(12-19-2018, 10:29 AM)Sanju Wrote: They are saying new subspecies.

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(06-13-2015, 10:54 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

sanjay\ dateline='\'1433932475' Wrote: Question to Guate, Peter and other lion experts
According to classification of Lion (I read first from Gaute posts) Barbary Lion is same as Asiatic Lion. But when I see images of Barbary Lion (in captivity) Their physical appearance seems to be different from any other lion sub species including Asiatic. And its clearly very visible. Look at the following images
Barbary Lion form Hillside

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And finally sultan

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Look at the face cuts. Certainly they are different then any other lion sub species.

I know science prove them same but the mind and vision do not agree on this.

Scientifically I am convince that they are same species but heart and vision say did science make error in this case ?
I want to hear your views, Apart of science

 

Like Pckts said, the problem here is how "pure" are those lions? The answer is "zero". Yes, the last genetic test on the lions in the Rabat Zoo (considered the most pure in existence) showed that they are Central African lions from maternal origin and just Barbary from paternal side. That is why Dr Yamaguchi desisted of his project of reintroduction. In fact, the last study of Dr Barnett and Yamaguchi (2015, I think) showed that the Indian lions are more "Barbary" than those of the Rabat zoo, and that they are the most plausible for a reintroduction.

What you are seeing here is not the "barbary" face, but just 3 lions with wide faces, even the fourth and last lion is no different than some of the huge Crater lions from East Africa. It is possible that males from the north of Africa do had large heads, Yamaguchi quoted a maximum of c.360 mm but J. H. Mazák probably measured one of c.410-420 mm, a real giant but still no significantly larger than the largest from East Africa (c.406 cm) and of the same size than the largest of Southern Africa (419 mm according with Dr Hemmer), without mentioning the giant skull of c.430 cm (which came from Rowland Ward Records of Big Game).

Old zoologist used the same method that you used here, they classified they lion "subspecies" based in external characteristics, but only used one or two lions for that, and most of the time, captive specimens. That is why there are so many lion "subspecies" in literature, but at the end, that is not the case. Genetic studies showed that there are only 2 subspecies with they own clades, and in this form, west and north African lions belongs to the same group that Indian ones. If you see a picture of lions in west Africa, they are like a copy-past of Indian lions. The Barbary ones lived in a different habitat, with a larger mane and probably other adaptations (larger mouths and noises?), but those are just clinal differences, like Dr Kitchener showed in tigers. Morphological differences are not enough to erect a "subspecies", there most be a deeper analysis and supported by the use of DNA and a large sample of specimens. In this case, evidence suggest that Barbary lions are of the same "Asian" group, which invaded Africa from Persia, after the return of the desertic areas to the center of the African continent.

By the way, check these Asiatic lions:

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They also have huge faces, don't you think? And remember that these are wild males, not captive specimens like those "Barbary" ones. [img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
 

(01-12-2022, 12:58 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: Guate, i think that, the average weight of East African lion in your chart (174 kg), since it includes the average weights for all lions from East Africa, thus the value gets smaller, so can we have a chart on the different populationsof lions for example, Maasai Mara and Ngorongoro Crater to see their average weights, which I suspect would be larger than 174 kgs, as they are among the largest lions alive. So can we please get a chart which points differently at lions from each different populations In East Africa?

(01-13-2022, 11:17 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(01-12-2022, 12:58 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: Guate, i think that, the average weight of East African lion in your chart (174 kg), since it includes the average weights for all lions from East Africa, thus the value gets smaller, so can we have a chart on the different populationsof lions for example, Maasai Mara and Ngorongoro Crater to see their average weights, which I suspect would be larger than 174 kgs, as they are among the largest lions alive. So can we please get a chart which points differently at lions from each different populations In East Africa?

Yes, the figure of 174 kg for males is for the entire area. I can make an especific average for each country, but take in count that there are no weights from the Ngorongoro crater itself.

There is the popular idea that the lions from Ngorongoro are among the largest, and while the chest measurements match those of the biggest South African lions, they probably weight about the same.

(01-14-2022, 07:03 PM)acutidens150 Wrote:

(01-13-2022, 11:17 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(01-12-2022, 12:58 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: Guate, i think that, the average weight of East African lion in your chart (174 kg), since it includes the average weights for all lions from East Africa, thus the value gets smaller, so can we have a chart on the different populationsof lions for example, Maasai Mara and Ngorongoro Crater to see their average weights, which I suspect would be larger than 174 kgs, as they are among the largest lions alive. So can we please get a chart which points differently at lions from each different populations In East Africa?

Yes, the figure of 174 kg for males is for the entire area. I can make an especific average for each country, but take in count that there are no weights from the Ngorongoro crater itself.

There is the popular idea that the lions from Ngorongoro are among the largest, and while the chest measurements match those of the biggest South African lions, they probably weight about the same.

Have you heard of the 212 kg average weights for six males at age 4 in the Ngorongoro Crater? I have also heard of a 206 kg average body weight for males there, another source stated it. Although I don't have any proof to back it up.

(01-14-2022, 07:03 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: Have you heard of the 212 kg average weights for six males at age 4 in the Ngorongoro Crater? I have also heard of a 206 kg average body weight for males there, another source stated it. Although I don't have any proof to back it up.

(01-14-2022, 07:16 PM)acutidens150 Wrote: Excuse me, sorry, but are the pictures I posted visible?