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+----- Thread: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars (/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-of-jaguars)
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-23-2019
@chui_
Quote: However, it should be noted the skull of Lauzen's jaguar was measured before it was boiled and dried (see pg 239 of his 1990 book) and therefore its true measurements would be smaller.
Quote:He said it may have weighed close to 130kg, which means the opposite (ie 130kg would've been the upper estimate not the lower end). He actually states in his 1976 that this enormous jaguar with the record skull probably weighed 5-10kg more than his heaviest recorded at 119kg (therefore around 124-129kg with empty stomach). On page 131 of his 1976 book and on page 121 of his 1990 book he states this jaguar must have weighed "close to 130kg".
See below:
*This image is copyright of its original author
"The Jaguars Skull after the Drying Period, measured 20 1/4''
His Weight must of been close to 130kg on an Empty Belly"
Notice his skull was dried and his estimated weight of 130kg was on an Empty Stomach.
Let's not forget that he knew of multiple Skulls larger than that as well
"3x's 21+'' Jaguar Scores mentioned by Almeida
2 Skulls that Scored over 21'' from Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia page 56
"Padrin also sent me a photo and the measurements of the record skull of a Venezuelan Jaguar, shot near the town of San Fernando de Apure, in 1946, by a man called Spencel. This skull, now in the museum of the Universidad Central De Venezuela, Caracas, measures 21 3/16! (Major A. Ellis had a skull of similar proportions from a jaguar shot in Miranda, southern Pantanal, and that was the biggest skull of a Brazilian jaguar that I have ever heard of.) Spencel's jaguar reputedly weighed 264 lbs (120 kilos). A photo of a jaguar being weighed in at 325 lbs (148kg) is shown in Mondolfi and Hoogjesteijn's study on the Venezuelan jaguar."
And to compare the Largest Jaguar Almeida weighed, the 119kg Jaguar empty belly had pug marks under the 5'' mark while another they were unsuccessful in capturing surpassed that by a decent amount.
*This image is copyright of its original author
and here is 5'' Pugmarks from Red Yaguarete' recently captured
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Quote:The 148kg jaguar was not weighed with an empty stomach. I don't know why you keep making these claims.Per @GuateGojira personal communication with Rafael that you're aware of...
*This image is copyright of its original author
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To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i]
[i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i]
"The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously."
The bait was no more 4-5kg of Fish and it's been noted at the capture that the Jaguar wasn't full, so you can try to split hairs but that Jaguar is as close to empty as you're going to get with a wild Cat.
Quote:The main point, however is that the weights of a lot of the big jaguars taken by Almeida were clearly being exaggerated, despite the fact they are very clearly stated in his book.I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion.
It's not even a question, Jaguars get far larger than 119kg and especially now a days.
In modern days, we have 116kg average for North and South Pantanal, that number would most likely be higher if we separated North from South but regardless, I think it's fair to say that since the population Boom in Caiman after they were hunted to near extinction and the protections offered, Jaguars have shown that they are getting larger again.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - chui_ - 12-24-2019
(12-23-2019, 10:30 PM)Pckts Wrote: "The Jaguars Skull after the Drying Period, measured 20 1/4''
His Weight must of been close to 130kg on an Empty Belly"
Notice his skull was dried and his estimated weight of 130kg was on an Empty Stomach.
You need to read my post again because now you’re just making pointless statements and putting words in my mouth.
I never said the skull of Ken Vaugn’s huge jaguar was not dried. Read my post again.
I never disputed Almieda’s estimate of about 130kg for his biggest jaguar. This is not news, all of us interested in the subject have known this for years.
Now read carefully: You had stated in your previous post that Almeida’s biggest jaguar was estimated at at least 130kg – the phrase “at least” implies a lower limit of 130kg. When in fact Almeida clearly stated he estimated it at close to 130kg – the phrase “close to” implies an upper limit of 130kg for that particular jag. The two phrases have opposite meanings and my point was that you are being disingenuous with your presentation of the info you are trying to present.
As already explained, in another part of his book Almeida suggested a weight of 124-129kg for this huge jaguar (5-10kg heavier than the heaviest he weighed at 119kg).
Quote:Let's not forget that he knew of multiple Skulls larger than that as well
"3x's 21+'' Jaguar Scores mentioned by Almeida
2 Skulls that Scored over 21'' from Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia page 56
"Padrin also sent me a photo and the measurements of the record skull of a Venezuelan Jaguar, shot near the town of San Fernando de Apure, in 1946, by a man called Spencel. This skull, now in the museum of the Universidad Central De Venezuela, Caracas, measures 21 3/16! (Major A. Ellis had a skull of similar proportions from a jaguar shot in Miranda, southern Pantanal, and that was the biggest skull of a Brazilian jaguar that I have ever heard of.) Spencel's jaguar reputedly weighed 264 lbs (120 kilos). A photo of a jaguar being weighed in at 325 lbs (148kg) is shown in Mondolfi and Hoogjesteijn's study on the Venezuelan jaguar."
And to compare the Largest Jaguar Almeida weighed, the 119kg Jaguar empty belly had pug marks under the 5'' mark while another they were unsuccessful in capturing surpassed that by a decent amount.
Fact remains that Almeida only estimated one jaguar at close to 130kg. Your statement that he had estimated a few at this weight is disingenuous.
Quote:The bait was no more 4-5kg of Fish and it's been noted at the capture that the Jaguar wasn't full, so you can try to split hairs but that Jaguar is as close to empty as you're going to get with a wild Cat.
No that is not as close as you’re going to get to a wild cat with an empty stomach. If you think the stomach content was small that’s fine but blatantly stating it was empty is once again disingenuous.
Quote:I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion, his weights are verified and you like to use him as bible for Jaguar weights but now that you know he never said they get to 119kg max and that he knew of a few over 119kg, he's exaggerating?
What are you talking about?? I’ve had both of Almeida’s books for years, you’re not providing anything new here. Not once have I said 119kg is the max possible or that Almeida said that was the maximum attainable. But 119kg was the heaviest he recorded from nearly 40 adult male jaguars weighed in the northern Pantanal – this suggests a jaguar of around 120kg empty stomach is a pretty big one (not the maximum but certainly well above average).
Also, I said the weights of the jaguars hunted by Almeida were being exaggerated by others (he himself did not exaggerate anything). Even though we know the weights of most of his jaguars, people on the internet have been posting exaggerated weights for those same individual jaguars - (for example your post #29 on page 2 of this thread which had started this whole convo).
Before you post a response actually read what I’ve written this time.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-24-2019
First off, what do you think "empty" means?
Do you think he's talking about at maximum or a cat at least that size with no additional weight added from food, which of course would make it heavier than the 130kg estimate?
This of course is why you partially quoted him leaving out the "empty" part.
Now in regards to larger Jaguars, Almeida quotes the at least 130kg Jaguar, Rafeal's 148kg jaguar, 120kg Jaguar and another being larger than 119kg empty Jaguar. Not to mention skulls scoring more than 21"
The empty 315lb Jaguar again is far closer to empty than otherwise and unless you dissect it than how can you know for sure? The facts certainly suggest it being closer to empty than full, right?
I cant speak about people exaggerating his numbers but he certainly wasn't and neither are Panthera or Oncafari which have cats larger than his.
In regards to the 40 individuals quoted by you to be from the "northern pantanal" I dont recall that and I know that he hunted all over the pantanal- from Brazil to Bolivia so I'll confirm that as well.
So I suggest you leave your pompous attitude at the door, your preconceived notions on Jaguar size have been shown to be dated, you dont even acknowledge the fact that Jaguars now a days have significantly surpassed Almeidas Jaguars. Why is that, I'm curious?
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - chui_ - 12-24-2019
(12-24-2019, 06:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: First off, what do you think "empty" means?
Do you think he's talking about at maximum or a cat at least that size with no additional weight added from food, which of course would make it heavier than the 130kg estimate?
This of course is why you partially quoted him leaving out the "empty" part.
I don’t get your point.
Of course his estimate for that jaguar’s weight would be with empty stomach. Why would you estimate the weight of an animal including stomach content?
Stomach content is relevant for actual recorded weights because a scale doesn’t know how much of the weight it is registering is just meat in the belly of the animal. So we need to consider stomach content in that context not with estimates.
Quote:Now in regards to larger Jaguars, Almeida quotes the at least 130kg Jaguar, Rafeal's 148kg jaguar, 120kg Jaguar and another being larger than 119kg empty Jaguar. Not to mention skulls scoring more than 21"
Again what’s your point? That there are jaguars bigger than the ones Almeida himself recorded? Of course there are, I never said there aren’t.
From Almeida’s own firsthand experience with 46 adult male Pantanal jaguars, only one was estimated at about 130kg. The point is Almeida’s own data provides us with a very reliable concise homogeneous sample which allows us to make some extrapolations. Him making reference to other big jaguars he’s heard of is besides the point.
Quote:The empty 315lb Jaguar again is far closer to empty than otherwise and unless you dissect it than how can you know for sure? The facts certainly suggest it being closer to empty than full, right?
Being closer to empty than full is not empty. That should be straightforward.
Quote:In regards to the 40 individuals quoted by you to be from the "northern pantanal" I dont recall that and I know that he hunted all over the pantanal- from Brazil to Bolivia so I'll confirm that as well.
It’s been a while since I’ve read through his books in detail but I recall reading that he hunted mostly in the northern Pantanal. Maybe you can check that.
Quote:So I suggest you leave your pompous attitude at the door, your preconceived notions on Jaguar size have been shown to be dated, you dont even acknowledge the fact that Jaguars now a days have significantly surpassed Almeidas Jaguars. Why is that, I'm curious?
I find it hard to believe these jaguars have increased in size by 30% (from 100 to 130kg) over the last few decades. The Pantanal jaguars have always enjoyed abundant prey, both natural prey and plenty of easy to kill cattle (much bigger than any natural prey!) so this sudden increase in size seems a bit far fetched. You guys have posted a few weights and estimates from social media of some big males and are making conclusions, I’ll be convinced when I see properly published data (preferably with some info on stomach content).
6 males captured in the southern Pantanal between 2003 and 2004 averaged 99.7kg, very similar to Almeida's figure.
From the 2006 paper:"Spatial organization and food habits of jaguars (Panthera onca) in a floodplain forest"
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - chui_ - 12-24-2019
(09-11-2019, 12:52 AM)Pckts Wrote:Quote:The jaguar hunted by Ken Vaughn was not weighed – so the weight of 330lb would be incorrect not inconclusive – because it does not exist (do you need further clarification?). The guy (Almeida) who recorded all these jaguars did not weigh any jaguar close to that weight, nor did he believe they could reach that weight.We know that is wrong. Also, what page does he make this claim? I have the book now and I have seen no such claim from him as of yet.
Just saw this now. Keep in mind Almeida published 2 books.
Here you go, page 63 of Tony Almeida's 1976 book. I already posted the previous page (p 62) from this book on page 5 of this thread.
To be fair he is probably being overly conservative here.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-24-2019
(12-24-2019, 09:26 AM)chui_ Wrote:(09-11-2019, 12:52 AM)Pckts Wrote:Quote:The jaguar hunted by Ken Vaughn was not weighed – so the weight of 330lb would be incorrect not inconclusive – because it does not exist (do you need further clarification?). The guy (Almeida) who recorded all these jaguars did not weigh any jaguar close to that weight, nor did he believe they could reach that weight.We know that is wrong. Also, what page does he make this claim? I have the book now and I have seen no such claim from him as of yet.
Just saw this now. Keep in mind Almeida published 2 books.
Here you go, page 63 of Tony Almeida's 1976 book. I already posted the previous page (p 62) from this book on page 5 of this thread.
To be fair he is probably being overly conservative here.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Maybe he made that assessment before his later hunts which I assume is why he mentions Rafeals 148kg Jaguar which was empty *or as close to empty as we can be sure of* as well as the 130kg Jaguar estimated by him to be empty.
Also, I have a question in regards to the 148kg Jag he speaks of.
He said it was from Venezuela but this Jaguar was weighed in Brazil
Quote:Of course his estimate for that jaguar’s weight would be with empty stomach. Why would you estimate the weight of an animal including stomach content?If he specifically mentions Empty and his opinion is that Jaguars don't get over 130kg Empty, he is obviously saying that Jaguar is a very large individual and at least 130kg since you can only go up from empty.
Stomach content is relevant for actual recorded weights because a scale doesn’t know how much of the weight it is registering is just meat in the belly of the animal. So we need to consider stomach content in that context not with estimates.
If we are to look deeper, what good is it to estimate empty?
The odds of you actually catching a cat that has 0 food content in it's belly are slim to none.
If you want to make mention that the cat was on a bait and gorged itself, that is another issue but trying to guess the amount a cat has eaten just off of fleeting images is pointless.
Even individual cats don't look empty the same way, some can be much more drastic in their appearance than others.
Chota Munna vs Umarpani is a good example, both go through summer months and drop a significant amount of weight but CM looks far slimmer than Umarpani no matter the time of year.
Both these cats live in the same Zone in Kanha and have dominated that area for years, so their a good gauge to compare.
I don't believe stomach content is relevant for the reason mentioned above, how can anyone really know how much a cat has eaten unless you bait them or their is a fresh kill nearby. Better to assume all captures have similar content unless the extraordinary circumstances mentioned here are found.
Quote:It’s been a while since I’ve read through his books in detail but I recall reading that he hunted mostly in the northern Pantanal. Maybe you can check that.
40 individuals from the "Northwestern Part of the Pantanal"
Quote:I find it hard to believe these jaguars have increased in size by 30% (from 100 to 130kg) over the last few decades. The Pantanal jaguars have always enjoyed abundant prey, both natural prey and plenty of easy to kill cattle (much bigger than any natural prey!) so this sudden increase in size seems a bit far fetched. You guys have posted a few weights and estimates from social media of some big males and are making conclusions, I’ll be convinced when I see properly published data (preferably with some info on stomach content).
6 males captured in the southern Pantanal between 2003 and 2004 averaged 99.7kg, very similar to Almeida's figure.
"By Richard Mann
RIO DE JANEIRO, BRAZIL - The Pantanal, the world's largest tropical wetland area, is now home to more than ten million caimans (Caiman crocodilus yacare). In the 1980s, this species became the preferred target of the skin leather trade, which killed at least 5 million specimens."
"In the 1980s, the species was "heading for oblivion" due to frequently being hunted for its skin;[9] hunters often went to water holes containing many yacare caimans and shot large numbers of them. They utilized the skin for leather and left the other parts of the carcasses at the water holes.[9] Although the species is covered with bony osteoderms, which had previously made it uncommon to be hunted for leather, it has some less bony spots which can be used for leather.[5]:582 This practice caused the caiman's population to drop by the millions. In 1992, a ban was issued in Brazil that prohibited the trading of crocodilian skins. This resulted in a significant increase in its population, with about 10 million specimens living in the Pantanal alone as of 2013"
"The yacare caiman was listed as endangered throughout its entire range under the predecessor of the Endangered Species Act (Act) of 1973 on June 2, 1970 (35 FR 8495)."
The Caiman were hunted to almost Extinction, Jaguars too, it wasn't until the early 90s did you actually start to see a positive turn in their numbers and even so they were still hunted "illegally" which wasn't enforced.
Even to this day, the most prolific hunter to ever step foot in the Pantanal lives just a few miles away from Porto Jofre and can easily be hired to go hunt.
Also the cattle killer claim has more to do with sex of the Jaguar and location, in places like the South Pantanal, Farmers do bait the Jaguars quite a bit to get them to come out so they can take pictures of them on land since it's harsher terrain and less modernized for tourists. In places in the North Cattle Killers are usually Females with cubs and only during the Flood Months, even Almeida mentions this aswell. There are no cattle that walk through the meeting of the 3 rivers, it's just vast wetlands, deep and dense with vegetation that no large herbivore can trek easily. When you go through the Pantanal, you'll never see a Cow when you're boating through, when you get back to the highway after travelling by boat back to Porto Jofre, you'll see them all over and some times those will be taken by Jaguars.
They do have Introduced Water Buffalo which are now hunted by the locals since they're considered a nuisance and not seen easily by Safari. But they cause more of a threat to Jaguars than the other way around, they're notorious cub killers.
And Jaguars didn't increase from "100kg to 130kg"
He already found Jaguars there he believed to be 130kg Empty, just not as frequently that they are found there now.
There is a direct correlation to the protections provided to both Jaguars and their Prey and since both numbers have rebounded dramatically, we now see the increase.
An Average then of 100kg to 116kg for N/S Pantanal now. *This number is not official btw, this is based off the published weights of Panthera and Oncafari*
Almeida also mention that he considered mature males to be from 4 years and up but he specifically mentions that they continue to put on mass, quite a bit actually far past the age of 4 so his number could be stunted by age in comparison to the ones mentioned in recent times.
For instance, you had Brutus captured at a young age *4 I believe* and he was about 110kg and now they estimated him to be 130kg. Source is Oncafari
*This image is copyright of its original author
He also Included Runts in his averages as well
*This image is copyright of its original author
Lastly, I can't say this this enough, the meeting of the 3 rivers is going to be the best place on earth for large Jaguars.
The protection offered there and sheer amount of Caiman has made them the best of the best.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 12-25-2019
credits: projeto onça pantaneira
Just like the post of the 128kg male I posted before captured by the same project in 2008 the accounts are in portuguese
male and female captured in 2008. The female was pregnant and lactating and the male weights 112kilos ( the weight statement is on the first page click on the arrow on the right and you'll see him next to the female on the next page )
https://www.yumpu.com/pt/document/read/13054579/projeto-onca-pantaneira-captura-suas-primeiras-oncas-pintadas
3 males but there's only one male weight revealed in this post the male on next page 110 kilos but the ones from the first page despite looking older they look bigger to me. ( very similar to Fantasma male )
https://www.yumpu.com/pt/document/read/13054716/boletim-informativo-projeto-onca-pantaneira-11pdf-pro-carnivoros
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-27-2019
130kg Jaguar who was poached unfortunately.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 12-30-2019
credits: NEX
:
CERRADO MALE JAG WEIGHING 104 KILOS
Meet Xangô the most famous and emblematic Cerrado male Jaguar in Brazil.
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Xangô showed up in an area in the Cerrado that nobody had hopes to see a wild cerrado jaguar anymore.
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he's quite famous and many tv channel here in Brazil showed him.
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Xangô is monitored by NEX in Cerrado and he had been captured 5 times or more by the team, he is quite familiar with the captive jaguars from NEX and visits them sometimes.
Xangô visiting Yamí captive female
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Xangô and Mateiro deer in the Cerrado wilderness
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At night in the wild Cerrado .
strong hind legs
Xangô patrolling during the day in the Cerrado wilderness.
Moment of his 4th capture he was lured in the cage by a captive female.
although very famous Xangô is still a wild Cerrado beast.
THERE ARE TONS OF VIDEOS OF HIM OUT THERE.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 12-31-2019
@Pckts and @Dark Jaguar, you are making a great work finding and sharing all these new weights of jaguars in the Pantanal region, I really appreaciate your efforts.
Why you don't try to create a table and summarize all these figures, including its direct reference of course? It will be very helpfull for future references.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 12-31-2019
(12-31-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: @Pckts and @Dark Jaguar, you are making a great work finding and sharing all these new weights of jaguars in the Pantanal region, I really appreaciate your efforts.
Why you don't try to create a table and summarize all these figures, including its direct reference of course? It will be very helpfull for future references.
Thank you @GuateGojira and the good thing is that its not only Pantanal jaguars being measured there's also Cerrado jaguars as well that is surprising in size after protection and conservation projects and I will do the best I can to include the weights of the other 3 Jaguars populations inside Brazil as well, their info are just more rare and scarce to be revealed in public even more than Cerrado Jags.
That's a wonderful idea @GuateGojira count me in.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-31-2019
(12-31-2019, 04:19 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:(12-31-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: @Pckts and @Dark Jaguar, you are making a great work finding and sharing all these new weights of jaguars in the Pantanal region, I really appreaciate your efforts.
Why you don't try to create a table and summarize all these figures, including its direct reference of course? It will be very helpfull for future references.
Thank you @GuateGojira and the good thing is that its not only Pantanal jaguars being measured there's also Cerrado jaguars as well that is surprising in size after protection and conservation projects and I will do the best I can to include the weights of the other 3 Jaguars populations inside Brazil as well, their info are just more rare and scarce to be revealed in public even more than Cerrado Jags.
That's a wonderful idea @GuateGojira count me in.
I'm not great with Tables or Spreadsheets but I'll contribute whatever I can and give sources to any of the weights I've shown.
The Cerrado Jags have been a great addition, before it was just Los Llanos and Pantanal Jags as the super heavyweights then the big drop to the Amazonian Sloth Hunters but now we know there is a middle ground with what seem to be the 100kg Population.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 12-31-2019
(12-30-2019, 07:27 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
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This jaguar "Xango", it looks about the same body length than a large Persian leopard (or any large P. pardus subspecies), but with 110 kg, is already heavier and massive than any leopard recorded by scientifics. It looks masive for its short length.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 12-31-2019
(12-31-2019, 05:04 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(12-30-2019, 07:27 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
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This jaguar "Xango", it looks about the same body length than a large Persian leopard (or any large P. pardus subspecies), but with 110 kg, is already heavier and massive than any leopard recorded by scientifics. It looks masive for its short length.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 12-31-2019
Here's another Cerrado male Jaguar seen 2 days ago ( he is not Xangô ) this one is monitored by Leandro Silveira and his team on Instituto Onça-Pintada. Cerrado.
I just didn't post him here because Leandro did not reveal his weight in public so I am not gonna make any estimations on his weight but there he is and by looking at him he looks a little similar to Xangô in size as well as to Richard Cerrado male on my post #57.