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+----- Thread: Plains Camp Males (/topic-plains-camp-males)
RE: Plains Camp Males - Rui Ferreira - 10-17-2024
(10-17-2024, 02:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Something already discussed here on WF a few times, that I find interesting is what cubs means to male lions.First of all, thank you for this beatiful text, Im surely going back to read again this in the future
These recent PCM visits to the Tsalala pride reminded me of those discussions.
Like, what the Tsalala pride has to offer to the PCM? The female can't mate and isn't like they are visiting in hopes for easy meals, otherwise they'd visit the Manghenis instead as 3 females can bring bigger prey down, however they avoid them just like they avoid their other older cubs, the NK Breakaways.
We have also never seen them with Tsalala before, the mating period aside, they never showed up when she was pregnant or denning ( for all we know ).
But now they're showing up consistently ( at least for now ), could it be because of cubs? Could male lions to some degree have some instinct to go pay a visit to see if his small cubs are fine?
Of course every lion has its own personality, some more affectionate towards cubs, others not so much, and so on.
We know lions take over territories and prides mainly to have a space that belongs to them where they can hunt and control, as well as have females within the territory to mate and get free food. They enjoy their coalition partners company the most and mostly only seek females for food and mating, unless they are a solo male where the company of females is all they can get.
However for males like the PCM, there's no benefit in visiting the Tsalalas, there's nothing there for them beside, maybe, going to check on the cubs.
Obviously male lions abandon cubs and barely have any nurturing instincts towards cubs, but these cubs have to mean something to them, but to what degree?
They obviously know that killing cubs make the females go into estrus, but when they believe the cubs belong to them, they don't kill them. I remember a video of the S.Avocas trying to push a small cub off a kill but they were struggling hard because they weren't able to easily intimidate and chase the cub off, and since it looked like their instinct didn't allow them to attack the cub, they almost failed at pushing the cub away.
When you think about it, not hurting the cub seemed like an important thing for the S.Avoca male.
Obviously, these animals wouldn't be hear today if their own fathers killed them, even solitary cats like leopards and tigers have documented interactions between male and cubs, and being social cats, it's natural that lions would have stronger bonds with cubs.
I wonder if to some degree the males can "understand" that the cubs are their "legacy". I remember Doctor Craig Packer speculating that some male lions may act "suicidal", charging at 3 other males alone for example, because they have an urge to pass on their genes and their time to do it is very limited so they may not want to get ousted in their prime no matter what.
Or course, such instances are rare and I'm skeptical if the existance of cubs makes males any more willing to defend a territory, but it's a possibility. For example I don't think the Mlowathi Mapogo fought so hard against the Majingilane in any part because they had cubs, I think they just didn't want to give away their territory and mating opportunities. But at the same time, would it be possible, maybe, for the likes of S.BDM to have put some more effort if they had a more established relationship with the Nkuhumas and a lot of cubs?
Another interesting thing is the ousting of subadult males, the male wants them out, but only chases them off, they don't seriously attack or try to kill them, why? I mean, again, if that wasn't the case, they'd go extinct, but that means that even the subadult son means something for the fathers, they don't want their sons in their territory, but won't threaten their lives, it an unrelated subadult shows up they'll kill him, but if their sons shows up, they'll only chase them off, and sometimes even tolerate them post-ousting, here and there, as we've seen many times, which makes me wonder how male lions sees their cubs, what the cubs means to them, their importance and so on.
If I had to give my opinion I´d say in the end everything comes down to individual personality
For example lets say PCM like a more chill environment where they can rest from time to time, might aswell while doing that make sure their young offspring is safe ( a pride with 2/3 cubs like we see with Tsalala and Xim pride is the best of both worlds), but if we look at the Manghenis maybe 10 cubs jumping all around is just not what PCM prefer
Another factor might be just as simple as " I like these lionesses over the others"
For example:
PCM first cubs with Mangheni came like what? an year later of them controling the pride ( might need to get fact checked on this one but I believe it was a long time IIRC), but if we look at their relationship with Tsalala, she got pregnant almost immediately, can that idicate that they prefer Tsalala and Nkuhumas/Ximunghue etc.. over the Mangheni lionesses? Maybe, could be the other way around? Maybe, the thing is lions have preferences
While you see Makunga regulary checking Tsalala, mating with Ottawas etc in the west, his brother was always more fixated with Nkuhuma Pride, winning mating rights, appearing alone in the north etc...
Another example of preferences might be shown by who the lions like to hang out with, some lions like to hang out with little cubs when they are in the pride, others take the male sub adults for a trip
About them not killing their own offspring ( most of the times), every living being as an instinct to generate new living being out of their genes, ( atleast has the instinct to mate)
The reason of being alive is to spread your genes ( atleast thats what my biology teacher always said) so theres a natural instinct to not kill for example the male subs when its time to leave
For the dominant males would make more sense for the boys to hang around there and help the pride with hunting and helping protecting the territory
but it just makes sense to make them move far far away and with some luck continue to spread your genes far away from the natal pride where you dont need that due to already having your genes there
Even for the sub adult males, something tells them to leave the pride, that theres more benefit in moving away and find unrelated females to mate
for example why would Khanya leave his sisters? It would make sense for him a male, to stay with 4 young females
for example why do females who come into extrus prefer to find another males than their own father if their still dominant of the pride?
Everything in my opinion is a mix of personality with instincts wich is very hard to explain
RE: Plains Camp Males - Duco Ndona - 10-17-2024
The lionesses probably also play a factor. Tsalala and the Othawas are nomadic groups and would only risk contacting a male during esterous. While the Nkuhumas and Mangheni are more established and thus can risk having males hang around them for longer times. Even when they are not receptive to mating.
Cubs are in the end of the day competition. Eventually they just get too big and have to get in line or get out. Especially if they are male cubs they bring a unwanted dynamic to the group that just isnt there with females. So they get kicked out.
RE: Plains Camp Males - KM600 - 10-17-2024
(10-17-2024, 02:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Something already discussed here on WF a few times, that I find interesting is what cubs means to male lions.
These recent PCM visits to the Tsalala pride reminded me of those discussions.
Like, what the Tsalala pride has to offer to the PCM? The female can't mate and isn't like they are visiting in hopes for easy meals, otherwise they'd visit the Manghenis instead as 3 females can bring bigger prey down, however they avoid them just like they avoid their other older cubs, the NK Breakaways.
We have also never seen them with Tsalala before, the mating period aside, they never showed up when she was pregnant or denning ( for all we know ).
But now they're showing up consistently ( at least for now ), could it be because of cubs? Could male lions to some degree have some instinct to go pay a visit to see if his small cubs are fine?
Of course every lion has its own personality, some more affectionate towards cubs, others not so much, and so on.
We know lions take over territories and prides mainly to have a space that belongs to them where they can hunt and control, as well as have females within the territory to mate and get free food. They enjoy their coalition partners company the most and mostly only seek females for food and mating, unless they are a solo male where the company of females is all they can get.
However for males like the PCM, there's no benefit in visiting the Tsalalas, there's nothing there for them beside, maybe, going to check on the cubs.
Obviously male lions abandon cubs and barely have any nurturing instincts towards cubs, but these cubs have to mean something to them, but to what degree?
They obviously know that killing cubs make the females go into estrus, but when they believe the cubs belong to them, they don't kill them. I remember a video of the S.Avocas trying to push a small cub off a kill but they were struggling hard because they weren't able to easily intimidate and chase the cub off, and since it looked like their instinct didn't allow them to attack the cub, they almost failed at pushing the cub away.
When you think about it, not hurting the cub seemed like an important thing for the S.Avoca male.
Obviously, these animals wouldn't be here today if their own fathers killed them, even solitary cats like leopards and tigers have documented interactions between male and cubs, and being social cats, it's natural that lions would have stronger bonds with cubs.
I wonder if to some degree the males can "understand" that the cubs are their "legacy". I remember Doctor Craig Packer speculating that some male lions may act "suicidal", charging at 3 other males alone for example, because they have an urge to pass on their genes and their time to do it is very limited so they may not want to get ousted in their prime no matter what.
Of course, such instances are rare and I'm skeptical if the existance of cubs makes males any more willing to defend a territory, but it's a possibility. For example I don't think the Mlowathi Mapogo fought so hard against the Majingilane in any way because they had cubs, I think they just didn't want to give away their territory and mating opportunities. But at the same time, would it be possible, maybe, for the likes of S.BDM to have put some more effort if they had a more established relationship with the Nkuhumas and a lot of cubs?
Another interesting thing is the ousting of subadult males, the male wants them out, but only chases them off, they don't seriously attack or try to kill them, why? I mean, again, if that wasn't the case, they'd go extinct, but that means that even the subadult son means something for the fathers, they don't want their sons in their territory, but won't threaten their lives, if an unrelated subadult shows up they'll kill him, but if their sons shows up, they'll only chase them off, and sometimes even tolerate them post-ousting, here and there, as we've seen many times, which makes me wonder how male lions sees their cubs, what the cubs means to them, their importance and so on.
I think every male has a different type of bond with their offspring and cubs in general, whether that's brothers / sisters / cousins from their natal pride or unrelated cubs they come across. There is definitely something in the back of their minds which tells them to create a legacy for themselves and in some ways care for their eventual cubs instead of killing them but whether this is basic instinct along with something else, we can't say for sure. We do however know their minds either aren't developed enough or care for cubs they don't believe they sired, and will in most cases kill them, even if it's offspring of their own brother.
In terms of the actual bond that goes into a father and his cubs, I don't think it's completely dependant on the father. For example with many of us, there will be one person u just never completely bonded with, in my case with certain family members, and because of that u were never willing to try and develop that relationship. It's not like cubs / subadults are forced to spend time with their fathers when they're around, they do it because of that bond between the two, same way we've seen males who don't care for their cubs in the slightest, the best thing they've done for them is allow them to stay alive.
I remember a story about Makhulu I seen while researching about the Mapogos which has stuck with me til this day, u also shared it in the Mapogo thread. The story about Mapogo and the remaining Sand River Pride cub. For those of u not aware of this story, brief summary, this was the only surviving cub of that pride after the rest of the pride were shot. He was following other prides that were also controlled by his fathers, and at one point was caught by a whole pride, Makhulu come out of nowhere to defend him and then let him feed on two separate meals over two different days after chasing his own pride off their own kill. The cub died as he was never accepted by the pride, as Makhulu later went elsewhere in his territory prolly patrolling, leaving the cub to succumb to starvation. That's my favourite lion story to this day, despite the obvious tragedy. Makhulu had no reason to help the male in so many ways but done it because it was instinctual to him atleast, and showed what a great, caring father he always was.
Despite how much of a great father he was, both him and PB left their territory when Selatis finally become serious for a complete takeover, leaving cubs to die. U can obviously make the point PB was in bad health and Mr T was already separated and eventually caught so there wasn't much Makhulu could do, even being old himself, but this in my opinion, this proves these lions don't act 'suicidal.' We don't know if any thinking goes into these decisions, but if it did I'm sure it would be something of an understanding that they can't do any more, they could die protecting their prides but the intruders will eventually catch up with them anyways.
It's like with Othawa Male, do I believe he was really suicidal, no, but his actions to us make it seem that way. I believe he genuinely thought that he could manage himself against the BBoys, whether it be taking territory off them or claiming their females.
One of the best relationships I've personally seen between offspring and their sire, was both Talamati brothers and Dark Mane, especially Dzwihala. He was often seen patrolling with Dark Mane and u could even say both brothers helped Dark Mane live for as long as he did, helping him both in supplying food and even backing him against S8 at young ages. They had no reason to do this, if we were all being honest, Dark Mane didn't have any upside to these boys, they just stayed with him because of that close bond they had since being born. Real loyalty.
As I've said before with PCMs, Tsalala Pride territory is great in order to keep contact with the males. It's an area that PCMs cross when going back and forth between Ximhungwes and Nkuhumas, now am I sure PCMs would stay checking up on them if they were further South like Mhangenis or Othawas, I'm not so sure. It's actually one thing that will be most interesting if Othawas conceive to PCMs. I'm also interested in how much PCMs help with the hunting in any pride they're with, we know they are certainly successful hunters otherwise they wouldn't have made it through their nomadic stage, but do they actually sacrifice for their females and cubs. I was thinking this as I seen a photo of Tsalala lioness trying to bring down a buffalo yesterday with neither PCM in sight, but still in the area, I believe watching the cubs.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Mapokser - 10-18-2024
That story of the Sand River cub is indeed true, Leopard Hills even said how it looked like the cub was under the protection of the Mapogo.
But I don't remember if it was ever said which Mapogo it was, I think I record seeing a photo, but I don't remember if I could identify the Mapogo in there.
As for the Othawa male, I tend to agree with a theory by Londolozi that he heard one of the subadults contact calling and charged after him, bumping onto the pride and Bboys.
But going back to the PCM, the Manghenis roam all of Singita, they don't meet with the PCM because the PCM avoids them.
I'd be willing to bet that if Othawas have cubs, PCM will start visiting them and Tsalala while leaving the older pride, Ximgungwes, by themselves.
It seems like their modus operandi, same as some other males, with the difference that many other males also favor bigger prides over newer, smaller prides.
PCM doesn't seem to care about pride size since they abandoned Mangheni with 5 females and 10 cubs, they apparently will focus on newer prides with younger cubs.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Duco Ndona - 10-18-2024
I think if the PCmales had any intention of spending serious time with the Tsalalas and Othawas. We would have more sightings of them meeting by now.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Vengeous - 10-18-2024
(10-18-2024, 01:03 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think if the PCmales had any intention of spending serious time with the Tsalalas and Othawas. We would have more sightings of them meeting by now.
Makhunga's brother spends plenty of time with the Tsalala lioness, now that more footage is coming out of Singita he's been with her at least thrice over the last 2 weeks, for a significant portion of time. The problem is that very little footage comes out from Singita - the guides there don't post very often. For example, in their blog they mentioned one of the Othawas mating with the PCMs, but we've still not seen any footage of it. Singita is a bit of a black spot when it comes to our view of lion dynamics in the west. The reveal of more pictures of the Tsalala lioness and her cubs hopefully reflects a change in this context.
RE: Plains Camp Males - KM600 - 10-18-2024
(10-18-2024, 12:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote: That story of the Sand River cub is indeed true, Leopard Hills even said how it looked like the cub was under the protection of the Mapogo.
But I don't remember if it was ever said which Mapogo it was, I think I record seeing a photo, but I don't remember if I could identify the Mapogo in there.
As for the Othawa male, I tend to agree with a theory by Londolozi that he heard one of the subadults contact calling and charged after him, bumping onto the pride and Bboys.
But going back to the PCM, the Manghenis roam all of Singita, they don't meet with the PCM because the PCM avoids them.
I'd be willing to bet that if Othawas have cubs, PCM will start visiting them and Tsalala while leaving the older pride, Ximgungwes, by themselves.
It seems like their modus operandi, same as some other males, with the difference that many other males also favor bigger prides over newer, smaller prides.
PCM doesn't seem to care about pride size since they abandoned Mangheni with 5 females and 10 cubs, they apparently will focus on newer prides with younger cubs.
Don't want to get too off topic but it seems you're right, I thought they had referred to the male as the 'largest Mapogo' which would have been Makhulu eventho we know Dreadlocks was just as big, but instead they say 'one large male lion from the Mapogo coalition.' I still believe it was likely Makhulu as he was seen a lot by himself with Othawa Pride, but it's not as evident as I thought. By the way, when ppl talk of how little the Mapogos achieved in terms of spreading their bloodline, the Sand River Pride has to be taken into account, we can't overlook the death of a whole pride just to further a point about them being underachieving.
With OM, he was seen heading towards the heart of Kambula and BB territory supposedly hearing calls which sounded like a lioness which would make more sense, this is according to a ranger who was the last person on Earth to spend time with OM. The same roars in the distance were also heard after OM roaring himself, if that's true, I don't think young males would respond close enough to a big male if they had heard him. I think there might be a video somewhere of the interaction, but the ranger was essentially calling out to OM who was walking past his vehicle in a somewhat chuffing sound. In his own words he said he done this to genuinely try to warn OM of the danger ahead and try and make him head back, OM paid him some attention before ultimately setting off into the darkness. I definitely believe he was distracted by something, whether lioness or young male, and that's how he was caught but had already made up his mind prior to that distraction about seeking out the pride.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Hairy tummy - 10-18-2024
RE: Plains Camp Males - Mapokser - 10-18-2024
S.Avoca & Kruger male on PCM territory in the West, they gotta act quickly and remove the threat since females can do little against 2 males.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Tr1x24 - 10-18-2024
(10-18-2024, 08:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: S.Avoca & Kruger male on PCM territory in the West, they gotta act quickly and remove the threat since females can do little against 2 males.
Can we stop overreacting every time when random nomads show up in/near PCMs territory ??
No one did anything, as these 2 will prob not aswell, ecspecially considering their age, they are just looking for food, not for territory takeover.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Ttimemarti - 10-18-2024
I would say I’m not worried because of the southern avoca but Kruger male i don’t know he was just a dominant male a month ago southern avoca has been a nomad for long time now not worried but on edge I guess because of the Kruger male
RE: Plains Camp Males - Tr1x24 - 10-18-2024
(10-18-2024, 10:23 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: I would say I’m not worried because of the southern avoca but Kruger male i don’t know he was just a dominant male a month ago southern avoca has been a nomad for long time now not worried but on edge I guess because of the Kruger male
PCMs are lately most time in their former territory in the west/Singita (looks like their expansion north is stale for now, Kambulas are even mating with NKs recently), so chances that 2 old males who are together for what, 1 month? Challenge and beat them are pretty slim, it would be foolish to even try.
RE: Plains Camp Males - Fenix123 - 10-19-2024
1/2 Plains Camp Male
Credits to jordan_delveccs
RE: Plains Camp Males - Vengeous - 10-20-2024
(10-18-2024, 10:02 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(10-18-2024, 08:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: S.Avoca & Kruger male on PCM territory in the West, they gotta act quickly and remove the threat since females can do little against 2 males.
Can we stop overreacting every time when random nomads show up in/near PCMs territory ??
No one did anything, as these 2 will prob not aswell, ecspecially considering their age, they are just looking for food, not for territory takeover.
There is some truth to this notion of an overreaction - barely anyone said anything about the Ndzhenga males flushing the Southern Avoca out when he was seen with the K6 lioness, and neither did anyone say anything when both the Kruger Male and the Southern Avoca were spotted in Londolozi.
But also, the PCMs have lost at least 2 Mangheni cubs to a territorial conflict between prides in the last few months, so there's some merit to that concern. (Worth noting that it was probably the Kambulas that killed their cubs, rather than Tumbela, in this apparent altercation).
RE: Plains Camp Males - Mapokser - 10-20-2024
@Tr1x24 Nobody is talking anything about Kruger & S.Avoca challenging the PCM, I was never concerned about PCM being overthrown, I clearly said my worries were regarding the prides meeting the nomads. Do you think a lightning bolt will strike the nomads to stop them from attacking the cubs just because they don't want to take over? Or the lion police will arrest them? Nothing is stopping them but the PCM. Avoca & Kruger weren't exactly close but were in the same reserve ( Savanna ) as Manghenis.
If they find the prides there's a big chance they may kill the cubs. Kruger male was just roaring and scent-marking the Nkuhuma territory with the NK pride days ago, if he find small cubs nothing stops Avoca and him from killing them, unless PCM chase them off.
@Vengeous there was concern with Ndhzengas, in the Londolozi virtual safari itself it was said the PCM were close to the Ntsevu pride for instance. S.Avoca alone wouldn't be a huge threat to Ntsevus, if it comes to it.
Nonetheless, Kambula pride is big, it has 5 adult lionesses and a lot of near 2yo male subs.
They can deal with 2 nomads if it comes to it. The prides in the West can't, even the largest pride, Manghenis, didn't chase off a single weak Tumbela.
What could Ximhungwe or Tsalala do if they find 2 males?
Also, when the young Charleston sons were in Gijima territory, there were talks about it and Gijimas moved quickly to remove them, they were close to the Southern Pride.
Same with Nkhulus who were after the Southern Prides once, but again LM Gijima chased them off, and this is the Gijima's "abandoned" pride.