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+----- Thread: The Matimba coalition (/topic-the-matimba-coalition)
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RE: the Matimba coalition - Chris - 05-07-2018
(05-07-2018, 09:21 PM)swtlei4u Wrote:What do you mean they don’t have time to secure a pride, their mating with one of the Ottawa females and roaring and scent marking the territory, so realistically they have a territory and pride, give it some time and you will bothe mating with the whole pride and also in the future cubs.(05-07-2018, 05:40 PM)Tshokwane Wrote: Credits to James Tyrrell - Londolozi.i hope they don't stay too long cause they don't have much time left to secure any of the prides, I think they made more problems when they came to londoliza by procreating only to leave and not securing any of the prides they took over! need some young bloods to create some stability!
Matimba Males Return:
Over a year ago, the two huge Matimba male lions simply packed up and left.
Reports filtered in of them heading north, back to their old stomping grounds. Then nothing was seen of them. Then more reports of them popping up to the south. Without any consistent movement being recorded, and with only third-hand information reaching us, they quickly became a thing of the past, especially as the arrival of the Birmingham males took over the coalition headlines.
But now it seems, history has repeated itself, and the Matimba males have once gain moved into a territory recently vacated by the Majingilane.
Although the lighter-maned Matimba male was seen near Ximpalapala Koppie, it has been many months since both of these males were viewed together on Londolozi.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Eastern and north Londolozi were left vacant when that amazing coalition (tribute to them coming soon) moved westwards in the Sabi Sand, and the Matimba pair, recently deposed from the northern sector of the reserve, simply moved in to fill the vacuum. This unexpected windfall came at just the right time for them, and it wasn’t long before they began mating with the Tsalala Pride, producing a number of cubs. Only one Tsalala cub is still alive, but truth be told, we can’t be sure who the father actually was, as both Matimba and Majingilane were possible suspects.
Anyway, the Matimba males were in residence for just over a year before they simply decided to leave. It was a fair number of months before the Birmingham males began making their presence properly felt, so it didn’t seem to us that they were the immediate cause of the Matimba exodus.
We still don’t know the exact reasons the Matimba males vacated Londolozi in the first place.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Whatever the case, the fact remains that the Matimba males moved into Londolozi after the Majinglane moved out, and now they appear to have done the same in the western sector of the Sabi Sand Reserve.
Both the ginger maned Matimba and the male with the hairy belly have been reported mating with one of the Othawa lionesses (report yet to be confirmed), which follows on from a brief sighting of the ginger maned male at Ximpalapala Koppie a few weeks ago. At first there was confusion as to who that mystery lion was, so long had it been since one of the Matimbas had been seen on Londolozi, but after a few references to earlier photos, his identity was confirmed.
The lighter-maned Matimba male.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now, with the Majingilane coalition entirely deceased, the whole western section of the Sabi Sand Reserve is up for grabs, with mating rights to the Othawa and possibly Mhangeni females at stake (and possibly the breakaway sub-adult Mhangeni lionesses, depending on their future), and the Matimba males, in yet another opportunistic move, have been seen roaring and scent marking, proclaiming the territory as theirs.
I don’t know where they have been in the interim, but surely from a purely genetic perspective, their inconsistent movements and relatively short tenures over the areas they’ve occupied can’t have in any way ensured breeding success? A male lion’s role is to protect an area in which the females he’s covered can safely raise their cubs, but occupation for just over a year in each territory almost certainly won’t allow enough time for any of the females to get their cubs through to independence. I don’t know much about these males’ history prior to their arrival on Londolozi in 2015, but I do know that only one of their possible offspring (the Tsalala cub) remains alive, and his future looks bleak, given the age of his mother and the fact that his pride no longer falls under the protection of a dominant coalition. Genetically then, the Matimba males can be deemed failures since 2015.
The lighter maned Matimba male with some of the Tsalala cubs, late-2016. None of these cubs survived.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I speak purely from a male lion-reproduction point of view. One can argue ad infinitum about which coalition did what and who is braver and whose legacy is more powerful, but unless the Matimba males sire cubs in the western sector, and then stick around long enough to see those cubs through to independence, their legacy in the reserve will fall far short of what it could have been….
RE: the Matimba coalition - Chris - 05-07-2018
(05-07-2018, 05:38 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Credits to Tiffany Franks - Singita.
One of the most incredible and powerful things I have I ever witnessed in my whole life!!
A Matimba male mating with one of the Othawa lionesses. Exciting times in the Sands! So very blessed to see these things in person and to witness nature at its best.
It's good to see them bounce back, hope they can stay for some time.
Ginger roar is a little rusty but it will clear out overtime now that there in the process of takeover.
RE: the Matimba coalition - swtlei4u - 05-07-2018
(05-07-2018, 10:27 PM)Chris Wrote:(05-07-2018, 05:38 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Credits to Tiffany Franks - Singita.
One of the most incredible and powerful things I have I ever witnessed in my whole life!!
A Matimba male mating with one of the Othawa lionesses. Exciting times in the Sands! So very blessed to see these things in person and to witness nature at its best.
It's good to see them bounce back, hope they can stay for some time.
Ginger roar is a little rusty but it will clear out overtime now that there in the process of takeover.
RE: the Matimba coalition - swtlei4u - 05-07-2018
(05-07-2018, 11:20 PM)swtlei4u Wrote:(05-07-2018, 10:27 PM)Chris Wrote:(05-07-2018, 05:38 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Credits to Tiffany Franks - Singita.
One of the most incredible and powerful things I have I ever witnessed in my whole life!!
A Matimba male mating with one of the Othawa lionesses. Exciting times in the Sands! So very blessed to see these things in person and to witness nature at its best.
It's good to see them bounce back, hope they can stay for some time.
Ginger roar is a little rusty but it will clear out overtime now that there in the process of takeover.
Look at the tsalala pride! they had cubs then they took off and left the pride to fend for themselves! their past their prime and not much younger then the majingalane coalition. how long do you think they have as dominant males?
RE: the Matimba coalition - Tshokwane - 05-07-2018
(05-07-2018, 10:24 PM)Chris Wrote: What do you mean they don’t have time to secure a pride, their mating with one of the Ottawa females and roaring and scent marking the territory, so realistically they have a territory and pride, give it some time and you will bothe mating with the whole pride and also in the future cubs.
Swtlei4u is right. That isn't what it's really about, Chris.
It's what the last paragraph of the article is about. If they can't hold on to it, then it means nothing, biologically speaking.
Why are we making this assumptions if, like you say, "realistically they have a territory and pride"?
Well, because we've seen them before giving up on their territory, prides and cubs when the first serious challenge shows up.
Go back to 2016, and to last year. They were in Londolozi, and from time to time the Majingilane entered it, and there was some back and forth between them, but nothing happened, and the Matimbas didn't seem too bothered by it. Why? Because they knew the Majingilane weren't after the land. Sure, a couple of times the Majingilane tried to kill them, but in general they didn't care.
Now, what happened when the Matshapiri males, who were only two and not as big or experienced as the Matimbas, presented them a proper, territory taking challenge?...
The Matimba males fled.
So now, a year later, with age weighing them down, and with a less than ideal physical condition, how much do you think it's going to take from rivals to, again, chase them off?
While I do like them, and that they've come back, I still have to be realistic about it.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Michael - 05-08-2018
(05-07-2018, 10:27 PM)Chris Wrote:Even if you ignore their past behavior, they are old lions if they mate now it will take two and a half years to three years for the hypothetical cubs to reach maturity, by then they would be what 14 almost 15 years, how likely would that be for two old male lions to defend a territory and a pride against bigger and younger lion coalitions, they are both magnificent lions but them taking control over a pride this late in life won't be very fruitful.(05-07-2018, 05:38 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Credits to Tiffany Franks - Singita.
One of the most incredible and powerful things I have I ever witnessed in my whole life!!
A Matimba male mating with one of the Othawa lionesses. Exciting times in the Sands! So very blessed to see these things in person and to witness nature at its best.
It's good to see them bounce back, hope they can stay for some time.
Ginger roar is a little rusty but it will clear out overtime now that there in the process of takeover.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Leroy - 05-08-2018
The old boys spotted in west londolozi and the western sector scent marking (James Tyrell londolozi blog) Was always a toss up as to who was going to get this turf now the majings are all dead but the old boys have managed to sneak over and reported to be mating with Othawa lioness. Who would of thought the matimbas of all coalitions spotted near death, roaming everywhere could somehow sneak through and set up shop in the west sector? makes you wonder if these lions have a sixth sense, how did they detect it was empty? lack of scent? lack of roaring? this territory had birminghams name written all over it. Truly remarkable creatures.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Tshokwane - 05-08-2018
Credits to Nick du Plessis - Singita.
The Matimba males are very quickly making the area their own
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: the Matimba coalition - swtlei4u - 05-08-2018
the only chance they would have is if the magheni and magheni breakaway lioness keep the birmingham busy mating where they will probably stick around until they have cubs and head west but the only problem would be that the Ottawa male would have to leave sooner then later!
RE: the Matimba coalition - sik94 - 05-08-2018
(05-08-2018, 09:40 PM)swtlei4u Wrote: the only chance they would have is if the magheni and magheni breakaway lioness keep the birmingham busy mating where they will probably stick around until they have cubs and head west but the only problem would be that the Ottawa male would have to leave sooner then later!
The Birminghams are not in that much of a hurry to get to the west, they are still trying to keep the northeast under control and just cant hold that much territory. The Matimbas know they have struck the jackpot and if the cards fall their way they might just get to go out the same way as the Majingalanes.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Chris - 05-08-2018
(05-08-2018, 09:52 PM)sik94 Wrote:(05-08-2018, 09:40 PM)swtlei4u Wrote: the only chance they would have is if the magheni and magheni breakaway lioness keep the birmingham busy mating where they will probably stick around until they have cubs and head west but the only problem would be that the Ottawa male would have to leave sooner then later!
The Birminghams are not in that much of a hurry to get to the west, they are still trying to keep the northeast under control and just cant hold that much territory. The Matimbas know they have struck the jackpot and if the cards fall their way they might just get to go out the same way as the Majingalanes.
Your right and I feel like they really want to stay with the kambula so the matimbas still have time have Cubs if the Birminghams really want to go to the west.
RE: the Matimba coalition - sik94 - 05-08-2018
(05-08-2018, 10:02 PM)Chris Wrote:(05-08-2018, 09:52 PM)sik94 Wrote:(05-08-2018, 09:40 PM)swtlei4u Wrote: the only chance they would have is if the magheni and magheni breakaway lioness keep the birmingham busy mating where they will probably stick around until they have cubs and head west but the only problem would be that the Ottawa male would have to leave sooner then later!
The Birminghams are not in that much of a hurry to get to the west, they are still trying to keep the northeast under control and just cant hold that much territory. The Matimbas know they have struck the jackpot and if the cards fall their way they might just get to go out the same way as the Majingalanes.
Your right and I feel like they really want to stay with the kambula so the matimbas still have time have Cubs if the Birminghams really want to go to the west.
The Matimbas might be able to father cubs if time permits but they are too old to see those cubs to sub-adulthood.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Leroy - 05-09-2018
(05-08-2018, 10:09 PM)sik94 Wrote:(05-08-2018, 10:02 PM)Chris Wrote:(05-08-2018, 09:52 PM)sik94 Wrote:(05-08-2018, 09:40 PM)swtlei4u Wrote: the only chance they would have is if the magheni and magheni breakaway lioness keep the birmingham busy mating where they will probably stick around until they have cubs and head west but the only problem would be that the Ottawa male would have to leave sooner then later!
The Birminghams are not in that much of a hurry to get to the west, they are still trying to keep the northeast under control and just cant hold that much territory. The Matimbas know they have struck the jackpot and if the cards fall their way they might just get to go out the same way as the Majingalanes.
Your right and I feel like they really want to stay with the kambula so the matimbas still have time have Cubs if the Birminghams really want to go to the west.
The Matimbas might be able to father cubs if time permits but they are too old to see those cubs to sub-adulthood.
How old are the southern matimbas? isn't hairy belly like 12? surprised his swimmers are still going strong (unless it was ginger that had a go on the lioness?) would be great to see them raise cubs to adulthood. I'm amazed that they have managed to sneak in and take old majing territory. Almost like a 6th sense. They were dotting around everywhere and suddenly make a beeline for majingi territory. Must of noticed lack of scent, lack of roars etc.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Tshokwane - 05-09-2018
(05-09-2018, 11:21 AM)Leroy Wrote: How old are the southern matimbas? isn't hairy belly like 12?
They're about that age. The Majingilane were 13-14, and the Matimba males are about a year younger.
RE: the Matimba coalition - Michael - 05-09-2018
(05-09-2018, 04:00 PM)Tshokwane Wrote:I think it's 14 and 13 respectively with the possibility of Dark Mane being close to 15(05-09-2018, 11:21 AM)Leroy Wrote: How old are the southern matimbas? isn't hairy belly like 12?
They're about that age. The Majingilane were 13-14, and the Matimba males are about a year younger.