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Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Printable Version

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RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 12:12 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-12-2022, 10:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Even with his new measurement, the Jaguar posted by guate would still be longer most likely. *if measured in the same way* Since we can assume that not only did Jokers body possibly grow but his tail would as well. Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.

Balam had shared with me this table made comparing the measurements of Joker and Adriano to the lions and leopard in this other chart and the body lenght of Joker is estimated assuming his tail lenght remained constant from his first to second captures

*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author

I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 12:22 AM)Pckts Wrote: I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.
Joker was measured over curves in his first capture but the method used in his second one was not specified. Lilian told me that they made changes in regards to the people allowed to take measurements to allow only the most experienced to take them. Joker having a very similar BL to the lioness makes complete sense given the similar weight, and the lions are not specified as being taken between pegs either. Joker may have in fact been heavier than the lioness in the absolutes.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 01:06 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
(02-13-2022, 12:22 AM)Pckts Wrote: I’m assuming Adriano was measured in a straight line since Crawshaw was there as well, so that needs to be noted since Joker was over the curves. Should also be specified in regards to the lions for comparison.
Also she kept the tail length the same and just increased the body length which may or may not be the case.
Joker was measured over curves in his first capture but the method used in his second one was not specified. Lilian told me that they made changes in regards to the people allowed to take measurements to allow only the most experienced to take them. Joker having a very similar BL to the lioness makes complete sense given the similar weight, and the lions are not specified as being taken between pegs either. Joker may have in fact been heavier than the lioness in the absolutes.

He was 100% measured over the curves both times and Lillian was there for both captures as well. 

In regards to the Lions, they’re not specified for any protocol but you’d need to know which one was used to accurately compare. Generally speaking, female  Lions/Tigers will still be larger in frame but Jaguars dense bodies allows them attain equal weights at times.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 12:12 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

This table is from the ALPRU protocol document. They are "over the curves", from the frontal teeth (not the nose) to the tip of the tail, following all the curves of the back.

In straight line, these animals should be shorter by a significative margin, even if compared with other cats measured over curves, that take the nose as initial point of measurement.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - GuateGojira - 02-13-2022

(02-12-2022, 10:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Regardless I think it’s safe to say that Guates jag was also taken over the curves.

Is possible, as there is no indication about the measurement method, only that was in the flesh. Sadly there are no more details about the specimen.

I have no data about the difference between the "straight line" and "over curves!" in jaguars, but if we follow the data from Indian leopards (between 8 - 12 cm), the big jaguar reported by Nelson and Goldman probably measured as large as the largest jaguar reported by De Almeida.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 01:23 AM)Pckts Wrote: Generally speaking, female  Lions/Tigers will still be larger in frame but Jaguars dense bodies allows them attain equal weights at times.Reply
Makes total sense, they don't need frames as large as lionesses/tigresses to equal them in body weight, everything they need lies in the density of their bones and bodies. 
Jaguars' bauplan is on a bulkness and robustness level that gives us no wonders why pound for pound they're unmatchable by any living felid in terms of robusity.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 02-13-2022

It's also to note that Lilian said nothing about the protocol on the server and capture. 

And not all Jaguars are short framed, Joker may not be as tall but be can be very long in the body just like a lioness of similar body. 

Like @GuateGojira said, the lions were taken over curves in an even more dramatic matter so the comparison is perfectly reasonable assuming Joker was also taken over curves on his second capture. With Adriano being the only cat in the chart likely taken between pegs, thus undersizing him in comparison.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-13-2022

(02-13-2022, 05:22 AM)LoveAnimals Wrote: It's also to note that Lilian said nothing about the protocol on the server and capture. 

And not all Jaguars are short framed, Joker may not be as tall but be can be very long in the body just like a lioness of similar body. 

Like @GuateGojira said, the lions were taken over curves in an even more dramatic matter so the comparison is perfectly reasonable assuming Joker was also taken over curves on his second capture. With Adriano being the only cat in the chart likely taken between pegs, thus undersizing him in comparison.
Edu was also there for the first capture and specifically mentions over the curves.
He was also the one that got us all of Jokers specific measurements and the protocol they use.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-15-2022

* Nelson & Goldman (1933):

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* Pocock (1939):

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*This image is copyright of its original author

 Seymour (1989):

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Credit to GG for the original Post.


I'm going to compare the largest skull shown which is a Chaco Male to an Almeida Skull which will give us an idea of it's size. 

Chaco Male had a skull length of 11.96 inches x 8.38'' which is a total score of 20.34'' 

a comparable skull from Almeida would be either Thornton Snider's male that had a total score of 20.31'' and a weight of 101kg's or Dave Lauzen's who had a total score of 20.37'' and a weight of 112kg.

Safe to assume the Chaco Male was a big Jag, comparable to the Pantanal Jaguars.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 02-15-2022

It doesn't surprise me the Chaco jaguar matching the Pantanal skull, its just like the Cerrado jags, they overlap with the Pantanal and Porto Primavera ones not only in weight and dimensions but also they are very similar in size to those from Chaco. My guess is also the overlapping absolutely occurs on the skull department, if only we had measurements of Cerrado specimens. but we already have a small taste of it.

Left: Adult Pantanal male jag skull

Right: Adult Cerrado male Jag skull (Tiago male)

As you all know both were killed in territorial intraespecific fight to death. That Cerrado jag skull is huge, in 2020 Pckts made an estimation on the skull size and the result was really of a big specimen (as Tiago really is).


*This image is copyright of its original author




Regarding Adriano's measure I just rechecked my email again from back then (when I got Adriano's measurements with Dr. Fernando Tortato) as you all already know he said to me ''We usually use a malleable measuring tape that involves the animal's body''. BUT there's something else he said in the end that I didn't pay attention back then (too excited focused on Adriano's size lol) in addition he said ''I don't remember exactly which tape we used in 2012 to capture Teo.''  

As you can see bellow not only can we see which measuring tape was used but it was on the hands of the master Dr. Crawshaw. Obviously this could mean anything but there is good chances of Adriano/Teo/M11 have been measured the correct way.


*This image is copyright of its original author


During my conversations with Dr. Peter Crawshaw on a topic about girth dimensions (as Head Girth is my favorite measurement) I even mentioned to him there was a male jaguar named Adriano of 130 kg that was 85 cm tall and big head circumference captured by Fernando Tortato  and was measured over the curves (due to the melleable tape Panthera usually use). But the thing is, Panthera team calls Adriano as both ''M11 and Teo''. Rafael Hoogesteijn in our conversation also referred that jaguar to me as ''Tel''. Back then I didn't know Dr. Crawshaw was involved in Adriano (Tel, M11) capture. what a coincidence, If I used the name ''Teo or M11'' instead of ''Adriano'' while talking to Dr. Crawshaw I could've gotten more detailed information, if only I knew it in time, sadly.

RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 02-20-2022

Edu.Fragoso
In the wild, males are usually larger than females. Of the jaguars monitored by @oncafari at @caimanpantanal, males are about 37% heavier than females, weighing over 140 kg. Tupã (photo), despite appearing to be a giant guy (and in fact he is), is comparatively "small", weighing 108 kg.


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 03-10-2022

103kg Male

*This image is copyright of its original author


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 03-10-2022

(03-10-2022, 05:45 PM)Pckts Wrote: 103kg Male
Another picture of the same male
*This image is copyright of its original author


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 03-11-2022

(07-11-2020, 06:59 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: 100kg Cerrado male from PN GSV.  

http://mosaicosvp.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/jornal-do-mosaico-06.pdf


*This image is copyright of its original author


He's the first Cerrado jaguar from Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas that I see captured.

He was named Leão ( Lion in portuguese ).

''For the capture of the jaguar, in the Grande Sertão Veredas in August 2010, we followed its tracks, installed the camera and identified exactly the animal we wanted to capture. We called this cerrado jaguar Leão (Lion) because it has very large pugmarks, he is very big and weighs about 100 kilograms.  For a cerrado jaguar it is a very large weight if compared to the jaguars in the Pantanal that weigh up to 140 kg.''


*This image is copyright of its original author




@"OncaAtrox"  Finally one Cerrado jaguar to the table after a while.


ID            Weight       Source                 Area                 Age            Capture Year
Leão        100kg        Biotrópicos        PN GSV              Adult              2010


Another angle of the 100 kg male Jaguar from Cerrado named Leão (Lion).

Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas - Brazil


This is the only Cerrado Jaguar I know the weight from the area of Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas, its a very well preserved area of Cerrado.

100 kg Leão Cerrado male.

credits: Edsel Amorim

*This image is copyright of its original author




His other photos we already have just as a reminder on who he is.


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The Institute Biotrópicos also captured a female Cerrado Jaguar named Tainá from the same area but her weight wasn't revealed.


Tainá Cerrado female


*This image is copyright of its original author


RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - AndresVida - 04-09-2022

Hi @Dark Jaguar I noticed this comment on Carnivora accusing you and the other people involved in the collection of the data of weights for Pantanal jaguars of supposedly lying.

 I know the tables are reliable and complete but I think it's fair for you to at least have a say against this accusations since it's unfair for others to spread lies about your tables in forums where you aren't active. 

I believe @peter was happy with the tables since this was a project started here at Wildfact. 

Here is the post in question https://carnivora.net/leopard-v-jaguaress-t3438-s540.html#p214159 let me know what you think