(12-02-2015, 12:32 AM)Pckts Wrote: I'd be curious about The


Karanth et al. 2005,

the Schaller 1967,

Johnsing 1983 and 1992 and

McDougal (1977); Eisenberg
& Seidensticker (1976)

Dhungal & O'gara 1991

Seidensticker & McDougal 1993

Since those are the ones with Guar population and any others I may have missed. I'd like to compare those particular findings to see if there is any relevance to age and sex of the Tiger to Guar preference or any other larger prey selections.
I guess I'm starting to focus more on Guar predation in particular than all predation, which I know isn't the key to conservation, but the relationship between the 2 interests me the same as the relationship between cape and lion.

I'd love to know of any studies on Water buffalo from the Kaziranga area but I have seen no studies on them or their cohabitation.

(12-08-2015, 01:43 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: Gaurs are locally extinct in Kaziranga, I found no evidence to suggest otherwise.

(12-02-2015, 12:20 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: Guate:
In studies based on kills, the observed carcasses can give an idea on the age and sex of prey and its approximate weight , this is most seen with studies of open habitats/woodlands for lions and cheetahs and less so for other cats.
As you know the study of a dense forest, nocturnal, illusive, solitary predator like the tiger will make the number of observed kills small to draw conclusions ( or you need very long studies) so scat analysis is the way, and since this does not determine the age,sex,and state of the prey so three quarter of the average female weight is used therefore:
60 kg can be 3/4 of the weight of female wild boar in South Asia or Sika deer doe in the Amur region.
260 kg..this is baffling because this is approximately the size of a fine Sambar stag or a red deer stag ( 3/4 of the female weight is significantly less)... if we attribute this number to gaur and banteng it is less than 3/4 of the weight of the female, perhaps they averaged the known kills in different age classes from both sexes and came to that number, yet he clearly uses 650 kg for gaur which is the size of a large cow or a small bull, I can not really say for sure how .

(12-09-2015, 11:36 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:

(12-08-2015, 01:43 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: Gaurs are locally extinct in Kaziranga, I found no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Yes, we were talking about wild water buffalo Bubalis bubalis and not gaur.

Quote:Respectfully : Nagarahole,Bandipur,Bardia, Huai Kha Khaeng, and Way Kambas all have resident elephant populations , Chitwan get transient ones from India across the border (mainly males) so six areas of overlap. There is a good amount of tiger research in areas where gaur exists ( e.g. Bandipur, Nagarhole, Kahna, Chitwan, and HKK from the mentioned areas and also in Manas, Kaziranga, and Malaysia among others.

Gaur is represented in 15 studies out of the 25 I mentioned with contribution to tiger diet ranging from 0 to roughly 40%.

(12-02-2015, 10:18 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: Schaller reported that the majority of gaur kills he observed in Kanha in 1965 were calves younger than 6 months.
All the scientists in the Chitwan Smithsonian tiger project studies in the 70's and 80's ( Sunquist, Seidensticker, Tamang, Smith, McDougal ) mentioned that predation on gaur was minimal due to difference in habitat and low rates of encounter.
Only Karanth and Sunquist provided more details on predation on adult gaur in Nagarahole of 69 kills they observed 14.6% were adult males, 22.6% adult females, 4% subadults, and 58% calves.
Johnsingh and Sankhala mentioned that tiger predation on gaur in Bandipur increased after the hoof and mouth epidemic in the early 90's, most victims were calves but some adults were taken as well.
I don't think we can compare this predation to the lion predation on cape buffalo, buffalo comprises 35% of the ungulate biomass in Africa second only to elephants, they number in the millions, and co-evolved with lions to be a major prey item all over Africa...lions were forced to learn to hunt buffalo and that is in part a reason for forming prides. Tigers were recent arrivals to Southern Asia and started to exploit bovids as prey more recently, and the entire gaur/banteng/water buffalo population is less than 40,000. Interestingly tigers from the Western Forest Complex in Thailand seem to be accomplished bovid predators and take adults of these three bovids ( and that is the only place they all still exist)...this is very impressive considering that the tigers there are smaller than their Bengal brothers ( a young collard male weighed only 350 LBS, captive males around 170 kg).
Tigers were recent arrivals to South Asia

(12-13-2015, 12:30 PM)Shardul Wrote:

(12-02-2015, 10:18 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: Schaller reported that the majority of gaur kills he observed in Kanha in 1965 were calves younger than 6 months.
All the scientists in the Chitwan Smithsonian tiger project studies in the 70's and 80's ( Sunquist, Seidensticker, Tamang, Smith, McDougal ) mentioned that predation on gaur was minimal due to difference in habitat and low rates of encounter.
Only Karanth and Sunquist provided more details on predation on adult gaur in Nagarahole of 69 kills they observed 14.6% were adult males, 22.6% adult females, 4% subadults, and 58% calves.
Johnsingh and Sankhala mentioned that tiger predation on gaur in Bandipur increased after the hoof and mouth epidemic in the early 90's, most victims were calves but some adults were taken as well.
I don't think we can compare this predation to the lion predation on cape buffalo, buffalo comprises 35% of the ungulate biomass in Africa second only to elephants, they number in the millions, and co-evolved with lions to be a major prey item all over Africa...lions were forced to learn to hunt buffalo and that is in part a reason for forming prides. Tigers were recent arrivals to Southern Asia and started to exploit bovids as prey more recently, and the entire gaur/banteng/water buffalo population is less than 40,000. Interestingly tigers from the Western Forest Complex in Thailand seem to be accomplished bovid predators and take adults of these three bovids ( and that is the only place they all still exist)...this is very impressive considering that the tigers there are smaller than their Bengal brothers ( a young collard male weighed only 350 LBS, captive males around 170 kg).
Tigers were recent arrivals to South Asia

If that is the case (tigers in India not being accomplished bovid predators), then why do tigers all over India repeatedly choose to hunt domestic cattle(adults, often large bulls) over Sambars and Chitals, whenever given an opportunity? Some domestic cattle breeds in India are very large, close to Gaurs in size, and yet tigers in Bandhavgarh for eg, repeatedly venture out of the forest just to prey on them, ignoring the plentiful deer in the forest.

(12-12-2015, 05:26 AM)Roflcopters Wrote:

(12-09-2015, 11:36 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:

(12-08-2015, 01:43 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: Gaurs are locally extinct in Kaziranga, I found no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Yes, we were talking about wild water buffalo Bubalis bubalis and not gaur.

post #606 by you.

Quote:Respectfully : Nagarahole,Bandipur,Bardia, Huai Kha Khaeng, and Way Kambas all have resident elephant populations , Chitwan get transient ones from India across the border (mainly males) so six areas of overlap. There is a good amount of tiger research in areas where gaur exists ( e.g. Bandipur, Nagarhole, Kahna, Chitwan, and HKK from the mentioned areas and also in Manas, Kaziranga, and Malaysia among others.

Gaur is represented in 15 studies out of the 25 I mentioned with contribution to tiger diet ranging from 0 to roughly 40%.

I was just correcting that and you're welcome. 

(12-09-2015, 11:42 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(12-02-2015, 12:20 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: Guate:
In studies based on kills, the observed carcasses can give an idea on the age and sex of prey and its approximate weight , this is most seen with studies of open habitats/woodlands for lions and cheetahs and less so for other cats.
As you know the study of a dense forest, nocturnal, illusive, solitary predator like the tiger will make the number of observed kills small to draw conclusions ( or you need very long studies) so scat analysis is the way, and since this does not determine the age,sex,and state of the prey so three quarter of the average female weight is used therefore:
60 kg can be 3/4 of the weight of female wild boar in South Asia or Sika deer doe in the Amur region.
260 kg..this is baffling because this is approximately the size of a fine Sambar stag or a red deer stag ( 3/4 of the female weight is significantly less)... if we attribute this number to gaur and banteng it is less than 3/4 of the weight of the female, perhaps they averaged the known kills in different age classes from both sexes and came to that number, yet he clearly uses 650 kg for gaur which is the size of a large cow or a small bull, I can not really say for sure how .

More to come on this, I am going to explain why the range of 60-250 kg is wrong, and believe me, it is easier that what I previously believed.

By the way, why in the figure 3 of Haywar et al. (2012) the graphic of the gaur ("gaur deer" (sic!) in the document) is incomplete? Can you explain me this @Dr Panthera?