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+--- Thread: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? (/topic-behind-the-big-cat-s-and-bear-s-who-is-the-top-predator)
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GrizzlyClaws - 11-02-2015
(11-02-2015, 12:15 PM)brotherbear Wrote: The most remarkable feat on the topic of hunting from my point of view is the tiger that, in recent years, had acquired a taste for rhinoceros flesh. This particular Bengal tiger had stalked, ambushed, and killed several rhinos including mature adult females. The news articles did not say what method of killing the tiger used.
The tiger with long fangs has to bite on the right area of the heck.
This rhino-hunting tiger must be a veteran hunter, since a small mistake could cost his life.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-02-2015, 09:42 AM)LGuateGojira Wrote:Thank you Guate this was helpful clarification, yes Brahman cattle can be twice the weight of zebu and where they are raised in Latin America they could fall prey to the jaguar.(10-27-2015, 09:00 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: Thanks Guate, two quick comments
1-The jaguar feeding on a tapir in Misiones Argentina showed a fine jaguar eating a tapir of similar size for less than 10 seconds, is this what you meant...also note how the jaguar is eating standing up like a dog or a hyena versus it typical cat fashion.
2-As far I know zebu cattle in India and Africa do not exceed 350 kg..do you have a reference for them weighing almost double that in South America or could this be another breed of cattle, like several European breeds
In fact, I was referring to this case:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The animal, even with the decomposition of the body, seems larger than an average jaguar, of any area.
Link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicstang/6210806401
And this skull from a large specimen, hunted by a jaguar:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Obviously, like any loner predator, they would prefer the preys of relative they own size, but this prove that like the other great cats, jaguar can and do predate on tapirs much larger than them.
On the zebu, I can talk to you from first hand. When I made a field camp in the town of El Adelanto, department of Jutiapa, in Guatemala, I investigate the business organization of the breeders of cattle in the area, and I can tell you that the animals are very large, even when the town itself is poor and with many hills, which cause that the animals do not produce too many milk as they use much of the energy to move between mountains. The point is that at least in that area and the surroundings, the cattle was of average size but very robust. In fact, the largest bull that I saw did not measured over 170 cm (excluding the hump of fat) at the shoulders but probably weighed no less than 700 kg! Cows probably weighed between 300 to 400 kg, with the larger specimens scratching the 500 kg (at least 3 cows, the larger was a black one and very aggressive). In the southern area of my country, zebus are way larger, with some bulls reaching the size of a pretty good gaur (I have saw them in person! They are very tall with that great white color) and cows are also large, this thanks to the fact that these areas are plane and with rich forage, which produce larger specimens (the cows in this areas produce the largest quantities of milk in the country).
Based in this facts, I can guess that the domestic and feral zebus in South America probably weight somewhat the same, and if we take in count that those territories are, apparently, more rich than those of my country, I guess that the zebu can be as large as those in Guatemala. I speak from my own experience, but there are areas where the cattle is smaller, like those in India and Africa, which look very skinny.
Just one clarification, the correct name of the cattle of those dimensions is Brahman, but in Guatemala it is popularly known as "cebú", with "c" in the wide sense of the word, because of the hump. However, in fact, there are several variations among the group zebú, some small and others large (like the Brahman), although all originated from India.
Like other big cats , Jaguars are amazing hunters who are capable of extraordinary hunting and predatory behaviour, they are unfortunate in the sense that the neotropics do not have many large ungulates, tapirs form a small percentage of the jaguar diets as they are a challenging prey, and so do deer since they are too agile for Jaguars most of the time.
I am most impressed with jaguar predation on crocodilians , I was told a Mexican biologist when I was in Cancun that Central American Jaguars can kill American crocodiles...I would love to see that one day, jaguar predation on caimans is also interesting, I have seen tigers, lions, leopards, and Pumas prey on crocodilians but it is only the jaguar that prey on them routinely, also it is only the jaguar who dives into deeper water and extracts a good size caiman, the other cats kill crocodilians on land or in shallow water.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 11-04-2015
Apparently, according to the study posted by @SVTIGRIS the Jaguar doesn't hunt caiman very often compared to how available they are. They were comparing prey taken between cougar and jaguar and the jaguar obviously preferred the larger prey, often taking cattle as well.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/0...s-jaguars/
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-02-2015, 12:01 PM)Spalea Wrote: A young elephant, weighing one ton or a little bit more, isn't, by far, an adult. Thus a lion or a tiger killing an adult buffalo, weighing 600 kilos, or an adult gaur, almost a ton, accomplish a much more remarkable feat than for a young elephant. Same opinion as concerns an adult giraffe for a lion. A juvenile "big prey" cannot do anything against a big lone predator. We have to put into perpective such feats, I think...
While I agree that large bovids ( particularly buffalo) are very challenging prey for big cats and pound for pound they could be more difficult to kill, they are still more easily overpowered and killed than adult giraffes, rhinos, hippos, and juvenile elephants.
The kill would involve catching the prey, wrestling it to the ground, pinning it down , applying the killing bite long enough to suffocate the animal...so killing any animal that is over 1000 kg requires tremendous effort.
Juvenile elephants may look like gentle, helpless giants they can easily flip a jeep, break a tree, and at times harass and even other large animals ( rhinos, hippos)
The fact remains that megafauna comprises less than 1% of tiger food and less than 10% of lion food, tigers are essentially hunters of cervids and suids, and lions are hunters of antelopes, zebras,and bovids..and the protection of these prey items is essential for the big cats survival.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 11-04-2015
If you want to use these numbers as 1% for tiger prey choices, you need to not include areas where guar, water buffalo, elephant and rhino do not exist.
Areas such as Bandharvgh, Bandipur, Kahna, Tadoba, Kaziranga, etc. These predations are much higher, just take a look through the tiger predation thread. You will tons of Guar predations there in the areas they exist of course. Using examples in areas where they don't exist would be incorrect for determining a predation %
But overall, of course they will hunt the easiest and most available prey to them.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:07 PM)Pckts Wrote: Apparently, according to the study posted by @SVTIGRIS the Jaguar doesn't hunt caiman very often compared to how available they are. They were comparing prey taken between cougar and jaguar and the jaguar obviously preferred the larger prey, often taking cattle as well.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/0...s-jaguars/
For sure, given that the abundant caimans can form 30-45% of all available live biomass...they form less than that of the biomass eaten by Jaguars so yes they are not preferred, caimans still live in a different habitat and are still formidable animals with dangerous weapons.
It remains remarkable however that Jaguars have evolved to exploit this food source along side turtles and iguanas, jaguars evolved in Eurasia then crossed into the Americas , now in the neotropics where wild ungulates are scarce Jaguars supplement their diet with livestock and reptiles.
Everywhere they are sympatric, jaguars kill larger prey than pumas, the only place where this is not the case is in northern Mexico ( and possibly Arizona) there Jaguars are slightly larger than pumas ( roughly 55 kg versus 45 kg) the availability of deer tips the balance to pumas the excellent deer hunters.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GrizzlyClaws - 11-04-2015
When more varieties of prey are available, tigers would also go after the big games.
I think the Kaziranga tiger population is likely the biggest buffalo eaters in India.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GuateGojira - 11-04-2015
(11-02-2015, 12:17 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I do remember the prey ratio for a tiger is 5:1 which means a 200 kg tiger can kill a 1000 kg buffalo as the absolute largest prey.
Do you have any scientific paper to sustain such claim?
In fact, it is now a well known fact that tigers normally kill large gaurs when they coexist. In the study at Nagarahole NP, Karanth & Sunquist (1995) fount that tigers prefer young gaur (58.8%) as they are easier and more vulnerable, but they also kill full grow adult males of up to 1,000 kg (14.6%), specially if they are alone (female gaur represent 22.6% and yearling male and female represent 2.0% respectively). The average weight of the gaur killed by tigers is of 287 kg, and 65% of the specimens hunted are in good conditions, 24% in fair and 11% in poor conditions (Karanth & Sunquist, 1995)
This type of hunts is more common in areas with higher gaur density as the tigers are able to locate them more easily. In the first years of 2000, Pench tigers do not hunted gaur because they lived at very low densities, so it was very difficult to found a gaur, but latter studies showed that when the gaur population rises, tigers predate them readily. The same happened in Nepal, where Sunquist (1981) believed that tigers do not predated on gaur because of its size, but McDougal (1977) clearly stated that the gaur population in Chitwan is very small and all of them lived in the hill areas where the tigers do not hunt, so that is why there is no gaur kills/scats in Chitwan studies.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, the principal studies that show that tigers do kill large gaurs of up to 1,000 kg are those of Dr Karanth, which have actually saw and weighed large male gaurs that had been killed by tigers ( not scavenged, actually killed by the great cat, with punctures in they necks and claw marks over all the body).
This is from the book "Mammals of South Asia" Vol. 1 (2013), in the chapter of the tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, Dr Karanth in his book " A view from the Machan" make the clear statement:
*This image is copyright of its original author
So, five times its own size, a ratio of 5.1, is 100% correct.
Data on wild water buffaloes depredation is scanty and as far I know, there are no scientific studies in the area where they coexist, ej. Kaziranga.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Pckts - 11-04-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:44 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:(11-04-2015, 10:07 PM)Pckts Wrote: Apparently, according to the study posted by @SVTIGRIS the Jaguar doesn't hunt caiman very often compared to how available they are. They were comparing prey taken between cougar and jaguar and the jaguar obviously preferred the larger prey, often taking cattle as well.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/0...s-jaguars/
For sure, given that the abundant caimans can form 30-45% of all available live biomass...they form less than that of the biomass eaten by Jaguars so yes they are not preferred, caimans still live in a different habitat and are still formidable animals with dangerous weapons.
It remains remarkable however that Jaguars have evolved to exploit this food source along side turtles and iguanas, jaguars evolved in Eurasia then crossed into the Americas , now in the neotropics where wild ungulates are scarce Jaguars supplement their diet with livestock and reptiles.
Everywhere they are sympatric, jaguars kill larger prey than pumas, the only place where this is not the case is in northern Mexico ( and possibly Arizona) there Jaguars are slightly larger than pumas ( roughly 55 kg versus 45 kg) the availability of deer tips the balance to pumas the excellent deer hunters.
But jaguars were almost hunted to extinction there, there size will go up as the prey become more available and they are protected. But that study shows that puma are more equipped to make it in our ever changing environment since they hunt smaller prey so the decreasing size of the jaguar may just be the last step before extinction in those areas unless something is done.
Probably what we are seeing with the Amur as well.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GrizzlyClaws - 11-04-2015
@GuateGojira, that makes perfect sense as the calves are likely being surrounded with a wall of protection by the herd.
And tiger didn't seem to cherry pick the female gaur over the male.
And just few calves can drag down the average of the gaur kills, and a tiger can sometimes manage to bring down a fully healthy male up to 1000 kg.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - GuateGojira - 11-04-2015
Well, in fact, jaguars at Central America has been always small. The population of Belize and Guatemala is one of the largest and is relative well protected. They do not surpass the 70 kg apparently, based in the few captured specimens and people testimonies. I personally saw one of about 90 kg, but it is a captive male and very old.
Jaguars are forced to found any prey available because they evolved to be a dominant carnivore of large preys, but now they habitat only support the tapir as a large prey and they normally live at low densities. Deer and peccaries do not surpass the 50 kg normally.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: If you want to use these numbers as 1% for tiger prey choices, you need to not include areas where guar, water buffalo, elephant and rhino do not exist.
Areas such as Bandharvgh, Bandipur, Kahna, Tadoba, Kaziranga, etc. These predations are much higher, just take a look through the tiger predation thread. You will tons of Guar predations there in the areas they exist of course. Using examples in areas where they don't exist would be incorrect for determining a predation %
But overall, of course they will hunt the easiest and most available prey to them.
Absolutely in areas where the animals do not occur, occur at a low density, or occupy different habitat it will not be worth it for a predator to search for that prey, Chitwan tigers are among the largest cats in the world yet they do not waste energy searching for the rare gaur and target the largest reasonable prey sambar, not elephants or rhinos those are obviously rarely taken.
Tiger predation on gaur is interesting in southern India and it is the only area where gaur contribute a significant amount to the biomass eaten by tiger in the Indian subcontinent ( more than 20%), Matt Hayward provides a great analysis of the feeding ecology of tigers , and even in Bandipur and Narahole Sambar is the preferred prey as it is available, relatively easily killed , and provides a decent amount of food.it is taken more than its availability, gaur is not.
The entire world population of gaur is less than 30,000 , of wild water buffalo 4,000 and of banteng is 8000 ( IUCN) compare that with 1.5-2 million Cape buffalo,it is not that tigers are not capable bovid hunters, of course they are, it is just that the most available prey to them across their range are wild boar, chital, muntjac, and sambar ...other prey are mostly localized and generally secondary.
I am sad to see a decline in the red deer population in the Russian Far East as this could further diminish the poor prey base in the area.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
In HKK reserve in Thailand ( Huai Kha Khaeng ) Smicharoen ( I hope I did not murder his name) reported tiger predation on adult gaur,water buffalo, and banteng in the park. The only place where all exist...and this is not the massive Bengal tiger this is your 110-170 kg indochinese tiger ( granted bovids there are smaller there than in India but still remarkable), still,in the same study sambar are strongly selected and muntjac despite it being avoided was taken frequently.
Tigers will obviously target calves and subadults and will kill them more than their percentage of gaur population, and will obviously kill more of the solitary old bulls than the females who live in the breeding herds despite their smaller size, this pattern is similar to lion predation on Cape buffalo.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:51 PM)Pckts Wrote:(11-04-2015, 10:44 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:(11-04-2015, 10:07 PM)Pckts Wrote: Apparently, according to the study posted by @SVTIGRIS the Jaguar doesn't hunt caiman very often compared to how available they are. They were comparing prey taken between cougar and jaguar and the jaguar obviously preferred the larger prey, often taking cattle as well.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2010/0...s-jaguars/
For sure, given that the abundant caimans can form 30-45% of all available live biomass...they form less than that of the biomass eaten by Jaguars so yes they are not preferred, caimans still live in a different habitat and are still formidable animals with dangerous weapons.
It remains remarkable however that Jaguars have evolved to exploit this food source along side turtles and iguanas, jaguars evolved in Eurasia then crossed into the Americas , now in the neotropics where wild ungulates are scarce Jaguars supplement their diet with livestock and reptiles.
Everywhere they are sympatric, jaguars kill larger prey than pumas, the only place where this is not the case is in northern Mexico ( and possibly Arizona) there Jaguars are slightly larger than pumas ( roughly 55 kg versus 45 kg) the availability of deer tips the balance to pumas the excellent deer hunters.
But jaguars were almost hunted to extinction there, there size will go up as the prey become more available and they are protected. But that study shows that puma are more equipped to make it in our ever changing environment since they hunt smaller prey so the decreasing size of the jaguar may just be the last step before extinction in those areas unless something is done.
Probably what we are seeing with the Amur as well.
It would be interesting to see...are these northern jaguars going to adapt and become deer hunters?, cattle killers?, smaller prey killers? , peccari specialists? I hope they make it and repopulate their American range.
RE: behind the big cat's and bear's, who is the top predator? - Dr Panthera - 11-04-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:51 PM)GGuateGojira Wrote:Guate do you have a link for the detailed Karanth and Sunquist study? I am interested in comparing scats data and kill data in tiger predation on gaur, as you know scat analysis overestimates small prey and kills analysis overestimates large prey, and most of what is known comes from scat analysis since observing tiger kills is difficult in most of their habitat.(11-02-2015, 12:17 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I do remember the prey ratio for a tiger is 5:1 which means a 200 kg tiger can kill a 1000 kg buffalo as the absolute largest prey.
Do you have any scientific paper to sustain such claim?
In fact, it is now a well known fact that tigers normally kill large gaurs when they coexist. In the study at Nagarahole NP, Karanth & Sunquist (1995) fount that tigers prefer young gaur (58.8%) as they are easier and more vulnerable, but they also kill full grow adult males of up to 1,000 kg (14.6%), specially if they are alone (female gaur represent 22.6% and yearling male and female represent 2.0% respectively). The average weight of the gaur killed by tigers is of 287 kg, and 65% of the specimens hunted are in good conditions, 24% in fair and 11% in poor conditions (Karanth & Sunquist, 1995)
This type of hunts is more common in areas with higher gaur density as the tigers are able to locate them more easily. In the first years of 2000, Pench tigers do not hunted gaur because they lived at very low densities, so it was very difficult to found a gaur, but latter studies showed that when the gaur population rises, tigers predate them readily. The same happened in Nepal, where Sunquist (1981) believed that tigers do not predated on gaur because of its size, but McDougal (1977) clearly stated that the gaur population in Chitwan is very small and all of them lived in the hill areas where the tigers do not hunt, so that is why there is no gaur kills/scats in Chitwan studies.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, the principal studies that show that tigers do kill large gaurs of up to 1,000 kg are those of Dr Karanth, which have actually saw and weighed large male gaurs that had been killed by tigers ( not scavenged, actually killed by the great cat, with punctures in they necks and claw marks over all the body).
This is from the book "Mammals of South Asia" Vol. 1 (2013), in the chapter of the tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Finally, Dr Karanth in his book " A view from the Machan" make the clear statement:
*This image is copyright of its original author
So, five times its own size, a ratio of 5.1, is 100% correct.
Data on wild water buffaloes depredation is scanty and as far I know, there are no scientific studies in the area where they coexist, ej. Kaziranga.