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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 07-19-2021

As @Duco Ndona said.. Killing cubs doesnt necessary mean that takeover will happen, cubs get killed all the time because they cant run away, and not only by lions.. 

If some males bump into a pride with cubs or denning lioness, with no dominant males to protect them, they will kill it if they can (if lionesses cant defend them) same goes if 2 prides collide, weaker pride will get their cubs killed, because when they run away cubs fall behind..

I mean in encounter of Mhangenis and Nwaswitshakas few cubs got missing (maybe even killed) and no takeover attempt was made after..

Its the elimination of the competition, lion cubs will get killed by an "outsider" lion same as they would get killed by leopard or hyena..

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 01:48 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions will kill cubs that aren't part of their group whenever they run into them. Regardless of circumstance.
Even if this was just about land or they were just lost. They would have killed them if given the chance. 

So it doesn't really say anything about the Avoca's intentions at all.

I agree that Lions will kill cubs that aren't part of their group whenever they run into them, regardless of circumstance. But the fact that the Avocas have been trespassing into Bboys territory for months now and they are killing cubs, it's so they can bring the lionesses into estrus and father their own cubs. Their intentions are very clear, they want that territory and the prides that come with it.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:07 AM)sik94 Wrote: I agree that Lions will kill cubs that aren't part of their group whenever they run into them, regardless of circumstance. But the fact that the Avocas have been trespassing into Bboys territory for months now and they are killing cubs, it's so they can bring the lionesses into estrus and father their own cubs. Their intentions are very clear, they want that territory and the prides that come with it.

But cubs where not killed, it was false report, they dont even know that this lioness has cubs, they think she is denning and hidding cubs, but they didnt see the cubs yet.. 

Even if they where, denning lionesses are very vulneable if they got exposed or found by other lions, she is alone..

Agree, fact is that Avocas are pushing south, but still, i didn't see them challenge Bboys directly, i think they are trying to intimidate them with slow pushing and roaring..

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:12 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 02:07 AM)sik94 Wrote: I agree that Lions will kill cubs that aren't part of their group whenever they run into them, regardless of circumstance. But the fact that the Avocas have been trespassing into Bboys territory for months now and they are killing cubs, it's so they can bring the lionesses into estrus and father their own cubs. Their intentions are very clear, they want that territory and the prides that come with it.

But cubs where not killed, it was false report, they dont even know that this lioness has cubs, they think she is denning and hidding cubs, but they didnt see the cubs yet.. 

Even if they where, denning lionesses are very vulneable if they got exposed or found by other lions, she is alone..

"Even if they where, denning lionesses are very vulneable if they got exposed or found by other lions, she is alone.." if intruding males are chasing the dominant males off mating opportunities or can kill cubs deep in enemy territory, that's a challenge if I have ever seen one.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:17 AM)sik94 Wrote: [quote pid='148947' dateline='1626642739']
"Even if they where, denning lionesses are very vulneable if they got exposed or found by other lions, she is alone.." if intruding males are chasing the dominant males off mating opportunities or can kill cubs deep in enemy territory, that's a challenge if I have ever seen one.

[/quote]

And still, Bboys are chilling with a pride in Londolozi just few days ago, no concerned at all, such a strong challenge by Avocas.. 

As I said, yes, Avocas are pushing south, and are interested into Bboys territory, but they still didn't openly challenge them.

Bboys are seen with both gruops of Kambulas, and still very much in control of them, they cant follow and protect every female who vanders around or is denning.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:26 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 02:17 AM)sik94 Wrote: [quote pid='148947' dateline='1626642739']
"Even if they where, denning lionesses are very vulneable if they got exposed or found by other lions, she is alone.." if intruding males are chasing the dominant males off mating opportunities or can kill cubs deep in enemy territory, that's a challenge if I have ever seen one.

And still, Bboys are chilling with a pride in Londolozi just few days ago, no concerned at all, such a strong challenge by Avocas.. 

As I said, yes, Avocas are pushing south, and are interested into Bboys territory, but they still didn't openly challenge them.

Bboys are seen with both gruops of Kambulas, and still very much in control of them, they cant follow and protect every female who vanders around or is denning.
[/quote]
Bboys aren't taking up the challenge, they aren't going to take up the challenge until the Avocas show up right at their door. They are chilling with the pride right now but soon they won't be if they don't give a response.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:35 AM)sik94 Wrote: Bboys aren't taking up the challenge, they aren't going to take up the challenge until the Avocas show up right at their door. They are chilling with the pride right now but soon they won't be if they don't give a response

Definitely looking like they are challenged, yesterday
on Worldreacher instagram story at MalaMala :


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


They are really hidding from Avocas, taking cover with that big grass behind, because apperantly by you they are avoiding challenge.. 

They wouldn't be here with their prides if they are "avoiding" challenge, they would run away lol..

As I said, Avocas still didn't seriously challenge them..they might, and prob will, but they still didn't..

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 07-19-2021

To be honest..I think the whole cubkilling to get lionesses into estrus is just a myth anyway.
Its not like the lions themselves are aware of that connection and I dont see how they can learn that connection. 

As for what the Birmingham males are doing. Its a very drawn out conflict and the Avocas for some reason didnt feel the need to actively seek them out to attack them.
So if they dont feel confident in attacking them themselves. They probably dont want to flee prematurely while they can still spend some months with the pride.

Id not be suprised if this turns into a soft take over. Where the lionesses without cubs pick their side until eventually most of the pride defects. Have the Birminghams been seen mating lately?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:43 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 02:35 AM)sik94 Wrote: Bboys aren't taking up the challenge, they aren't going to take up the challenge until the Avocas show up right at their door. They are chilling with the pride right now but soon they won't be if they don't give a response

Definitely looking like they are challenged, yesterday
on Worldreacher instagram story at MalaMala :


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


They are really hidding from Avocas, taking cover with that big grass behind, because apperantly by you they are avoiding challenge.. 

They wouldn't be here with their prides if they are "avoiding" challenge, they would run away lol..

As I said, Avocas still didn't seriously challenge them..they might, and prob will, but they still didn't..
If they weren't avoiding conflict they would chase the Avocas back north. All I'm saying is I don't see the Bboys defending their territory a whole lot, and that's understandable cuz they aren't young lions anymore. The only thing the Avocas haven't done is show up at the dinner table and directly go for the pride at this point.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sik94 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 02:43 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: They wouldn't be here with their prides if they are "avoiding" challenge, they would run away lol..
Avoiding a fight till it comes to your front door or running away to completely vacate their territory are two very different things.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tonpa - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 03:34 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: To be honest..I think the whole cubkilling to get lionesses into estrus is just a myth anyway.
Its not like the lions themselves are aware of that connection and I dont see how they can learn that connection. 

Well, instinctual behaviors should have a purpose/benefit, otherwise there's no reason for them to be passed on genetically

What other reason would there be for male lions to kill cubs they haven't sired?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Duco Ndona - 07-19-2021

We also see plenty of cub adoptions by male lions and sometimes it can take a few days for a male lion to decide to off them. So its probably more a decicion than a instinct.

But the reason is probably just that he hasnt got much of a reason to accept them. They are annoying, take up valuable time and resources, a source of conflict and ultimately not part of his group.
Unlike the lionesses, which are only welcome becouse they bring food and mating.

Its not to different from humans. Which care for children also drops off sharply when there is no connection with the child.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Thierry - 07-19-2021

(06-11-2021, 03:26 AM)Potato Wrote:
(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Time will tell. Nature doesn'tesnt play by the books
It does. It is not a first lion warfare we get to see and by looking at similar cases from the past we can judge what to expect in this confrontation as well.

(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: If they catch him alone in the right circumstances they could easily decide to take him out.
Of course, but it is easier said than done.

(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Being in a coalition is pointless if you split up
Yes, but it seems Avocas actually stick with each other more often than the Birminghams. It is not like Mohawk is on his own wandering through Birminghams territory whle Birminghams stick together just waiting for opporturnity of catching lone Avoca male. If you check Mala Mala raports for then past couple of months then you will find there than actually Birminghams are much more often seen separately than together even through then both move with just one pride which is strange and is very bad sign for their chances of defending territory.

(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: And the Birminghams clearly have enough fight in them to take out intruders.
Birminghams are not done yet althrough they are not doing great in defending their territory for the past months at all. Perhaps they will yet pull through their confrontation with Avocas, but so far it isn't going their way.

(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Though most likely the Avocas will just run. There isnt enough at stake to fight over. Why get yourself killed over what you already have at home.

It is not uncommon for the male lions to take the risk in order to gain more females to mate with. Also it seems Avocas are willling to take such risk or else they still would be moving safly with Nkuchumas around Djuma insteed of pushing for the takeover of Birrmingham males territory.

(07-19-2021, 04:39 AM)Tonpa Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 03:34 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: To be honest..I think the whole cubkilling to get lionesses into estrus is just a myth anyway.
Its not like the lions themselves are aware of that connection and I dont see how they can learn that connection. 

Well, instinctual behaviors should have a purpose/benefit, otherwise there's no reason for them to be passed on genetically

What other reason would there be for male lions to kill cubs they haven't sired?

There is most likely an instinctive need for lions to kill lion cubs, of which they are not the parents, in the overwhelming majority of cases, but we can only speculate on their level of consciousness from this point of view.

If we can note that the relations of cause and effect and of final benefit have an importance in the instinctive behaviors of the animals, in their evolution and their transmission, this does not allow us to conclude from it, , nor to exclude, however, that, for the lions, this resulted in going beyond the instinctive stage.

.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 07-19-2021

(07-19-2021, 04:11 AM)sik94 Wrote: If they weren't avoiding conflict they would chase the Avocas back north. All I'm saying is I don't see the Bboys defending their territory a whole lot, and that's understandable cuz they aren't young lions anymore. The only thing the Avocas haven't done is show up at the dinner table and directly go for the pride at this point

They did chase them north, atleast once by reports and prob few times more that we dont know, even Tinyo had "scrap" with them.. 

They chased OM numerous times back into Singita and he keep returning back..

Do you think 1 chase will stop Avocas from returning? No, just like didn't with OM..but when OM got too deep and went for their pride, we know what happened.. 

They will react when they directly challenge them and go for their pride..

This slow push by Avocas and taking territory prob doesnt concern them right now, they can just leave that area and move further south or now vacant west, plenty of empty area around them, its not like they are cornered and need to fight with Avocas for every inch of their territory, lions territory changes daily anyways..

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - lionuk - 07-19-2021

That pride is doing wonderfully.