(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:

From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)

Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.

From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)

It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.

Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.

The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores. 

Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.

Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.


For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:

at 0:09, Rob mentions:

Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make

^ This is the larger kill  that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.

Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.

On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor. 

This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.

Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo

(04-25-2019, 11:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:

From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)

Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.

From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)

It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.

Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.

The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores. 

Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.

Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.


For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:

at 0:09, Rob mentions:

Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make

^ This is the larger kill  that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.

Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.

On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor. 

This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.

I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:

Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that

Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo

Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.

It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.

Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.

(04-25-2019, 11:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:

From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)

Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.

From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)

It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.

Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.

The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores. 

Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.

Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.


For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:

at 0:09, Rob mentions:

Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make

^ This is the larger kill  that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.

Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.

On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor. 

This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.

I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:

Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that

Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo

Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.

It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.

Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.

(04-25-2019, 11:21 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(04-25-2019, 11:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-25-2019, 06:26 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(04-24-2019, 12:37 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Central African leopards main prey for males are red river hogs. There's no doubt it would be a much bigger struggle taking it down than something like an impala which is the main prey for savanna leopards. Though the lack of more dominant competitors would certainly have some influence, the more impressive prey taken by leopards in the forest would be the main factor behind their more robust builds. And don't forget they also predate on forest buffaloes:

From 'Leopard food habits in the Lopé National Park, Gabon, Central Africa' (by P. Henschel, 2005)

Quote:The most important single prey species was found to be red river hog Potamochoerus porcus (Linnaeus), making up 20% of the biomass consumed, followed by forest buffalo Syncerus caffer nanus (Boddaert) and cane rat Thryonomys swinderianus (Temminck), each comprising 13% of biomass consumed.

From "Leopard attack on and consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic" 1995 (by Michael Fay.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

They even predate on 200kg adult okapis (!)

It's only logical that these leopards are bigger and more robust, it's an adaptation to take on larger prey.

Actually, even a 30-40 kg female Leopard might be able to kill a 200 kg ungulate.

The main point your study indicates is that the Leopards can feast as frequently on large animals without interference of other carnivores. 

Since the jungle Leopard has freedom, it can kill large prey as much as it wants, and gain back all the energy wasted on the kill.

Remember guys the point is the frequency of killing big prey, not the capability of the leopard killing big prey.


For example here is a large South African Leopard with a Kudu Cow kill:

at 0:09, Rob mentions:

Quote:Not only is the biggest kill you'll see a Leopard make

^ This is the larger kill  that a Leopard can occasionally make in the savanna.

Afterwards, a Lion steals the kill, and the Leopard may not be able to replenish all the energy. It will now focus on impala, steenbok, duiker and baby nyalas and wildebeest calves.

On the other hand, there were 3 adult Gorillas and 2 adult chimps that were part of the Gabon Leopard's diet. This indicates that not only can forest leopards make big kills more often compared to savanna leopards, but they can also gain enough nutrition without interference from a major competitor. 

This is why there are more robust Leopards in the Central African forests.

I agree with you. Too bad others ignore every single fact:

Fact: Leopards from Central Africa have the largest skulls.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar).

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: These leopards are far more robust than any other African leopard. Even researchers from Panthera noticed that

Quote:Hi, my name is Jo and I am one of Panthera's research technicians in South Africa. What an excellent question! I too have noticed that the Gabon leopards are much larger and appear stockier too, but I did not know what the difference measured out to be. I sent your question to our researchers in central and western Africa to see if they had any insight. Our chat group had a great discussion on the topic and some photos of "beasty" leopard males were shared. It does not sound like anyone in Panthera has done much research into the weight of leopards in the equatorial region. However, to gather weight information on live leopards, it requires an immobilisation by a veterinarian, which is a risky and stressful procedure for the leopard. Unless there is another activity such as removal of a snare or a collaring for monitoring (which we really try not do unless absolutely necessary for leopards), than just gathering weight information is not justifiable for a procedure with that level of risk. Overall, I think it is very interesting and something cool to note. Thank you so much for your question! Cheers, Jo

Fact: Their main prey is far more impressive than other African leopards (Red river hogs v impala's)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Fact: photographic material show us that these are indeed far more impressive than any other leopard. Huge South African males like Camp pan, Vin Diesel or Anderson look mediocre compared to these males

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Not only does the last one look like a jaguar he looks like a very impressive jaguar.

It's also worth noting that almost all my info comes from a person who helped Xavier Hubert individualize the leopards in Gabon.

Some will say I repeat myself, but it's those persons who are being stubborn and don't want to accept these facts.

Quote: "The average length and width of adult male leopard skulls specifically from Gabon and the neighboring countries is 256.3 x 164.5mm. For comparison, the average skull dimensions for adult male jaguars from the Amazon are 262.6 x 175.9mm and their average weight is around 80kg. (Yes another comparison with the jaguar)."

From which study is that average for leopards? Or which charts did you use to calculate that? And same about jaguars, which study for those measurements or which charts did you use?

(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Z2SCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=leopard+shot+weight&source=bl&ots=dLBBJE0wS4&sig=ACfU3U2lkAU8jjhkQVZh44gy9SMU0Rm5-Q&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr8rWNne3hAhXC_CoKHZWCAP8Q6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=leopard%20shot%20weight&f=false

(04-26-2019, 03:51 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Z2SCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=leopard+shot+weight&source=bl&ots=dLBBJE0wS4&sig=ACfU3U2lkAU8jjhkQVZh44gy9SMU0Rm5-Q&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr8rWNne3hAhXC_CoKHZWCAP8Q6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=leopard%20shot%20weight&f=false

He sure doesn't like to exaggerate, that's an understatement...

They're talking about "fair average specimen" weighing 152 pounds (68kg). Here's his opinion: 

"This sounds like a big leopard to me. I haven't weighed many leopards but I have weighed dozens of deer and can usually guess an animal's weight fairly well. I don't think I have even seen a leopard that would weigh much over 150 pounds. I have heard of 185-pound leopards but they must be rare."

"A good big male lion will weigh around 400 pounds; an exceptional one may go 500. As we have seen, it takes a big leopard to weigh 150, some weigh less than 100"

Yeah, sorry but that's not accurrate accurate at all.

(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Z2SCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=leopard+shot+weight&source=bl&ots=dLBBJE0wS4&sig=ACfU3U2lkAU8jjhkQVZh44gy9SMU0Rm5-Q&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr8rWNne3hAhXC_CoKHZWCAP8Q6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=leopard%20shot%20weight&f=false

Quote:The big male leopard shot by Gates in Chad had then the second largest skull ever recorded and as leopards go it was an enormous animal 

(04-27-2019, 01:03 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(04-26-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to book from a hunter, there is also a bit about his observations about weighs and sizes of leopards in jungle. Of course not the same as scientific study, but still interesting to read something from a hunter who doesn´t seem to like exaggerate.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Z2SCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT54&lpg=PT54&dq=leopard+shot+weight&source=bl&ots=dLBBJE0wS4&sig=ACfU3U2lkAU8jjhkQVZh44gy9SMU0Rm5-Q&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr8rWNne3hAhXC_CoKHZWCAP8Q6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=leopard%20shot%20weight&f=false

The hunter was mostly in the Savannas of Tanzania and Kenya, rather than the jungles of Gabon and other parts of Central Africa.

The jungle Leopards he mentioned were actually in Central India. At least he slightly admitted about the skull size to overall size comparison:

Quote:The big male leopard shot by Gates in Chad had then the second largest skull ever recorded and as leopards go it was an enormous animal