To my surprise, I found two more entry wounds! I revised my conclusion — Dima had leapt from the bank onto the bear, dispatching her with a single bite to the nape of her neck, almost before she was even aware of his presence (one of his canine teeth had broken prior to our capturing him, hence only three bite wounds). The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable. I collected some samples and vacated the area, hoping Dima would return to finish his meal, which he did, though it took him several days to devour such a large animal.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fascinated, I went home and began combing through local literature and speaking with my colleagues on the subject. There were numerous reports of tigers preying on both brown bears and Asiatic black bears, but the relationship, it seems, was not that simple; there were also reports of bears killing tigers. As the years progressed and we tracked both bears and tigers, the picture of a complex relationship emerged. The largest brown bears — and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area — would usurp kills from tigers and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!). In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but when the tigress returned hungry and the bear’s stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat. Once, my colleague Ivan came home from tracking a tigress and told the story of how it spent the better part of a day trying unsuccessfully to pull a black bear with cubs from her winter den.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear. Why did Dima take such risks? Bears are among the most powerful animals I know, with formidable teeth and claws. Wouldn’t sticking to red deer and sika deer make more sense? While we will never know for sure, I suspect his predation on bears served another purpose than just filling his belly. Likely, he was taking out the competition — the same animals that might kill his cubs or steal the kills of one of the three tigresses with which he shared his territory.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Understanding these types of relationships is important to conservation. For example, if we are working to recover tigers, what are the implications of bears taking their kills (reduced energy intake might mean lower survival of tigers and their cubs)? What impacts will tigers have on bear (and wolf) populations? Amur tigers have recovered from an estimated 40 individuals in the wild about 75 years ago to an estimated 400 today. But during that time, for instance, the local wolf population has plummeted, likely due to displacement and predation by tigers. We don’t want another species to go extinct due to our recovering tigers. While this has not been a concern because both wolves and bears are widely distributed across Eurasia, it is a concern in the southern region where the world’s remaining 40 or so Amur leopards overlap with tigers. Indeed, during our work there, a tiger did kill a leopard. Research in India has shown potentially significant impacts of tigers on leopard abundance and behavior, and that will be the subject of a future blog post. But in the snowy forests of Asia, far at the northern edge of the tiger's range, I saw firsthand the dance between two massive predators — bears and tigers. It was a dance that resulted in death, food, struggle — and for me, insight. Now, I could better understand what it means to protect not only tigers, but all animals.
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 01-10-2024
(11-01-2023, 04:02 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(10-30-2023, 07:46 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Why wasn't the Himalayan black bear included in this chart? The Himalayan (Ussuri black) bear is classified as a 'large predator' too. It is the 3rd largest predator after the tiger and brown bear.
Brown bears don't pose any "serious competition" to tigers for resources because the vast majority of their diet is plant-based, they rarely or occasionally hunt. Brown bears only serve as commensal animals (mostly scavenging on left-over tiger kills) and a prey item of tigers.
And the specific subspecies of wolf that's native to the Ussuri region is the Mongolian grey wolf, not the Himalayan/Tibetan wolf. The latter subspecies is not found in the Amur-Ussuri regions of Russia, but is from the Himalayan range, Tibetan Plateau and the mountains of Central Asia. Although the Mongolian grey wolf and Himalayan wolf are genetically the same wolf, they are recognized as a different subspecies.
Map showing the range of the Mongolian wolf (blue) and the Himalayan wolf (pink) in China and surrounding countries:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
* Why wasn't the Himalayan black bear included in this chart?
Too few measurements. So I decided to focus in all the felids in the area and left the two largest non-felids predators.
* Brown bears don't pose any "serious competition" to tigers?
Bears steal some tiger's prey, so they are a serious competition, specialy if they can kill it too.
* About the subspecies of wolf:
Depending of the source, people clasify the wolf popultions in different subspecies and they location vary.
Gibson (1999) clasified all the wolves of the area as Eurasian wolves and separet them from the Eurasian tundra wolf, although she did not use any specific name for the population in her book.
*This image is copyright of its original author
In Wikipedia (which is popularly used) they shared several maps, conflictive information on them:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
But in the article of subspecies of wolves, for the Ussuri region they are clasified as C. l. chanco:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Check that the scientific name used by Heptner et al. (1998), which is C. l. tschiliensis, is sinonimized with C. l. chanco too:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, Castelló (2018) include the wolves of this area with C. l. chanco:
*This image is copyright of its original author
There you go.....
You don't know what "serious competition" means. Brown bears only to a certain extent can pose some competition to tigers, but this is mostly done by scavenging the tigers left-overs. Research and studies show that even large adult male brown bears rarely contest a tigress for her kill. In the vast majority of cases, even a big male brown bear will wait for the tigress to finish eating, leave the vicinity, then he'll move in and scavenges or "steals" the kill. This is not serious competition, even small predators scavenge kills from much larger predators.
Add to this fact, that there's not a single case in the last 30 years of a brown bear killing even a little tiger cub. Like I said before, brown bears serve as commensal animals and are a prey item of the tiger. So they very clearly pose no serious competition.
The only predator that could have posed some serious competition to the Amur tiger for prey is wolves, especially large packs. But wolves highly fear tigers and flee to other regions to avoid decimation by tigers.
Amur tigers have no serious competitors at all and they hunt, kill and eat all other predators of the taiga.
And as we see here, even adult brown bears will run away from a tigress:
RE: Amur Tigers - Pckts - 01-11-2024
This is nonsense, we have numerous verified accounts of Bears displacing, defeating or stale mating Tigers. You really think a larger Brown isn't going to do the same thing a Sloth Bear or Himalayan Black Bear has done?
Even your claim about wolves is based off of limited information, the same way a wolf pack can contest a large brown bear on a kill they can absolutely do the same to Tiger. It's no different than Hyenas relationships with Lions, can they displace a Large male, probably not but they certainly could pester and definitely give a female or youngster a tough time.
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 01-11-2024
(01-11-2024, 01:08 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is nonsense, we have numerous verified accounts of Bears displacing, defeating or stale mating Tigers. You really think a larger Brown isn't going to do the same thing a Sloth Bear or Himalayan Black Bear has done?
Even your claim about wolves is based off of limited information, the same way a wolf pack can contest a large brown bear on a kill they can absolutely do the same to Tiger. It's no different than Hyenas relationships with Lions, can they displace a Large male, probably not but they certainly could pester and definitely give a female or youngster a tough time.
Nonsense?? Did you even read my post properly? I was talking about brown bears not giving serious competition to tigers. Not once did I say or imply that a large brown bear is not capable of displacing, defeating or stale-mating a tiger. Don't twist my words. A predominantly vegetarian predator is never gonna give any competition to a similar-sized hyper-carnivorous APEX predator, which is also the brown bears own natural predator.
How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.
Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.
The last time a tiger (moderate-sized individual) and a big male brown bear recently clashed in a serious fight, the bear was killed and eaten.
And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.
The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do.
My claim about wolves is based on plenty of research and observations from field biologists, zoologists, rangers and hunters. For over 50 years now, various Russian biologists have reported that wolves actively avoid tiger territories because tigers will viciously seek out and kill wolves whenever the opportunity arises. Evidence & research suggests that tigers depress wolf populations to the point of localized extinction or to such low numbers as to make them functionally insignificant in the ecosystem.
This is why today in all of the nature reserves that have Amur tigers, wolves are very rare or completely non-existent in those areas.
Also, there's not a single case of even a large wolf pack contesting even a female or young tiger for its kill. None, whatsoever. The huge difference is, wolves don't fear big male brown bears and will often challenge them, but they highly fear tigers of both sexes. Large adult brown bears will tolerate wolves and in many cases, flee from wolves, whereas tigers completely dominate wolves, reduce their numbers, and will attack and kill wolves without hesitation. Tigers and bears have a completely different nature and mindset.
How can you possibly compare Hyena-Lion relations to Amur tiger-wolves relations? Now that's nonsense. There's plenty of videos, documentaries and accounts of hyena's displacing and chasing away multiple lions, even treeing lions and attacking them. Is there the same when it comes to tigers and wolves? No.
And when it comes to dealing with bears, the Amur tiger and Bengal tiger have a different mindset to each other. The Russian tiger is much more bolder, aggressive, and experienced in this regard.
RE: Amur Tigers - Pckts - 01-11-2024
(01-11-2024, 07:22 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:(01-11-2024, 01:08 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is nonsense, we have numerous verified accounts of Bears displacing, defeating or stale mating Tigers. You really think a larger Brown isn't going to do the same thing a Sloth Bear or Himalayan Black Bear has done?
Even your claim about wolves is based off of limited information, the same way a wolf pack can contest a large brown bear on a kill they can absolutely do the same to Tiger. It's no different than Hyenas relationships with Lions, can they displace a Large male, probably not but they certainly could pester and definitely give a female or youngster a tough time.
Nonsense?? Did you even read my post properly? I was talking about brown bears not giving serious competition to tigers. Not once did I say or imply that a large brown bear is not capable of displacing, defeating or stale-mating a tiger. Don't twist my words. A predominantly vegetarian predator is never gonna give any competition to a similar-sized hyper-carnivorous APEX predator, which is also the brown bears own natural predator.
How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.
Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.
The last time a tiger (moderate-sized individual) and a big male brown bear recently clashed in a serious fight, the bear was killed and eaten.
And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.
The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do.
My claim about wolves is based on plenty of research and observations from field biologists, zoologists, rangers and hunters. For over 50 years now, various Russian biologists have reported that wolves actively avoid tiger territories because tigers will viciously seek out and kill wolves whenever the opportunity arises. Evidence & research suggests that tigers depress wolf populations to the point of localized extinction or to such low numbers as to make them functionally insignificant in the ecosystem.
This is why today in all of the nature reserves that have Amur tigers, wolves are very rare or completely non-existent in those areas.
Also, there's not a single case of even a large wolf pack contesting even a female or young tiger for its kill. None, whatsoever. The huge difference is, wolves don't fear big male brown bears and will challenge them, but they highly fear tigers of both sexes. Brown bears will tolerate wolves and in some cases, run from them, whereas tigers completely dominate wolves, reduce their numbers, and will attack and kill wolves without hesitation. Tigers and bears have a completely different nature and mindset.
How can you possibly compare Hyena-Lion relations to Amur tiger-wolves relations? Now that's nonsense. There's plenty of videos, documentaries and accounts of hyena's displacing and chasing away multiple lions, even treeing lions and attacking them. Is there the same when it comes to tigers and wolves? No.
And when it comes to dealing with bears, the Amur tiger and Bengal tiger have a different mindset to each other. The Russian tiger is much more bolder, aggressive, and experienced in this regard.
And again, it's nonsense.
Miquelle and Petruneko determined 18% of Tiger kills were used by Bears and more specifically at least 8 cases of Tigrers being displaced by Bears on these kills with an estimated more than recorded.
Quote:How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.
Kailash Sankhala
Tiger
Pg 117
"In Ramnagar Division of Uttar Pradesh bears have been found poaching tiger kills."
Thapar
speaking on bears
"sometimes feed on carrion and have been known to chase tigers off kills"
And this is for a bear that very rarely actually feeds on meat but how many videos do we have of Bears chasing Tigers?
Male, female, mating pair, it doesn't matter, the Bear has been able to displace them. A Sloth bear is relatively slow, smaller than it's brown cousin and makes noise when it walks through yet it's able to live in Tiger dense forests, why do you think that is?
It's an absolute risk for any Tiger to attempt on, not saying they cant fall victim but a big male bear is going to be a match for any male Tiger with the no way of knowing what the outcome would be.
Quote:Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
Nonsense
Quote:"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.You mean he attempted a predation and failed to kill a small Female then was driven away.
Quote:And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.Much more of the same
The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do.
You're speaking in absolutes and running round in circles, you misinterpret studies while disregarding actual first hand encounters or making up behavioral conclusions without any valid evidence to back it.
It's going nowhere, there's too much fanatical opinions being tossed around as fact.
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 01-18-2024
(01-11-2024, 10:40 PM)Pckts Wrote:(01-11-2024, 07:22 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:(01-11-2024, 01:08 AM)Pckts Wrote: This is nonsense, we have numerous verified accounts of Bears displacing, defeating or stale mating Tigers. You really think a larger Brown isn't going to do the same thing a Sloth Bear or Himalayan Black Bear has done?
Even your claim about wolves is based off of limited information, the same way a wolf pack can contest a large brown bear on a kill they can absolutely do the same to Tiger. It's no different than Hyenas relationships with Lions, can they displace a Large male, probably not but they certainly could pester and definitely give a female or youngster a tough time.
Nonsense?? Did you even read my post properly? I was talking about brown bears not giving serious competition to tigers. Not once did I say or imply that a large brown bear is not capable of displacing, defeating or stale-mating a tiger. Don't twist my words. A predominantly vegetarian predator is never gonna give any competition to a similar-sized hyper-carnivorous APEX predator, which is also the brown bears own natural predator.
How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.
Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.
The last time a tiger (moderate-sized individual) and a big male brown bear recently clashed in a serious fight, the bear was killed and eaten.
And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.
The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do.
My claim about wolves is based on plenty of research and observations from field biologists, zoologists, rangers and hunters. For over 50 years now, various Russian biologists have reported that wolves actively avoid tiger territories because tigers will viciously seek out and kill wolves whenever the opportunity arises. Evidence & research suggests that tigers depress wolf populations to the point of localized extinction or to such low numbers as to make them functionally insignificant in the ecosystem.
This is why today in all of the nature reserves that have Amur tigers, wolves are very rare or completely non-existent in those areas.
Also, there's not a single case of even a large wolf pack contesting even a female or young tiger for its kill. None, whatsoever. The huge difference is, wolves don't fear big male brown bears and will challenge them, but they highly fear tigers of both sexes. Brown bears will tolerate wolves and in some cases, run from them, whereas tigers completely dominate wolves, reduce their numbers, and will attack and kill wolves without hesitation. Tigers and bears have a completely different nature and mindset.
How can you possibly compare Hyena-Lion relations to Amur tiger-wolves relations? Now that's nonsense. There's plenty of videos, documentaries and accounts of hyena's displacing and chasing away multiple lions, even treeing lions and attacking them. Is there the same when it comes to tigers and wolves? No.
And when it comes to dealing with bears, the Amur tiger and Bengal tiger have a different mindset to each other. The Russian tiger is much more bolder, aggressive, and experienced in this regard.
And again, it's nonsense.
Miquelle and Petruneko determined 18% of Tiger kills were used by Bears and more specifically at least 8 cases of Tigrers being displaced by Bears on these kills with an estimated more than recorded.
Quote:How many times has a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear ever contested a tiger for its kill? Or displaced a tiger? How many cases throughout history? Aside from Jim Corbett's highly exceptional singular account, there's none...zero.
Kailash Sankhala
Tiger
Pg 117
"In Ramnagar Division of Uttar Pradesh bears have been found poaching tiger kills."
Thapar
speaking on bears
"sometimes feed on carrion and have been known to chase tigers off kills"
And this is for a bear that very rarely actually feeds on meat but how many videos do we have of Bears chasing Tigers?
Male, female, mating pair, it doesn't matter, the Bear has been able to displace them. A Sloth bear is relatively slow, smaller than it's brown cousin and makes noise when it walks through yet it's able to live in Tiger dense forests, why do you think that is?
It's an absolute risk for any Tiger to attempt on, not saying they cant fall victim but a big male bear is going to be a match for any male Tiger with the no way of knowing what the outcome would be.
Quote:Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
Nonsense
Quote:"Defeating" mostly young juvenile tigers and females in short little skirmishes does not count as a sloth bear "defeating" a tiger in a proper fight. That's ridiculous. The Matkusar case was a rare exception, had he continued to fight, he would have certainly killed and eaten the bear. He was never in any danger at all and almost looked like he was toying with the bear.You mean he attempted a predation and failed to kill a small Female then was driven away.
Quote:And stop comparing Bengal tiger-bear relations to Amur tiger-bear relations. Amur tigers are far more aggressive towards bears and hunt them at a much greater frequency than Bengal tigers do. Bears are actually one of the Amur tigers favourite food, whereas Bengal tigers predominantly hunt large ungulate prey animals. And that's why there's much more accounts of Amur tigers killing and eating brown bears and Himalayan black bears than Bengal tigers killing sloth bears/Himalayan black bears. It's simply not comparable.Much more of the same
The bears of the Russian Far East face a much greater threat and danger from tigers than sloth bears do.
You're speaking in absolutes and running round in circles, you misinterpret studies while disregarding actual first hand encounters or making up behavioral conclusions without any valid evidence to back it.
It's going nowhere, there's too much fanatical opinions being tossed around as fact.
Quote:And again, it's nonsense.
Miquelle and Petruneko determined 18% of Tiger kills were used by Bears and more specifically at least 8 cases of Tigrers being displaced by Bears on these kills with an estimated more than recorded.
This is ridiculous. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Key word: "USED". What does that mean? Oh yes, bears primarily scavenging on tiger kills. Correction, at least 8 cases of female tigers being displaced by bears in a period of 1992-2013. Even if there were slightly more cases, that's nothing. It's still a rarity. Where's the serious competition??
The same biologists (as well as other STP biologists) report that the most typical case was when bears fed on the tigers left-overs after it had already left the vicinity. Large male brown bears do not risk contesting adult male tigers for their kills, it's simply too risky and too dangerous for the bear.
During their entire study period (1992-2013, and even till today) STP biologists never found a single case of even a huge male brown bear displacing an adult male tiger, let alone contesting an adult male tiger for his kill. Nothing, zero cases. Again, where's the serious competition??
The fact is, it's quite rare for an adult male brown bear to contest even a tigress for her kill. In vast majority of cases, the bear will patiently wait for the tigress to finish eating, leave the vicinity and then he'll move in and "steal" or "use" her kill by scavenging on her left-overs. This is exactly what extensive scientific research shows.
And as biologist Goodrich mentioned in his recent article, when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, the brown bear would yield to the tigress.
Quote:Kailash Sankhala
Tiger
Pg 117
"In Ramnagar Division of Uttar Pradesh bears have been found poaching tiger kills."
Thapar
speaking on bears
"sometimes feed on carrion and have been known to chase tigers off kills"
Sankhala said: "poaching tiger kills" which clearly refers to sloth bears scavenging on tiger kills. He never said ANYTHING about sloth bears "displacing" tigers from kills or contesting them. You're twisting his words.
I can give you countless examples of leopards, jackals, vultures etc, "poaching lion kills". So? That proves absolutely nothing.
And yet Thapar never gave a single example or specific account of a sloth bear "chasing" a tiger off its kill. Bengal tigers and sloth bears get filmed all the time, their interactions get documented all the time, every year thousands of tourists go on safari in India, so why isn't there a single account recorded in history (old times & modern times) of a sloth bear ever displacing a tiger from its kill? Just show me one single specific account? Just one?
In fact, just show me a single account of an adult sloth bear displacing even a juvenile tiger from its kill? Or even having the guts to attempt it?
Also note, Valmik Thapar in all his several decades of field experience, has never witnessed a single instance of a sloth bear contesting any tiger (male, female, or juveniles) for its kill, let alone chasing them off.
And here's the full context of Thapar's statement that you posted: "Although it must be admitted that the tiger usually comes off better in these encounters."
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9Dvx6EoLwa4C&pg=PA246&dq=although+it+must+be+admitted+that+the+tiger+usually+comes+off+better+in+these+encounters&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjezJrJkJrnAhUVHMAKHVegDZAQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=although%20it%20must%20be%20admitted%20that%20the%20tiger%20usually%20comes%20off%20better%20in%20these%20encounters&f=false
Quote:And this is for a bear that very rarely actually feeds on meat but how many videos do we have of Bears chasing Tigers?
Male, female, mating pair, it doesn't matter, the Bear has been able to displace them. A Sloth bear is relatively slow, smaller than it's brown cousin and makes noise when it walks through yet it's able to live in Tiger dense forests, why do you think that is?
It's an absolute risk for any Tiger to attempt on, not saying they cant fall victim but a big male bear is going to be a match for any male Tiger with the no way of knowing what the outcome would be.
Stop pretending. Most of the videos show sloth bears chasing away young juvenile tigers or tigresses. But there's also many videos and accounts showing vice versa. Add to this, there are numerous accounts of tigresses actually KILLING and eating sloth bears, and what about vice versa? Nothing, zero cases.
That's a completely pointless argument and question. Both brown bears and Himalayan black bears are able to live in tiger dense forests, despite being hunted and killed on a regular basis by tigers. So? Gaurs, wild buffaloes, wild boar, sambar etc, are all able to live in tiger dense forests despite being actively killed and eaten by tigers. Yes, sloth bears can live in tiger dense forests, but that doesn't negate the fact that they can be hunted and killed at any frequency by tigers, with some tigers becoming habitual sloth bear killers.
Your last statement was a joke. A big male sloth bear would get annihilated every single time in a serious fight against any male tiger. We have a very recent account of a medium-sized male tiger destroying a larger, full-grown adult male brown bear in a fight, and you actually think a big male sloth bear would be a match for any tiger! Are you serious??!
In a proper fight, a big male sloth bear would get killed and eaten by a tigress, let alone a male tiger.
Like I said before, throughout history, statistics and fight accounts easily refute your laughable statement. Once again, in every single case, ever, of a fight to the death between a tiger and a sloth bear or Himalayan black bear, the bears were killed and devoured in every single case.
In a death match, even against the largest male sloth bears, the outcome is easy to predict because it's a total mismatch. The tiger will be eating the bear for lunch. This is what history and evidence consistently shows over and over again.
You're grossly exaggerating the sloth bears capabilities.
Quote:Quote:Defeated? What? How many cases throughout history are there of sloth bears and Himalayan black bears "defeating" tigers in serious fights? Every single fight to the death recorded in all of history resulted in the bears getting killed and devoured. Its a mismatch. Only the larger brown bears, in very rare cases, have actually managed to kill a tiger, and even then, there are only 12, very old outdated cases (only females & young tigers killed) from the last century. Nothing from the last 30+ years.
Nonsense
OK, so you have ZERO evidence to prove otherwise. Good.
You know my statement is pure facts.
And you do realize that just because you said its "nonsense" doesn't automatically turn facts and reality into "nonsense", right?
Quote:You mean he attempted a predation and failed to kill a small Female then was driven away.
You know this statement is clearly false and yet you still stated this nonsense for the sake of argument. Or either you haven't got a clue how tigers or any big cat hunts.
Since when did tigers casually walk right up to a bear or any animal face-to-face in a nonchalant manner when hunting them?
It was very clear that Matkasur was NOT hunting the bear. He initially wanted to keep her away from the watering hole (which he succeeded in), the bear was afraid and panicked, the encounter then turned into a fight, in which Matkasur easily over-powered the bear and almost looked like he was toying with her, then, the sloth bear who was totally terrified inside and is fighting for its life, managed to discourage and fend off Matkasur's attack and drive him away. In the end, the bears fled back into the jungle, whereas the tiger succeeded and kept the watering hole to himself.
That was an exceptional case and that's why it went so viral because the bear luckily managed to survive and escape death.
If Matkasur was determined to kill, that bear was a goner and you know it.
Quote:Much more of the same
You're speaking in absolutes and running round in circles, you misinterpret studies while disregarding actual first hand encounters or making up behavioral conclusions without any valid evidence to back it.
It's going nowhere, there's too much fanatical opinions being tossed around as fact.
This is comical. Misinterpret what studies? So all those field biologists are talking bullsh*t? I have posted an abundance of factual information, data, studies and accounts from various major authorities and biologists that CONFIRMS everything I said.
The studies from the same biologists you referenced above (Miquelle, Petrenenko) have also reported the same thing. So what the hell are you talking about?
What I said about the frequency difference of tiger predation on bears and behavioral differences between Amur and Bengal tigers is a pure, complete, established fact backed up by countless evidence which I've posted on this forum and other forums. Stop pretending and be real here.
And lastly, you're the one tossing around "fanatical opinions" without a shred of any valid evidence to back it by ridiculously claiming that a big male sloth bear is a match for any tiger. Where's your evidence?
At best, the largest male sloth bears and Himalayan black bears can only fend off a tiger attack, but in a serious fight, the big male bears are getting slaughtered and devoured every time:
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://archive.org/details/wildbeastsstud00port/mode/2up
Tiger hunts down and chases a large male sloth bear, pulls him off the tree and kills and eats the bear after a fight:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I challenge you to show me vice versa?
RE: Amur Tigers - Pckts - 01-19-2024
More of the same…
there is an entire catalog of videos and accounts of Bears chasing off Tigers. In fact, far more of Bears willing to engage with Tigers than the other way around.
The excuse that “if” a Tiger wanted to it’d devour and kill any bear holds no water since when the attack starts the Tiger intends to kill, it’s only after that it decides to relinquish, not the other way round. Bears don’t get to choose when the fight is off, they aren’t fast enough to escape.
A perfect example of your fanaticism is the last account you are asking me to challenge?
Do you think a 2nd hand account from a hunter "hearing" about an encounter is fact?
Almost every “account” you post isn’t first hand, it’s guess work or interpretation or 2nd hand “someone” told me.
This is your M.O.
You post these absurd stories then make interpretations or claims based off of your preference without even understanding the lack of factual evidence that exists in them.
You then have your claim turned on its head and you change the goal post to another absurd claim.
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 02-01-2024
(01-19-2024, 12:35 AM)Pckts Wrote: More of the same…
there is an entire catalog of videos and accounts of Bears chasing off Tigers. In fact, far more of Bears willing to engage with Tigers than the other way around.
The excuse that “if” a Tiger wanted to it’d devour and kill any bear holds no water since when the attack starts the Tiger intends to kill, it’s only after that it decides to relinquish, not the other way round. Bears don’t get to choose when the fight is off, they aren’t fast enough to escape.
A perfect example of your fanaticism is the last account you are asking me to challenge?
Do you think a 2nd hand account from a hunter "hearing" about an encounter is fact?
Almost every “account” you post isn’t first hand, it’s guess work or interpretation or 2nd hand “someone” told me.
This is your M.O.
You post these absurd stories then make interpretations or claims based off of your preference without even understanding the lack of factual evidence that exists in them.
You then have your claim turned on its head and you change the goal post to another absurd claim.
This was a true face palm moment! I cannot believe that you of all people actually had the nerve and audacity to state this. With all honesty and seriousness, you're a extremely arrogant and ignorant person who clearly hasn't got a clue about tiger-bear relations. Your posts are full of blatant lies and false, empty claims.
You deliberately turn a blind eye to all the 1st hand accounts and evidence I posted and just continue to state nonsense. So direct statements and accounts from experienced biologists are 2nd hand? scientific studies and research from field biologists is 2nd hand? Accounts from experienced forest rangers who personally examined the kill-sites is 2nd hand?? What the hell are you talking about? You're spouting absolute nonsense and lies.
Funny how you say there's an "entire catalog of videos and accounts of bears chasing off tigers" and yet there's even a MUCH, MUCH LARGER catalog of accounts of tigers slaughtering brown bears, black bears and sloth bears. Actual kill accounts! No comparison whatsoever. Not to mention the plenty of accounts & videos of tigers chasing off bears too, as well as the recent video of an adult brown bear fleeing from a tigress!
The fact is, no matter how much factual evidence and authentic accounts I post, you'll just keep making lame excuses and arrogantly dismiss them, simply because it doesn't suit your views and agenda, period.
You even indirectly called bullsh*t on biologists Karanth and Sunquist's research, conclusions and accounts of tigers killing 1000 kg bull gaurs. Which was ridiculous and pathetic. Thats just one example. Remember one important thing, your ignorance, arrogance, bias and ridiculous skepticism will NEVER refute or change reality and truth.
Who made you the expert?? Who are you to determine what "factual evidence" is compared to an actual field biologist, zoologist, experienced hunter, forest ranger??
"Absurd stories"? Which stories??!! Show me? Why are they "absurd"?? Because a big male sloth bear got destroyed and devoured by a tiger, while you have ZERO evidence to show me vice versa?? Is that why?
My "claim turned on its head"?? LMAO! Which claim?? What on earth are you on about? You have proven nothing, zilch! Where's your evidence?? I'm still waiting!!
I easily debunked the statements you posted from Thapar and Sankhala. All you do is constantly make false claim after false claim without a shred of evidence to back it up.
Go on, if I'm wrong, answer my questions and post evidence to back-up your nonsensical claims then??
Show me a single account of a big male sloth bear killing any tiger in a fight?? Show me a single account of a sloth bear contesting even a juvenile tiger cub for its kill?? Show me a single account of ANY bear species killing a similar-sized tiger in a fight? Go on, prove all your lies and claims?
I can post several videos of full-grown adult sloth bears retreating and running from even juvenile tigers.
And all those videos of sloth bears chasing off mostly juvenile/female tigers doesn't negate nor compare to all the TONS of accounts throughout history of tigers killing and eating sloth bears of all sizes, genders and ages.
Here's another account from a reliable source of a Bengal tiger that killed and completely consumed a large bear:
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://archive.org/details/JournalOfTheBombayNaturalHistorySociety4_2/page/n1/mode/2up?q=bear+killed+by+tiger
Let the lame excuses begin.
RE: Amur Tigers - Pckts - 02-01-2024
Just stop, your fanaticism and lack of comprehension from the studies you desperately try to twist into a vs debate without actually reading them is pathetic.
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 02-06-2024
(02-01-2024, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just stop, your fanaticism and lack of comprehension from the studies you desperately try to twist into a vs debate without actually reading them is pathetic.
Do you even read or understand what you write??! Seriously, you sound ridiculous, completely delusional and confused.
You never posted a single shred of evidence to support your hilarious false claims about tiger-sloth bear relations, despite being asked repeatedly. That says it all. Typical signs of a liar.
So mine and the actual BIOLOGISTS and experts comprehension of the studies (which agree with each other) is wrong, but your comprehension is right?? The same guy who's just a random forum poster, who's completely unqualified, never in his entire life worked with or studied wild tigers in the field, and continuously makes false and ridiculous claims without ever posting a shred of evidence to back it. Is that what you're saying? You know more than the actual field biologists, researchers and scientists who conducted those studies and made those conclusions??
You're in complete denial of reality and proven facts. Very sad to see people these days sink this low.
RE: Amur Tigers - Duco Ndona - 02-07-2024
Can we please drop this fighting and get back on topic.
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 01:35 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Can we please drop this fighting and get back on topic.
ALL
The job of every member of Wildfact is to find good info and to add reliable sources. What other members do with the info posted, is up to them. Information can be discussed, but remember a discussion should be based on a respectful exchange of arguments. The aim of a discussion is to answer a question, not something else.
PC
You're one of the few who saw wild jaguars, lions and tigers in their natural habitat. You posted extensively about your experiences. Your posts were well written, accurate and appreciated. This, however, doesn't mean the information you collected can be extended to all wild jaguars, lions and tigers. If there's one thing that emerged from countless observations and studies, it's the notion that apex predators are opportunistic individuals able to adapt to the conditions they face. Members of forums often focus on the fysical abilities of big cats, but the abilities developed in the top floor are as interesting, if not more so.
Using the info you collected, you could decide for, say, a hypothesis and try to find info enabling you to get to a conclusion. For some reason, you decided against it and opted for interaction. Although you know not one of the discussions you joined produced something of interest, you didn't change your policy. The question is why.
From a distance, I'd say you lost your interest in posting. If so, the advice is to take a break and read a few good books. Whatever you decide, don't continue in the way you do.
Apex
It's a fact you found new information about the way tigers and bears interact in the Russian Far East. Your effort resulted in an invitation to post in the tiger extinction thread. That thread enables you to reach a small crowd. Most of your contributions are appreciated, but most isnt all. I'm in particular referring to posts in which you address those involved in severe preference. Posts of his nature do not fit the thread. That's still apart of countless other problems and rule violations. You know, as I told you more than once. Although you said you would take the advice serious, you still use every opportunity to enter a discussion. Ask yourslf why that is.
As to tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. Although the culture seems to be different in the RFE (meaning tigers hunt bears more often than in southeastern Asia), tigers and brown bears seem to coexist in most districts. In fact, both seem to thrive. For (indirect) confirmation, watch the videos recently posted at You Tube. Not seldom, you'll see tigers and bears walking the same trail only minutes apart.
Serious confrontations between brown bears and tigers seem to be a result of circumstances, individuality and, perhaps, chance. Adult males of both species compete, but there's a big difference between competitors and 'mortal enemies'. Although adult male brown bears are taller and more robust (heavier), tigers have advantages in other departments. All in all, one, like bears and tigers, could conclude they roughly compare.
My advice is to drop the focus on males and to move to other aspects of the ecology of tigers and brown bears. There's a lot to learn. Whatever you do, stay away from absolute statements and everything else suggesting you could be an expert. And when members discuss your posts, let it be.
To conclude
In spite of the rules, discussions still erupt at regular intervals. Not seldom, interactions of this nature have a negative effect on members, mods and readers. Duco isn't the only one who's had enough.
This is the last time I invested time in fixing a problem that could have been avoided. Meaning we're done with those using the credit they have to do as they please. From now on, the rules will be applied no matter what.
This post is a warning. The advice to both members mentioned in this post is to take a break from posting. The proposal is at least two weeks. More than enough time to read a new article. I recommend 'Phenotypic plasticity determines differences between the skulls of tigers from mainland Asia' (Cooper et al., 2022). It has a dataset.
No replies and no PM's, if you please. Thread closed for a week.
RE: Amur Tigers - Apex Titan - 03-12-2024
Wild male Amur tiger: (Photo: Sergey Gorshkov)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Male tiger in Bikin National Park:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A bulky looking male:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Adult male tiger from Anyuisky National Park:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Amur tigress looking directly into the camera trap in the Legend of Udege National Park:
*This image is copyright of its original author