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+--- Thread: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) (/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris)
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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Roflcopters - 06-19-2015
that Rajaji male is exactly what an ultimate killing machine from the Tiger World looks like.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-19-2015
RAJAJI TIGER CLOSE-UP:
*This image is copyright of its original author
HIS PUG MARKS:
*This image is copyright of its original author
CONCLUSION:
The Rajaji tiger combines great length with muscular development and athleticism. His pug marks are very large and so is the skull. Without doubt one of the largest I saw. Probably larger than the Sauraha tiger.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-19-2015
(06-18-2015, 11:37 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Peter:
"
I was a bit harsh when I responded to your remark (sorry about that), but I don´t want to explain things you could and should have known yourself. When you have question, be a tiger. If you don´t find the answer, read, talk or ask. And don´t lecture. Ever. You do lectures and rankings at school. This is a public forum. The intention is to find answers to questions. While doing so, you develop yourself without getting ridiculed or dismissed. We help each other, but never at the expense of each other. This is the difference with other forums. Over and out. "
I never lectured anybody, sorry if it sounded like that to you. But I was simply showing the fact that tigers climb high on trees to scrape and scent mark their glands against them, the video shows you the different claw marks made by tigers the higher they go up. So while estimating a tigers body size based off claw marks, its not the most scientific means, that all Im saying. To me, this forum is for presenting different points of view in a respectful manner and using evidence to back them while trying to come to a educated conclusion until new evidence is presented, At least thats how I interpret it, and thats all I was doing. Isn't that what science is, using as much research and evidence as possible to try to come to an educated conclusion?
In regards to "stretching itself"
Yes a tiger uses a tree to stretch but it also uses it to scent mark and say "look how large I am" to intruders, that why the videos show challenging males doing so.
A tiger Pulling down or dragging down will most likely make similar marks that would be very hard to interpret otherwise, not that you can't but there is definitely a huge gap for error. Like Pugmark ID, its not a exact science which means its not a exact mean to use for measurements, hope you understand what I am saying.
You focussed on my remark on lecturing. I understand, as it was both personal and controversial. Let's forget about my remark, as I admit I was the one lecturing (...). I get to inadequate communication and apologies again.
I propose to return to the issue. Is a scratch mark on a tree a result of a tiger stretching or is a scratch mark a result of a tiger climbing a tree? I said stretching and you said a scratch mark could have been left by a tiger climbing a tree.
Let's focus on what a scratch mark is. A scratch mark is a claw mark left on a tree by a tiger. Scratch marks typically are elongated and close together, meaning the tiger had his paws close together when he made them. Standing on his hind legs, the tiger first stretches to capacity (reaching maximum height), then contracts his muscles. When contracting, he pulls his paws down with his claws extended. The downward movement results in a long and deep scratch mark, created by the claws of both paws. Scratch marks are deep at the very top (at the point where the tiger hooked in) and at the lowest point of the mark (when he unhooks). The force involved works from top to bottom, not sideways.
Does a tiger also leave a long and deep scratch mark when he climbs a tree? No.
In order to climb, a tiger jumps the tree, hooks his claws into the tree with one paw on the left side and the other on the other side (so not close together) and then pulls (using his fore-arms) and pushes (using his hind legs) himself up. He also contracts his arm, neck, shoulder and back muscles in order to keep him in the tree. Not easy when you are 200 kg.
When he goes down, the claws unhook and the tiger more or less jumps down, at times in stages. Hindfeet first. What do we see when a tiger has climbed a tree? Not much. If there is a mark, it is deep and not elongated. There often is no claw mark going down, as the tiger isn't moving down in the same way as he went up. When there are scratch marks, they are on both sides of the tree and not close together. They also are not elongated, but short and deep. A bit like spikes hammered into a tree. A large part of the force used is lateral (working from side to side).
Illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoGh1Nd86oI
If you see a scratch tree used by tigers with long and elongated scratches made by the claws of both paws close together, the tiger leaving the scratch marks was standing on his hind legs. The scratch marks were made when the tiger had first stretched himself against the tree and then contracted his muscles, pulling down his paws, with claws extended, when doing so.
Hoogerwerf (1970) saw scratch marks left by tigers in eastern Java (Udjong Kulong). The height reached ranged between 180-216 cm. Indian tigers are longer, taller and heavier than Java tigers. In a documentary about tigers in northwest India, the height of scratch marks left by tigers ranged between 221-277 cm. Some very large Indian tigers left scratch marks at a height of 10 feet and slightly over (up to 10.6). Amur tigers are a trifle longer than Indian tigers, meaning some scratch marks left by very large males could also reach 10 feet and slightly over.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 06-19-2015
"Does a tiger also leave a long and deep scratch mark when he climbs a tree? No."
We/I have no idea what a climbing scratch mark looks like compared to a non climbing one because I know that I have never seen both to compare nor read anything that states the difference.
" When he goes down, the claws unhook and the tiger more or less jumps down, at times in stages. Hindfeet first. What do we see when a tiger has climbed a tree? Not much. If there is a mark, it is deep and not elongated."
Check out the video with Bokha, he begins higher up on the tree, slides down the tree and still has his back claws stuck in the base of the tree slightly higher off the ground and is fully stretched out and scratching the tree the same way they do when they are on the base. His claws are forward facing as well, which I still have not read that is the disguinshing factor.
Have you read anything that states that they don't measure claw marks from the side as oppose to the front of the tree?
I would think that they would simply measure where the claw marks start, and a large cat dragging their claws down a tree as they repel would make deep marks I'm sure.
Tigers are actually pretty solid climbers, you can look up lots of captive tigers climbing high up poles and trees, even eating and swiping at food while high up. Even lions are pretty capable climbers as well, its really very impressive.
(nothing to do with the debate, just something I noticed when searching the topic)
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 06-20-2015
Ranjan RamchandaniSanctuary Asia Follow · June 18, 2014 ·
Ranthambore- This is Romeo again. Check out how deep he has clawed into the tree
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 06-21-2015
Greetings everyone
I have completed my table on captive Amur tiger male body mass. The following table is a sample of 37 captive Amur tigers I have collected via Personal communication or from other references. Animals that were obese (e.g. 800 lb Halloween), unreliable, or extraordinary (for example 850 lb baikal) were excluded from the list.
Enjoy
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GrizzlyClaws - 06-21-2015
(06-21-2015, 12:35 AM)'Kingtheropod' Wrote: Greetings everyone
I have completed my table on captive Amur tiger male body mass. The following table is a sample of 37 captive Amur tigers I have collected via Personal communication or from other references. Animals that were obese, unreliable, or extraordinary (for example 850 lb baikal) were excluded from the list.
Enjoy
*This image is copyright of its original author
Why the giant Baikal from the Assiniboine Park Zoo isn't included?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-21-2015
Well done, Pod. Based on what I have, heard and saw, I'd say 213,5 kg. (471 pounds) for an average captive male Amur tiger could be about right. My guess would have been between 450-500 pounds and a bit closer to 450, say 460-475 pounds. Sample size also ok.
I noticed you didn't include a few very large tigers. I can understand Baikal (no solid confirmation about his alleged size anywhere), but the tigers in the Slovak facility were large animals. Maybe Amnon is able to find out a bit more about these tigers. Same for those living in the Prague Zoo.
As to the two male Amur tigers I posted about in 2013. The one I weighed was 185,5 kg. at 194 cm. in head and body, but you have to remember this was a few weeks after seven weeks of near-starvation. In good health, he would have been 190-195 kg. (420-430 pounds). The other male was weighed at Schiphol Airport quite some years after I had measured him. Well over his prime, he wasn't 213, but 211 kg. (466 pounds).
This is one of the Amur tigers in the Slovak facility:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 06-21-2015
@peter, thank you
I will admit, I excluded a few giants. If they had been included, it would have raised the average up a bit.
I recently however found this report of a tiger from Potter Park Zoo named Ivan which died of failing health was stated to have weighed 550 lb in his prime according to his veterinarian. He died at age 20 in 2003. I've contacted them and I may add this.
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter_Park_Zoo
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=20030112&id=CF1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IgQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5623,4004874&hl=en
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-22-2015
Try to get solid info, Pod. I would suggest the vet of the zoo if possible. And if you're at it, also ask about his length. If the tiger was seen by a vet after he died, chances are it was the zoo vet. My guess is he was both weighed and measured. Also ask about the skull. Was it donated to a museum? If so, what museum? Name of the conservator? Did someone measure the skull?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-22-2015
(05-02-2015, 01:54 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:(04-19-2015, 10:23 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Just a little of theory for the discussion:
Mazák (1981) estimated that a female Sumatran tigress weight between 75 - 110 kg, but it seems that he doesn't discriminated about wild and captive animals, also he doesn't published the source of his data on body size and weights. Barlow (2009; from Slaght et al. (2005)) stated that captive Sumatran tigresses average 86.7 kg (n=21; range: 61.9 - 107.3 kg). It seems that the estimation of Mazák of c.110 kg (if its an estimation) seems somewhat correct, at least for captive specimens.
I think that maybe wild Sumatran tigresses could reach a little more, just like male Sumatran tigers do: Mazák (1981) stated a maximum of 140 for male ones, but the heaviest wild tiger from the island, captured by scientists, weighed 148.2 kg (Slamet).
Taking all these data, I can't believe a figure of 152 kg for a female one, despite its posible large size and skull dimensions. I propose to email the author(s) of the document, let's see what they say. Remember the case of the "250 kg" Suamtran tiger in an official document, that at the end, it resulted in a mistake and the figure was probably in "pounds".
Edit: I think that I have found the problem. A quick research in some books and in the Internet and I have found that the weight of 9.7 kg for a seval fits more in the range of females rater than males. Probably that is the mistake, that the tiger was a male and the serval was a female. Yes, this could be just a wild idea, but I am going to write to Dr Diogo to clarify the issue.
Did you remember the case of the 152 kg Sumatran tigress? Whell, I send an email to Dr Diogo today and he answer me right now.
Here is the answer:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Well, it seems that, in fact, it was a FEMALE!!! More incredible, there is a record of a Bengal tigress of 189 kg from Madrid, Spain.
We have now two records of exceptional captive tigresses, confirmed by scientists. [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Good day.
Edit: At petition of @sanjay, I covered the email of Dr Diogo. Greetings.
Do you remember this, Guate? I used the Sumatran tigress for my table. When reading the article and your post again, I concluded both tigresses could have been measured as well. As the Sumatran tigress was used by Diogo and his collegues, it's likely the skull was measured.
Could you contact Diogo again and ask him if both tigresses were measured and if the skull of the Sumatran tigress was measured? If not, he could be willing to ask his collegues in Vallodolid. Tell him skull and body measurements of captive tigers are few and far between.
I ask you, because you contacted him. I want to prevent confusion. Ok?
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - GuateGojira - 06-23-2015
No problem. I am going to contact him, although is wort to mention that only the Sumatran tigress was complete. The "Bengal" tigress only present the weight overall and one single leg after its death.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-23-2015
A - DIE INSELN DER TAUSEND WUNDER (T. Schilling, Paul Parey Verlag, Hamburg, no year of publication, but the original, in Dutch, was published in 1952, 240 pages)
1 - INTRODUCTION
Some weeks ago, Spalea posted an account about a sun bear and a tiger found dead somewhere in Sumatra. The bear was hugging the tiger and the tiger had his canines in the throat of the bear. They died in battle.
The story, published in a newspaper a long time ago, seems a bit weird, but it could be true. I read many books written by those who lived and hunted in Indonesia. The conclusion is both animals were seen in close proximity on estates created on Sumatra in the first decades of the last century. The reason was food. The estates were a paradise for wild boars and sun bears. As tigers were interested in wild boars, all three met at the estates every now and then.
As to the book mentioned. I first found the German translation of Schilling's book. Later, I bought the original (in Dutch). The title of the original is 'Tijgermensen van Anai' (Tiger Men of Anai). The scans below are from the German translation.
2 - ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Ton Schilling, the writer of the book, met an old man (J. G. van der L.) in a park in a large city in Holland. They talked. The old man had been in Indonesia for a long time. This was in the days it was occupied by the Dutch. Schilling noticed the old man was a walking encyclopedia. His knowledge about animals in particular was striking. It was decided to meet again. And again.
At some stage, Schilling decided to record what he heard. When he was done, he read everything to the old man. He agreed with every detail (and added a lot more every time they met) and asked to dedicate the book to his tracker and companion Hasim.
The book, therefore, isn't based on firsthand experiences. And then it was. From start to finish.
A remarkable story? Not at all. When I was young, my home town (Amsterdam) was flooded with people who had returned from Indonesia. Indonesia became independant in the early fifties of the last century and many tens of thousands had to be repatriated. I remember the big passenger ships in the harbour.
Quite many of my friends had been born and raised in Indonesia. Their parents had worked for the Dutch, building bridges, roads and villages. They had often worked in wild places and had seen things. I especially liked the grandparents. Many liked to talk about the forest and the animals. The things they told me were later confirmed by Dr. P. van Bree, who also was born and raised in Indonesia.
This is the introduction, in which Schilling explained a few things about the book. Use the transalator:
*This image is copyright of its original author
3 - SUN BEARS AND TIGERS
In Sumatra, sun bears were known as Biruangs. The old man told Schilling they were afraid of nothing. Female bears even attacked tigers when they approached their cubs and not every fight was won by the tiger.
In normal conditions, sun bears posed no danger to humans. In contrast to sloth bears, they didn't attack them on sight. Although true omnivores, coconuts in particular were much appreciated by sun bears. This was the reason they were often seen at estates.
Rough translation of the first paragraph:
" ... The bear is not a coward, ..., in courage and power he even outcompetes the tiger at times. When you meet a bear in the forest and do not act in an aggressive way, the bear will move away, not in a hurry, but with the dignity of an animal aware of his strength. When the bear, however, is in a bad mood or when you act in the wrong way, you better take care. A female Biruang will attack a tiger without hesitation when he approaches her cubs and the battle between both doesn't always end in a victory for the tiger ... ":
*This image is copyright of its original author
4 - A MALE SUN BEAR SHOT AT AN ESTATE
Sun bears, for the reason mentioned above (food), visited estates quite often. Many didn't care that much about humans. For this reason, some had to be shot. One evening, a large male who came too close for comfort was shot. They dragged him into the washing room in order to have a look at him.
A rough translation of the part in colour:
" ... It was a strong adult male, about 70 cm. at the shoulder and 150 cm. in total length. His coat was soft and shiny ... On his chest was a yellow circular spot. Hasim told me not all bears had it. The yellow spot is the reason the natives call him Biruang mata hari (sun bear). His limbs were very plump and had thick layers of muscle, the long toes were curved inward and had long claws. All in all, the bear oozed incredible power ... ":
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - Kingtheropod - 06-24-2015
(06-22-2015, 04:33 AM)'peter' Wrote: Try to get solid info, Pod. I would suggest the vet of the zoo if possible. And if you're at it, also ask about his length. If the tiger was seen by a vet after he died, chances are it was the zoo vet. My guess is he was both weighed and measured. Also ask about the skull. Was it donated to a museum? If so, what museum? Name of the conservator? Did someone measure the skull?
Hi Peter, this is the message I got from the Potter Park Zoo for Ivan the tiger. Sadly, they can't give details as they have not recorded any of their previous animals.
*This image is copyright of its original author
And this is what the veterinarian that treated Ivan back in 2003 said...
Based on this, I'm convinced that Ivan was weighed. I'll add these two tigers, one 550 lbs and 375 lbs.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 06-25-2015
If the zoo's head vet says Ivan was 550 in his prime, one has to assume the tiger was actually weighed. Good enough for the table, but a biologist seeing your table and reading the reports you posted would most probably distinguish between an assumption (the weight was quite rounded) and an established fact. He would want to know a bit more and my guess is he would like to hear it from the head vet. In writing, if possible. Maybe you can locate Sikarskie? He apparently still works at the zoo.
The other tiger has less points. What is " ... our current male tiger ... "? Amur? Sumatran? What does'" ... closer to 375 ... " mean? Was he actually weighed? By a vet? Was he adult when he was weighed? Things like that.
But you did your best to find out a few things. Effort definitely appreciated.