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+---- Thread: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines (/topic-freak-felids-a-discussion-of-history-s-largest-felines)
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 08-29-2016
New giant Cave lion skull from Romania. However, its given measurement is not really accurate.
http://www.dinolandplus.com/mammals/P108
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 08-29-2016
Does anyone remember or have on hand cave painting of the cave lion that depicted striping?
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 08-29-2016
Yeah, I do remember the cave painting that featured the striped Cave lions.
Since this group of lion is most distantly related to the modern African lion, even more than the Cromerian lion/American lion lineage.
They were also convergently evolved toward the tiger species, but they still belong to the lion lineage nevertheless.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - jacksonsmash - 08-29-2016
if the cave lion was not a sub species of lion does that mean they lived with p leo in europe side by side
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 08-29-2016
(08-29-2016, 10:18 AM)jacksonsmash Wrote: if the cave lion was not a sub species of lion does that mean they lived with p leo in europe side by side
Probably like Neanderthals and Homo sapiens.
Although the Cave lion wasn't a subspecies of the African lion like the Asiatic lion, but they still belong to the lion lineage, since the lion lineage isn't only exclusively limited to Panthera leo, but with several other lion species as well.
The Cave lion is probably the earliest offshoot of the lion family, they probably split from the African lion even earlier than the American lion, since the American lion resembles to the African lion much more than to the Cave lion.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 08-30-2016
(08-29-2016, 10:18 AM)jacksonsmash Wrote: if the cave lion was not a sub species of lion does that mean they lived with p leo in europe side by side
It is unlikely that the cave lion (P. spelaea), shared its range with the modern lion (P. leo). The modern lion (P. leo) entered Europe after the extinction of the cave lion. You can consider the product of niche. Despite P. spelaea having a good amount of size over its modern relatives, the prey species size was not different enough for P. leo to deal with the physically superior P. spelaea as competition. This is likely the same reason the tiger did not extend into the Caucuses until relatively recently.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 08-30-2016
Those non-leo lion species and non-tigris tiger species are fascinating. Hopefully there will have more uncovered fossils on these extinct felines.
The Asiatic lion and the Barbary lion straightly came from the African lion back in 100,000 years ago. I wonder if some of them managed to find a way into Europe before the extinction of the Cave lion.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 08-30-2016
@GrizzlyClaws, do you have the paper at hand for the lion subspecies dates?
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GrizzlyClaws - 08-30-2016
I don't have an elaborate scientific paper available right now, but it is the common knowledge that the Asiatic lion along with its close relative the Barbary lion evolved from a group of migrated African lion back in 100,000 years ago.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - jacksonsmash - 08-30-2016
thank you gentlemen
i really appreciate it.this website is so addictive
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - tigerluver - 09-08-2016
Regarding my earlier inquiry of the striped cave lion cave art. I asked such as the discovery of the cave lions cubs, which had no pattern. So, were the ancient people seeing the same species as the cubs?
I can't seem to find the striped lion cave painting online, which is frustrating. Does anyone have any clue where we could find it?
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - GuateGojira - 09-09-2016
(08-30-2016, 02:50 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: I don't have an elaborate scientific paper available right now, but it is the common knowledge that the Asiatic lion along with its close relative the Barbary lion evolved from a group of migrated African lion back in 100,000 years ago.
Here is the paper.
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Ngala - 11-06-2016
The Biggest Saber Cat
A fossil skull from China represents one of the largerst saber-toothed carnivores of all time
By Brian Switek on November 3, 2016
Top view of the Machairodus horribilis skull. Credit: Deng et al., 2016.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sabercat is practically synonymous with Smilodon. Fossils of the famous knife tooth have been found by the hundreds in the La Brea asphalt seeps of Los Angeles, and the South American species – Smilodon populator – was one of the largest sabertooths of all time, the largest of which were bulkier than a tiger. But as far as skulls go, at least, Smilodon can’t lay claim to the Biggest Sabercat superlative. That honor goes to a different carnivore.
Paleontologists Deng Tao, Zhijie Tseng, and colleagues set the record straight in a new paper all about a huge skull of Machairodus horribilis. The fossil, found in the roughly 8.3 million year old rock of China’s Longjiagou Basin, is a little bit crushed. Time and the caprices of geology have squished the cheeks and wide frontal bones of the skull into a much narrower profile. Reconstructed to its shape in life, however, the cream-colored cranium represents a menacingly large sabercat.
The new Machairodus horribilis skull measures over 16 inches long. That’s not only longer than all other known skulls of contemporary sabercats, but also those of the Ice Age celebrities Smilodon and Homotherium. That translates to an estimated body mass of over 892 pounds for this particular Machairodus horribilis, putting it in the same range as the burly Smilodon populator. However you care to slice it, this was one big cat.
Views of the large Machairodus horribilis skull. Credit: Deng et al., 2016.
*This image is copyright of its original author
It would be a mistake to treat Machairodus horribilis just like any other sabercat, though. While the feline shared the long, serrated fangs and other modifications seen in its relatives, for example, Deng and colleagues point out that Machairodus horribilis had a relatively small gape. The cat could only open its mouth about 70 degrees, comparable to what modern lions are capable of, rather than the ludicrous 120 degrees Smilodon could achieve. Along with differences in muscle attachments, the paleontologists write, this means that Machairodus horribilis may have targeted relatively smaller prey than later sabercats tackled.
Machairodus horribilis comes to us, then, as something that was neither like modern cats nor like later sabercats. Its thin canines would have dictated a targeted throat bite, yet the limitations of its muscles and gape likely limited the size of its preferred prey to a narrower range. To cut it short, big predators did not always pounce upon even larger prey.
Reference:
Deng, T., Zhang, Y., Tseng, Z., Hou, S. 2016. A skull of Machairodus horribilis and new evidence for gigantism as a mode of mosaic evolution in machairodonts (Felidae, Carnivora). Vertebrata PalAsiatica. 54 (4): 302-318
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Ngala - 11-06-2016
A skull of Machairodus horribilis and new evidence for gigantism as a mode of mosaic evolution in machairodonts (Felidae, Carnivora) Deng, Zhang, Tseng & Hou, 2016
*This image is copyright of its original author
Abstract:
"Sabertooth cats were extinct carnivorans that have attracted great attention and controversy because of their unique dental morphology representing an entirely extinct mode of feeding specialization. Some of them are lion-sized or tiger-sized carnivorans who are widely interpreted as hunters of larger and more powerful preys than those of their modern nonsaber-toothed relatives. We report the discovery of a large sabertooth cat skull of Machairodus horribilis from the Late Miocene of northwestern China. It shares some characteristics with derived sabertooth cats, but also is similar to extant pantherines in some cranial characters. A functional morphological analysis suggests that it differed from most other machairodont felids and had a limited gape to hunt smaller preys. Its anatomical features provide new evidence for the diversity of killing bites even within in the largest saber-toothed carnivorans and offer an additional mechanism for the mosaic evolution leading to functional and morphological diversity in sabertooth cats."
RE: Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - P.T.Sondaica - 11-15-2016
(07-17-2014, 05:44 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Robusticity through the ages of Panthera tigrisYour mean P.t Sondaica the strongest tiger in the world
I've finally an estimate of the relative robusticity of each tiger subspecies. The subspecies analyzed are all those accepted by Mazak (1981). Pictures can be deceiving, but numbers are not.
Method:
Using a similar growth chart to the one posted here (I removed one value, changing the equation. I'm keeping that to myself for now due to publishing issues), I was able to statistically determine which subspecies are proportionately heavier. The bones themselves gave no indication of what's happening, so I analyzed the predicted mass of each subspecies using Panthera tigris tigris as the basis for comparison. If the subspecies fall above the prediction, it's more robust, if below, less robust.
Results:
To keep everything short and sweet. Here are the results:Negatives means item fell below the line, positives vice versa.
Subspecies % Difference P.t. corbetti -3.5 P.t. amoyensis 12.1 P.t. virgata 4.4 P.t. altaica -14 P.t. sumatrae 4.8 P.t. sondaica 14.8 P.t. balica 9.3 P.t tigris 0
The most striking proportianately difference is shown in the island tigers. Unanimously, they are proportionately heavier than the Bengal tiger. The Amur tiger (Russian Far East tiger) was historically the lightest built subspecies, even at its greatest length (where positive allometry makes the specimens more robust). P.t. virgata is shown here to be more robust than the Amur. P.t. corbetti is a bit less robust than P.t. tigris and much less robust than the similar sized P.t. amoyensis.
Conclusions:
P.t. sumatrae, considered the hybrid product of mainland and island tiger, is in the middle ground between the island subspecies and the geographically closest mainland relative, P.t. corbetti. This could be evidence to support the hybridized subspecie theory.
P.t. altaica being so much less robust than the rest of the subspecies indicates a possible long-term environmental stressor. Lack of food and high cursoriality are possible problems, calling for a lighter built. The difference between P.t. altaica and P.t. virgata also gives some support to the old tiger taxonimic idea of these two being different subspecies, but a stress population of the same subspecies is also a legitamate argument.
P.t. tigris itself is also not too robust. It falls in line with the recently evolved mainland subspecies, essentially.
Thus, it seems, bar the primitive South chinese variety, all the modern mainland subspecies are less robust compared to the island subspecies. The more recently evovled ones, namely P.t. tigris and P.t. altaica, are especially less robust, indicating a reduction of robusticity with time.
The two most primitive, long and thin skulled subspecies, P.t. sondaica and P.t. amoyensis, are proportionately the most robust of the tigers, with P.t. sondaica being the greatest. The data shows that skull width is not correlated with the rest of the body's proportional mass. This observation also leads me to tentatively say that the Pleistocene giant tigers, P.t. acutidens and P.t. soloensis, were more robust than the Bengal tigers used to predict their masses. Application of the percent differnece of P.t. sondaica to the P.t. soloensis estimate (full dimensional) results in a mass of 500 kg. Though, I dislike applying percent differences directly due to the differences not staying consistent with allometric trends. Scaling the femur to more Javan dimensions results in a mass of 470 kg.
More to come...