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+----- Thread: The Tumbela Coalition (/topic-the-tumbela-coalition)
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RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 07-30-2022
(07-30-2022, 02:04 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Thats unexpected but understandable..
Then again. Hairy Belly returned, as did Red Road , Nhenha and DarkMane. I guess its more common than our normal understanding of lions led us to believe
Question is, is he going stay?
Ouestion is, is this some logical thinking behind it, like idk, exploring new options and see what is out there, but eventually that he planed to returned back (less likely).
Or just purely based of instinct, like "hey, that pride provided me free meals, lets find them again" (more likely).
We will have to see how he will behave, he might just follow them in nomadic manners and for food, in that case he will prob leave again.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 07-30-2022
A combination of the two likely.
As life as a nomad is rough and started to wear on him again. His instinct would tell him to seek out prides for food etc. But he made the concious decision that the best pride he knows of to get food from is the Othawa pride.
Had he ran into a more suitable pride for that in the meantime, he would have never returned to them.
Its not a matter of instinct vs reason, but rather expressing instinct through reason.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 07-30-2022
(07-30-2022, 02:47 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: A combination of the two likely.
As life as a nomad is rough and started to wear on him again. His instinct would tell him to seek out prides for food etc. But he made the concious decision that the best pride he knows of to get food from is the Othawa pride.
Had he ran into a more suitable pride for that in the meantime, he would have never returned to them.
Its not a matter of instinct vs reason, but rather expressing instinct through reason.
Yea, agree.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Bellateda - 07-30-2022
Quote:As life as a nomad is rough and started to wear on him again. His instinct would tell him to seek out prides for food etc. But he made the concious decision that the best pride he knows of to get food from is the Othawa pride.
Had he ran into a more suitable pride for that in the meantime, he would have never returned to them.
He was away for less than 2 weeks. Was he so tired from hunting for himself that he went back?
Being alone is daunting for lions, I notice, they seek for company. Even two unrelated lionesses who could survive on their own still sometimes form a bond, as we see with Gingerella and possibly with that Mhangeni and Tsalala.
The question is, is his return a good thing or bad for the pride? If he can't defend them, then he is useless, he will just attract more attention and get their food.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - lionuk - 07-30-2022
That look in his eyes- Skorro jr means Business!
Vid Credit: Dulini
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - 1ofCourage - 07-30-2022
(07-30-2022, 06:17 PM)lionuk Wrote: That look in his eyes- Skorro jr means Business!
Vid Credit: Dulini
He’s a beauty for sure.
Every single male lion in that area has a unique appearance. They are all quite different. The mix is wonderful.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Wyld@Heart - 07-31-2022
(07-30-2022, 03:55 PM)Bellateda Wrote: The question is, is his return a good thing or bad for the pride? If he can't defend them, then he is useless, he will just attract more attention and get their food.
He's a powerful male lion in his prime. Under pressure from numerically more powerful coalitions to be sure but it's not 1 v 3 or 4 but 1 v 2 either way. If it comes to it and he comes against just a single male from one of the rival coalitions it's likely the pride will back him up as well for the sake of the pride. It's hardly outside the realms of possibility, it's happened before and will happen again.
On paper it seems a foregone conclusion but these animals don't live on paper; one of the rivals may get separated from his partner, be distracted by another female, get injured... anything can happen, literally. Skorro Jnr is the pride male of this pride, he's hardly useless. His roars alone broadcast that the territory will need to be fought over, a silent land means other males will move in to explore in a matter of when and not if forcing the Othawa's to either give in and lose the cubs or go nomadic. This way, they at least have a chance.
Look, Skorro might get attacked and kicked out anyway and the pride may lose the cubs or go nomadic. It is possible. Thinking of that as the only conclusion, however, is incorrect.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 07-31-2022
Its going to largely depend on how he behaves.
If he accepts his situation and becomes a true teamplayer with the pride. He is a good asset.
If he continues behaving as a territorial male, keeps drawing attention by rroaring, doesnt contribute in hunting etc and keeps stealing pride kills. The pride will be better of without him.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - lionuk - 07-31-2022
From 5:52 mark- Skorro jr rejoined the Othawa Pride
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Wyld@Heart - 07-31-2022
(07-31-2022, 05:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If he continues behaving as a territorial male, keeps drawing attention by rroaring, doesnt contribute in hunting etc and keeps stealing pride kills. The pride will be better of without him.I'm sorry but that's not how it works. Male lions are a drain on pride resources; it's just the way lion behaviour is. That said, males do contribute and they do get the lion's share, as it were. It's the trade off the pride makes for being able to raise cubs into the next generation for the pride. Also, there seems to be a misconception about 'drawing attention'. Lions roar and scent mark. Again, it is lion behaviour. When they go silent it's an indication of now going under the radar, becoming semi-nomadic nomadic altogether or ceasing to exist.
During the culling period in the Kruger, it was noted with some surprise at how quickly areas where culling of lions had taken place were inhabited again by other lions. Scent and sound are enormously important to lion dynamics, it just about provides a map of what is around them and defines territories and when there is no sound or scent from an area lions eventually move into it. Having a territorial male is what binds lion prides together and keeps out the competition and without them, even if it is just one male, pride dynamics would collapse as males would come and go, the lionesses would be extremely overstressed and cubs would simply not get the chance to reach adulthood. You can't really say the pride would be better off without him and expect it to be true in practice as what you think would happen with him i.e. males coming in because they know he's there, will happen anyway if males think the territory is unoccupied. The pride stands a better chance with him behaving as a territorial male and at least attempting to defend them than have them open to incursions and the uncertainty of nomad life.
Now whether he will actually stay and defend or be able to hold the territory is unclear. I am not saying he will stay nor saying that he will be able hold it but that:
1. The pride needs stability and a territorial male gives that and that Skorro would hopefully behave like one.
2. The uncertainty of the bush at any time means that Skorro being ousted in a takeover, should he stay, is by no means a foregone conclusuon.
3. Any pride with cubs/sub adults are better off with a territorial male, even if it's just a single male, than without one and being forced to live on the margins to protect them.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - 1ofCourage - 07-31-2022
(07-31-2022, 07:23 PM)Wyld@Heart Wrote:When the Tintswalo males took over and Red Road lost many of his 17 cubs and one lioness, he moved his pride way down south. They went so fast and far it nearly killed his remaining cubs. A very much needed buffalo meal saved the weakest of them for sure.(07-31-2022, 05:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If he continues behaving as a territorial male, keeps drawing attention by rroaring, doesnt contribute in hunting etc and keeps stealing pride kills. The pride will be better of without him.I'm sorry but that's not how it works. Male lions are a drain on pride resources; it's just the way lion behaviour is. That said, males do contribute and they do get the lion's share, as it were. It's the trade off the pride makes for being able to raise cubs into the next generation for the pride. Also, there seems to be a misconception about 'drawing attention'. Lions roar and scent mark. Again, it is lion behaviour. When they go silent it's an indication of now going under the radar, becoming semi-nomadic nomadic altogether or ceasing to exist.
During the culling period in the Kruger, it was noted with some surprise at how quickly areas where culling of lions had taken place were inhabited again by other lions. Scent and sound are enormously important to lion dynamics, it just about provides a map of what is around them and defines territories and when there is no sound or scent from an area lions eventually move into it. Having a territorial male is what binds lion prides together and keeps out the competition and without them, even if it is just one male, pride dynamics would collapse as males would come and go, the lionesses would be extremely overstressed and cubs would simply not get the chance to reach adulthood. You can't really say the pride would be better off without him and expect it to be true in practice as what you think would happen with him i.e. males coming in because they know he's there, will happen anyway if males think the territory is unoccupied. The pride stands a better chance with him behaving as a territorial male and at least attempting to defend them than have them open to incursions and the uncertainty of nomad life.
Now whether he will actually stay and defend or be able to hold the territory is unclear. I am not saying he will stay nor saying that he will be able hold it but that:
1. The pride needs stability and a territorial male gives that and that Skorro would hopefully behave like one.
2. The uncertainty of the bush at any time means that Skorro being ousted in a takeover, should he stay, is by no means a foregone conclusuon.
3. Any pride with cubs/sub adults are better off with a territorial male, even if it's just a single male, than without one and being forced to live on the margins to protect them.
Since then RR has moved the pride constantly. I believe it’s his #1 tactic for protection. He does patrol and behave as a territorial male, but not when it’s 4:1.
He seems to have a much bigger area than
Socorro Jr had. He had more choices.
Skorro WILL help with the hunts and I believe won’t be a strain that Limper may have been.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Tr1x24 - 07-31-2022
(07-31-2022, 07:56 PM)1ofCourage Wrote: When the Tintswalo males took over and Red Road lost many of his 17 cubs and one lioness, he moved his pride way down south. They went so fast and far it nearly killed his remaining cubs. A very much needed buffalo meal saved the weakest of them for sure.
Since then RR has moved the pride constantly. I believe it’s his #1 tactic for protection. He does patrol and behave as a territorial male, but not when it’s 4:1.
He seems to have a much bigger area than
Socorro Jr had. He had more choices.
Male lions dont "move" the prides, prides operate on the borders of their territorial male/coalition.
When RRM clashed with Tintswalos, it was Nharus who moved south to avoid Tintswalos, as RRM went silent, then RRM rejoin them when he recovered.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Duco Ndona - 07-31-2022
Males are not the cornerstones of lion dynamics. They are not their leader or anything like that. The pride will remain just as stable if he is there than if he wasn't. Especially a well oiled experienced pride like the Othowas.
I think you are also underestimating the situation Skorro is in right now. Things are getting crowded in western sector with the various new prides and coalitions that are taking up up shop in or near it and he is slowly being pressed in a corner.
The Birminghams and PCmales have their own prides to protect. And with Skorro being this close, if not in their territory, they are more likely going to see him as a threat that needs to be removed.
Being dragged in territorial fights between males is the last thing the pride needs right now. The less fights the better. If Skorro keeps his head low, they will have a lot less fights. While still having a male lion present should the groups accidentally run into eachother and help with hunting. Thats going to be the best way Skorro can help his pride right now.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - 1ofCourage - 07-31-2022
(07-31-2022, 05:05 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its going to largely depend on how he behaves.
If he accepts his situation and becomes a true teamplayer with the pride. He is a good asset.
If he continues behaving as a territorial male, keeps drawing attention by rroaring, doesnt contribute in hunting etc and keeps stealing pride kills. The pride will be better of without him.
Of course. We'll have to watch.
I wonder if Skorro Jr may disappear again but for the reason to gather reconnaissance about where the pride could go.
RE: The Tumbela Coalition - Bellateda - 07-31-2022
Male lions do attract attentionof rivals because they search fro fertile females. Skorro may wander off if he hears some call and other males will go after him.
In semi-nomadic state a male is not a big asset.
I think he can babysit cubs while females hunt, though. In case some hyenas come.