(09-10-2018, 08:33 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: To be honest, Ngandong tiger may not as huge as we image, the largest felines in history were prehistoric lions and giant machairodontinaes .

(09-10-2018, 08:41 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: Panthera atrox in South America has left the fur record, and new studies showed that they may left the hunting record

(09-10-2018, 05:43 PM)peter Wrote: This skull is from a 4-year old male Amur tiger. The tiger was shot by the director of the Koln zoo (Germany) after he had killed a keeper. The article was discussed in the tiger thread not so long ago. Watch the scale of 125 mm. just below the skull and tell me what you think:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(09-10-2018, 06:59 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: In fact, that giant mandible was dated around 50 kya, but it is closer to the modern tiger morphologically.

Since the formation of the modern tiger subspecies was occurred after the Toba eruption which was dated 75 kya.

I now start to believe that those antiquated tiger subspecies like Ngandong tiger and Wanhsien tiger were dated before the Toba eruption, while the modern tiger subspecies after.

(09-10-2018, 09:44 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-10-2018, 05:43 PM)peter Wrote: This skull is from a 4-year old male Amur tiger. The tiger was shot by the director of the Koln zoo (Germany) after he had killed a keeper. The article was discussed in the tiger thread not so long ago. Watch the scale of 125 mm. just below the skull and tell me what you think:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wow, this is a BIG tiger skull. I guess that is from a captive specimen. Can you tell me the link for the study, or the post with this information?

(09-10-2018, 09:48 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-10-2018, 06:59 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: In fact, that giant mandible was dated around 50 kya, but it is closer to the modern tiger morphologically.

Since the formation of the modern tiger subspecies was occurred after the Toba eruption which was dated 75 kya.

I now start to believe that those antiquated tiger subspecies like Ngandong tiger and Wanhsien tiger were dated before the Toba eruption, while the modern tiger subspecies after.

That is correct, if we follow the genetic evidence in Luo et al. (2004), all the tigers after the Toba eruption are genetically decendents of the surviving population in the north of Indochina, so they belong to the present P. tigris crono-subspecies and that it splited in two subspecies at 12,000 year ago: mainland-P. t. tigris and Sunda-P. t. sondaica.

(09-10-2018, 09:42 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-10-2018, 08:41 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: Panthera atrox in South America has left the fur record, and new studies showed that they may left the hunting record

In fact, there is a study that found skin patches but the genetic studies shows that these are jaguars.

Chimento & Agnolin (2017) did not made any study in the skin patches found in the Cueva of the Milodón; they clasified it as Panthera atrox just because the original papers clasified it as P. onca mesembrina. Now the study of Metcalf et al. (2016) were Dr Ross Barnett participated shows that those samples were in fact from jaguars and in figures two the Mithocondrial DNA phylogeny shows the genetic affinity of the pleistocene jaguars of America.


I am inclined to believe that those large cats from South America are in fact giant jaguars. Also remember that another study from Dr Barnett also showed that the cave "lions" are not lions at all, but a difference species by its own. So genetic studies are very important to understand the evolution of the animals, they phylogenetic relations and the taxonomic results.

(09-06-2018, 05:14 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(08-01-2018, 07:41 AM)genao87 Wrote:

(07-06-2018, 07:47 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Giants of Ice Age——American Lion＆Smilodon designed by myself
 @GrizzlyClaws ,  Smilodon populator's size may just equivalent to modern big tiger's subspecies, however, they still heavier than modern lions and tigers, and can also grow into 400 kg. Moreover, Smilodons have the more powerful body than modern lions and tigers since they born.
 American Lions also have the more powerful body than modern felines too, be different from Smilodons, American Lions are taller and their heads are bigger. 
    Here are the bodysize's range of few prehistoric big cats:
Smilodon populator——from 420 to 430 kg
Amphimachairodus giganteus——it may the biggest machairodontinae in history, according to the estimates of 460 mm skull, the weight limit may achieves  450 kg
American lion——from 450 to 465 kg  
Eurasia Cave lion——from 430 to 450 kg
Mosbach lion——from 450 to 493 kg
Ngandong tiger——from 350 to 370 kg
Natodomeri lion——from 350 to 370kg

wait whut??  where did these figures came from?  since the Ngandong Tiger shrunk???    where are sources and fossils that made these the latest and correct figures??

Those weights are incorrectly quoted. Check this:

* Smilodon populator: Sorkin gives a weight of 470 kg, but latter Christiansen and Harris (2005) provided a maximum weight of c.360 kg for the biggest specimen analyzed in the study, with a posible upper figure of 400 kg for the larger specimens (like the one in Paris Museum). This last figure is quoted by Anton (2013).

* Amphimachairodus giganteus: There are no estimations available, but based in the giant skull of 415 mm of Machairodus horribilis the posible maximum weight is of 405 kg (Tao et al., 2015), however this is using the equation of Van Valkenburg (1990), which provides overestimations, from my point of view, and depends to much of the length of the skull, independently of the robustness of the specimen. This animal was large, but probably a weight between 300-350 kg seems more plausible.

* American lion (Panthera atrox): Anyonge (1993) produced weights of over 500 kg for this species, but his results are unreliable and are proved to be gross overestimations. Sorkin (2009) estimated a weight of 420 kg, but he used only one speciment, ignoring the intraespecific variation of the species, thus is unreliable. Latter Christiansen & Harris (2009) calculated a largest weight of 351 kg, using the same method of Sorkin but with more specimens of lions, tigers and jaguars, producing a better calculation. Wheeler & Jefferson (2009) calculated a maximum of 332 kg, using the average of the results of all the equations used, however the figure of 478 kg obteined by the equation of the femora midshaft, in fact is not using the "weighted" method and also we must take in count the fact that the results of the equations of Christiansen & Harris (2005) must be used together and not separatelly, as will produce biased results. It seems that a maximum weight of 350-360 kg seems more reliable. For details check the link: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-american-lion-panthera-atrox - post No. 13.

* Eurasian Cave lion: With Panthera spelaea, no calculations of such a large weights is reported, Hemmer (2011) report an extreme weight up to 400 kg. I have not the full document at hand, so I don't know the method he used or if he is quoting other studies, but with skulls with greatest length of c.450 mm, such a weight is not completelly out of question. Smaller males from Yakutia and Alaska were of the same size than modern lions and tigers, so probably a figure of 250 - 270 kg is more reliable.

* Mosbach lion: This must be the Panthera (spelaea) fossilis species. The maximum weight that I have saw in litterature is of 367 kg (Guzvika, 1998). However with skulls as large as c.480 mm, this is the perfet candidate for a maximum of 400 kg, appart from Smilodon populator.

* Ngandong tiger: In the case of Panthera tigris soloensis, Hertler & Volmer (2008) calculated a maximum weigh of 470 kg using the largest fossil available (femur of 480 mm in length), but they used the formula of Anyonge (1993) which is unreliable. Latter Volmer et al. (2016) reduced the weight to only 298 kg using the formula of femur length of Christiansen & Harris (2005), however the problem is that they only used the length and not the girth and other measurements and also the figure is not "weighted", so but values are unreliable (one to high and other too low). Using the equation of Sorkin (2009) but with the method of Christiansen & Harris (2009), which is using many specimens, I got a figure of 368 kg. The forum of the Russian guys and Roman Uchitel webpage estimated a figure of 350 kg. 

* Natodomeri lion: For the moment there is no official figure for this giant lion, but definitelly is over 300 kg.

Hope this helps to clarify the case.

(09-10-2018, 09:26 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-10-2018, 08:33 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: To be honest, Ngandong tiger may not as huge as we image, the largest felines in history were prehistoric lions and giant machairodontinaes .

The Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis) is know for just a few bones and still this bones are larger than many of the bones of the cave "lions" spelaea/fossilis/atrox. On the other side, the cave "lions" are known for many more fossils, and we have a good idea about its sizes. My point is that in fossil records you need many fossils to get a good idea of the avearage and maximum sizes and to found a "big" specimen is very rare, is something that we can achieve only if you found many fossils. In the case of the cave "lions" spelaea/fossilis/atrox we know this, but in the case of the tiger is different.

We have few bones of the Ngandong tiger and the probability says that those bones are from "average" specimens, not from the largest. This means that the huge tiger with the femur of 480 mm, which is larger than in any recorded felid, was probably an "average" specimen and this suggest that larger tiger may exist, but we need to search it. A similar case is that of the Spinosaurus, which we have very few fossils but until resently Paleontologist found the larger specimens.

So, in theory, the largest Pleistocene tigers were probably of the same size than the largest Pleistocene "lions", but we need more fossils. I don't think that Machairodontids were as big, in fact they fossils are more slender and even the skull is much narrow than modern Pantherines. Those weights estimated of over 400 kg for M. kabir and M. horribilis and made with the formulas of Anyonge (1993) which produce gross overestimations and Van Valkenburg (1990) which also produce overestimations as her formula based in Condylobasal length depends more of the length of the skull and ignore its robusticity.

(09-11-2018, 05:51 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: Well Guate, I had read about your conclusion that the American Lion's maximum weight is 351kg according to the Christiansen&Harris's speculation in 2009, but the 351kg was based on the 458MM skull specimen, not the biggest one, as a matter of fact, if you base on the 468MM skull specimen, the American Lion's maximum weight can up to 400kg at least.
The prehistoric lions were stronger than modern pantheras, and their size were taller too, thus it could grown larger.

(09-11-2018, 05:18 PM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
The Panthera atrox's fur record, it looks like a real lion but not jaguar. BTW, according to the new studies, Panthera atroxs in South America also has been discovered that they may living in the cave.

(09-11-2018, 10:58 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Do you remember the size of the scale bar with the "lion" mandibles?

(09-11-2018, 08:51 PM)genao87 Wrote: So the femur of 480mm was probably from an average Ngandong Tiger!  Didn't know that was the largest recorded femur of any big cat.   Trying to understand 100% what your saying.  The largest femur of any cat?  So this Tiger as far as we know is the largest recorded cat in history?  If so then you made my day lol.     

  What about the false saber cats...the Nimravidae and Barbourofelidae?  Are they consider cats again or just still separate?    Also about Spinosaurus, there were new fossils recently??   If so did they changed it back to bipedal dinosaur instead of a possible Nimravidae? I cannot see Spino defeating T. Rex on land if it was quadrupedal like dinosaur.