(01-18-2017, 07:11 PM)johnny rex Wrote: But it seems the measurement of the lion's head could be over the curve measurement. The Duisburg Amur head measurement, AFAIK, is based on straight line measurement.

(01-18-2017, 12:17 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(08-20-2015, 11:46 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: The Hobatere Lion Research Project

Check this new data from a study of lions in the Ethosa frontier. This are the lions of the Hobatere Concession Area (hereafter referred to as Hobatere), which lies adjacent to western Etosha, with the Hobatere lion population falling within the Etosha sub-population and in the medium to high density category. Check this map:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The full article describe the entire study, and full with amazing pictures and what I always search, measurements and weights! Here is the page: http://africat.org/hobatere-lion-research-project-update-june-2015

Here is the table of the body measurements, check that only two animals were weighed, and the figures suggest lions of great body mass, although not very long. Warning, the shoulder height is also along the curves, so it is not an standing height. Check it out:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here are weighing the male lion:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here are measuring another one, along the curves:

*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaws you love the canines, so here is the table about the canines of these lions. Check that the canine of 6 mm (at the gum line) of male Hpl-2 is a new record for wild lions. Here is the table:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here is the best image of the lion Hpl-2 upper canines.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here is another report from three of those specimens, this time from the Etendeka Concession, Omatendeka Conservancy, Kunene Region, always in Namibia, all adults. Check this fully grow male:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here is the web page: http://africat.org/africat-lion-research-project-expanded

Here is the article with the measurements (no weights, sadly) of the three specimens: http://www.africat.org/images/koolfish_uploads/pdf/radio_collars/etendeka_collarings_scientific_report.pdf

Interestingly how they have survived in this harsh terrain, sacrificing size for efficiency.

Hope you like it, and add it to your data bases.

Greetings to all.

Wow, I'm amazed by the head length of HPL-5. His head is actually longer than the legendary Duisburg Zoo Siberian tiger which head is 50 cm long thus the lion has a larger skull than the largest tiger. But, I'm not sure whether the measurement of the lion's head is pretty accurate by the way. Is the measurement of the lion's head length based on over the curve measurement? Are there any tigers that possess head that is much larger than this particular lion, if possible?

(01-19-2017, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: Guate is right: according to V. Mazak (1983), the Amur tiger from the Duisburg Zoo was measured 'between pegs' by Dr. Gewalt, whereas the desert lions were measured 'over curves'. It's also true that lions have absolutely and relatively longer skulls than tigers. 

The other measurements in the table underline that there is no relation between head length and body length in big cats. Same for the relation between head length and skull circumference. One needs a complete picture to get to a conclusion on size. This why biologists need to take as much measurements as possible.

The method most often used to measure big cats today ('over curves') is unreliable. Big cats should be measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). A curve measurement can be taken in different ways. If a lion is measured by four different people in this way, you will get four different results every time you try.      

Wild Amur tigers have a relatively long body. This, many think, is needed to preserve heat. Desert lions, most probably about similar in weight (not sure), seem to have a relatively short body, long limbs and long skulls. This could be an adaption to the conditions as well.   

I always thought that lions in the southwest (Etosha and Kalahari) and the southeast (Mocambique) were a bit larger than anywhere else, but Kitchener, who wrote that individual variation within a region is more pronounced than variation between local types (at the level of averages), might well be right. The most robust skulls I saw where from animals shot in the southeastern part of Africa. The longest skull I measured, however, belonged to a male captured in what is now Ethiopia. He died in the Amsterdam Zoo.

V. Mazak measured many lion skulls. The longest and biggest of these belonged to Atlas lions, but everything else I have points in the direction of a moderately-sized local type. Atlas lions, however, could have had the biggest skulls for their size and they also seemed quite robust. The conditions in which they lived, to a degree, compared to the conditions in which the Kalahari lions live.

Here's two very old pictures. The first lion is a captive adult male. The second is a captive subadult from the London Zoo (1896):

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A century and a half ago, naturalists and hunters distinguished between many local types (subspecies). The information they collected, however, was sidelined later. Not saying it was a bit unfortunate, but it did result in a loss of information. A great pity.

(01-20-2017, 10:06 PM)johnny rex Wrote:

(01-19-2017, 06:04 AM)peter Wrote: Guate is right: according to V. Mazak (1983), the Amur tiger from the Duisburg Zoo was measured 'between pegs' by Dr. Gewalt, whereas the desert lions were measured 'over curves'. It's also true that lions have absolutely and relatively longer skulls than tigers. 

The other measurements in the table underline that there is no relation between head length and body length in big cats. Same for the relation between head length and skull circumference. One needs a complete picture to get to a conclusion on size. This why biologists need to take as much measurements as possible.

The method most often used to measure big cats today ('over curves') is unreliable. Big cats should be measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). A curve measurement can be taken in different ways. If a lion is measured by four different people in this way, you will get four different results every time you try.      

Wild Amur tigers have a relatively long body. This, many think, is needed to preserve heat. Desert lions, most probably about similar in weight (not sure), seem to have a relatively short body, long limbs and long skulls. This could be an adaption to the conditions as well.   

I always thought that lions in the southwest (Etosha and Kalahari) and the southeast (Mocambique) were a bit larger than anywhere else, but Kitchener, who wrote that individual variation within a region is more pronounced than variation between local types (at the level of averages), might well be right. The most robust skulls I saw where from animals shot in the southeastern part of Africa. The longest skull I measured, however, belonged to a male captured in what is now Ethiopia. He died in the Amsterdam Zoo.

V. Mazak measured many lion skulls. The longest and biggest of these belonged to Atlas lions, but everything else I have points in the direction of a moderately-sized local type. Atlas lions, however, could have had the biggest skulls for their size and they also seemed quite robust. The conditions in which they lived, to a degree, compared to the conditions in which the Kalahari lions live.

Here's two very old pictures. The first lion is a captive adult male. The second is a captive subadult from the London Zoo (1896):

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

A century and a half ago, naturalists and hunters distinguished between many local types (subspecies). The information they collected, however, was sidelined later. Not saying it was a bit unfortunate, but it did result in a loss of information. A great pity.

So @peter , despite smaller in size than Southern lions such as Kruger lions, even Ethiophian lions which are smaller than Kruger lions can have similar sized skulls, correct? What species of lion that possesses the largest skull ever excluding prehistoric species?