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+----- Thread: Notch Coalition Male Lineage (/topic-notch-coalition-male-lineage)
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pantherinae - 04-17-2015
Yeah sanjay watching big cat diary from masai mara when i was young! I have never seen lions in the mara as big and powerful buildt as now! Sons of notch are big! And thats probably because they have learned to tackle big prey like eland, buffalo and hippo!
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - sanjay - 04-21-2015
*This image is copyright of its original author
Credit to wildlife photographer Grant Atkinson
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pckts - 04-21-2015
(04-17-2015, 09:34 AM)'sanjay' Wrote: Thank you @Pantherinae , I am also getting feeling these boys are exceptional. Huge in size.
Like tigers I guess modern Lions are also getting bigger by size and weight.
For me, I would have to see way more verified weights before I jump to conclusion on either species. Anjan just said that lions he has seen including Ngorongo Crater Lions all seem to be the same size in africa.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - sanjay - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote: For me, I would have to see way more verified weights before I jump to conclusion on either species. Anjan just said that lions he has seen including Ngorongo Crater Lions all seem to be the same size in africa.And what your thought about tigers ?
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pckts - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 10:05 PM)'sanjay' Wrote:(04-21-2015, 09:31 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: For me, I would have to see way more verified weights before I jump to conclusion on either species. Anjan just said that lions he has seen including Ngorongo Crater Lions all seem to be the same size in africa.And what your thought about tigers ?
Same, tbh I see no reason why either cat would be larger today compared to years past.
If looking at it from a realistic stand point, all factors that would allow cats to be larger are not in their advantage. Prey availability, space, genetic variances allowed by open corridors and large gene pools.
We have almost nothing to go off of for verified tiger and lion weights available to the public in modern days. We go off of images and eye witness accounts, so until we could have access to 100s of verified weights from past till present I don't see any chance of proving the theory of cats being larger or smaller than years past. And even the weights we use from years past are usually from hunters who's equipment or methods are all slightly different in some way, usually.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Amnon242 - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 10:27 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Same, tbh I see no reason why either cat would be larger today compared to years past.
If looking at it from a realistic stand point, all factors that would allow cats to be larger are not in their advantage. Prey availability, space, genetic variances allowed by open corridors and large gene pools.
We have almost nothing to go off of for verified tiger and lion weights available to the public in modern days. We go off of images and eye witness accounts, so until we could have access to 100s of verified weights from past till present I don't see any chance of proving the theory of cats being larger or smaller than years past. And even the weights we use from years past are usually from hunters who's equipment or methods are all slightly different in some way, usually.
But modern progressive generation of lions have learned to tackle big prey like eland, buffalo and hippo. Their ancestors didnt know how to hunt them.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pckts - 04-22-2015
(04-21-2015, 11:23 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote:(04-21-2015, 10:27 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Same, tbh I see no reason why either cat would be larger today compared to years past.
If looking at it from a realistic stand point, all factors that would allow cats to be larger are not in their advantage. Prey availability, space, genetic variances allowed by open corridors and large gene pools.
We have almost nothing to go off of for verified tiger and lion weights available to the public in modern days. We go off of images and eye witness accounts, so until we could have access to 100s of verified weights from past till present I don't see any chance of proving the theory of cats being larger or smaller than years past. And even the weights we use from years past are usually from hunters who's equipment or methods are all slightly different in some way, usually.
But modern progressive generation of lions have learned to tackle big prey like eland, buffalo and hippo. Their ancestors didnt know how to hunt them.
I highly doubt that, there is nothing that would point to that. There are predation on large prey and predators dating back for as long as humans have recorded it.
Heck, there are claw marks and deaths attributed to Mammoth and Bison from " very large cats ". "Blue Babe" for one
https://books.google.com/books?id=csJlqn4BokIC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=wooly+mammoth+found+with+claw+marks&source=bl&ots=Sex9huTTFz&sig=2mE5tfNVoN5H5yv0AqGsVvu-yc0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O7I2VZG9NZSzoQTDloCADA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=wooly%20mammoth%20found%20with%20claw%20marks&f=false
Even Schaller noticed this in the 60s and 70s. The access to wild life has just recently been allowed to the general public and video and photograph have just recently been mobilized and allowed us to shoot this up close and often.
What really dictates Lion predation is availability of prey, that's why most switch prey choices depending on what herds are migrating through their territory. The new climate change that's occurring may be a true deal changer.
And lets take a step further,
is there any scientific proof that hunting larger prey leads to larger lions? Lions need more members to hunt larger prey and that means food needs to be distributed to more mouths. We would have to look from location to location, note prey taken and time of the year they were weighed, then compare them from all over. Since lions generally show very little difference in weight from location to location, its most likely not going to have a large factor on size of the cat.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pantherinae - 04-22-2015
Notch boys did learn to kill hippos and The other prey was eland and buffalo when they left The pride with Notch, they turend out to be The biggest males in The mara, their sons learned it even erlier and is said to be even larger than their fathers when at The same age, so it could make sence since The other lion populations is said to be The crater and okavango Lions who almost just eat buffalo!
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pckts - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 02:49 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: Notch boys did learn to kill hippos and The other prey was eland and buffalo when they left The pride with Notch, they turend out to be The biggest males in The mara, their sons learned it even erlier and is said to be even larger than their fathers when at The same age, so it could make sence since The other lion populations is said to be The crater and okavango Lions who almost just eat buffalo!
So I spoke with Anjan Lal about Ngorongo Lions since he was just there and photographed many of them.
Here is what was said
"Me: I noticed that you recently went and saw lions in the Crater at Ngorongo. I was wondering if you noticed a difference in size between them and lions from the Serengeti? Thanks for your time. 20 hours ago
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original authorNo the lions are the sameIn Africa their size is the same *This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original authorBut the ones found in India are different in size *This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original authorAsiatic lions are a bit smaller and the males have a smaller and darker mane in comparison to their African cousinsMe: Thanks for the info Anjan. That's what I thought as well. Out of curiosity, where are the largest tigers you have seen?
In India
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original authorAt Tafoba *This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original authorYou can google WagdohHe's the biggest tiger right now in central India
Me
h yes, I know waghdoh well. He's a monsterMe:If you ever go to kaziranga or corbett will you let me know what you think of their size? Heard they are absolutely massive
Ok sure
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author Thanks for asking"That is what Anjan said about lions and Crater lions in particular ^^^^ He was just there as well.
Lions have been recorded hunting Elephant, Eland, Buffalo, Hippo, Rhino, etc. Through out history, in fact, the prey they hunt is specifically determined by the migratory patterns and time of year of the prey, the pride size and climate.
Ngorongo Lions are Serengetti Lions and they hunt buffalo yes, but they hunt Zebra, impala and wildabeast far more often.
I already posted the prey preference by Packer on the Ngorongo Thread, feel free to take a look.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - sanjay - 04-22-2015
Well, I got some information from the facebook page Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons .
I asked for some weight and body dimension measurement and I got the following figures for the notches
Quote:They are quite large males ,you are looking at around 230kg - 255kg when they have eaten.
Around 9ft long and 4.5 tall.
230 kg without a meal.
Around 240 in migration period due to lots of food, then 260 after eating
I have also asked for the source of this information and waiting for the answer. The page owner of the Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons, Is very mature and seems to be very knowledgeable person.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Pckts - 04-22-2015
(04-22-2015, 10:39 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Well, I got some information from the facebook page Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons .
I asked for some weight and body dimension measurement and I got the following figures for the notches
Quote:They are quite large males ,you are looking at around 230kg - 255kg when they have eaten.
Around 9ft long and 4.5 tall.
230 kg without a meal.
Around 240 in migration period due to lots of food, then 260 after eating
I have also asked for the source of this information and waiting for the answer. The page owner of the Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons, Is very mature and seems to be very knowledgeable person.
But this is just estimates, obviously the weight and shoulder height are a bit exaggerated I think. None of the Cats have been weighed or measured, to my knowledge at least.
My suggestion is to speak with the actual photographers who take the pictures, their names should be attached to the images. Like the Kahna Tigers FB page, most of the time these are admin by people like you and me who generally don't have first hand experience with these cats and who are fans. I like to ask how they compare via eye to eye comparisons since weight is so subjective from person to person.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - GuateGojira - 04-23-2015
(04-22-2015, 10:39 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Well, I got some information from the facebook page Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons .A shoulder height of 4.5 ft (137 cm)????????
I asked for some weight and body dimension measurement and I got the following figures for the notches
Quote:They are quite large males ,you are looking at around 230kg - 255kg when they have eaten.
Around 9ft long and 4.5 tall.
230 kg without a meal.
Around 240 in migration period due to lots of food, then 260 after eating
I have also asked for the source of this information and waiting for the answer. The page owner of the Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons, Is very mature and seems to be very knowledgeable person.
Jajajajaja, not even the giant Panthera atrox or the Ngandong tiger were so tall at the shoulders!!! [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Amnon242 - 04-23-2015
(04-22-2015, 01:28 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:(04-21-2015, 11:23 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote: But modern progressive generation of lions have learned to tackle big prey like eland, buffalo and hippo. Their ancestors didnt know how to hunt them.
I highly doubt that, there is nothing that would point to that. There are predation on large prey and predators dating back for as long as humans have recorded it.
Heck, there are claw marks and deaths attributed to Mammoth and Bison from " very large cats ". "Blue Babe" for one
https://books.google.com/books?id=csJlqn4BokIC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=wooly+mammoth+found+with+claw+marks&source=bl&ots=Sex9huTTFz&sig=2mE5tfNVoN5H5yv0AqGsVvu-yc0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O7I2VZG9NZSzoQTDloCADA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=wooly%20mammoth%20found%20with%20claw%20marks&f=false
Even Schaller noticed this in the 60s and 70s. The access to wild life has just recently been allowed to the general public and video and photograph have just recently been mobilized and allowed us to shoot this up close and often.
What really dictates Lion predation is availability of prey, that's why most switch prey choices depending on what herds are migrating through their territory. The new climate change that's occurring may be a true deal changer.
That was a joke.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Amnon242 - 04-23-2015
(04-22-2015, 10:39 PM)'sanjay' Wrote: Well, I got some information from the facebook page Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons .
I asked for some weight and body dimension measurement and I got the following figures for the notches
Quote:They are quite large males ,you are looking at around 230kg - 255kg when they have eaten.
Around 9ft long and 4.5 tall.
230 kg without a meal.
Around 240 in migration period due to lots of food, then 260 after eating
I have also asked for the source of this information and waiting for the answer. The page owner of the Notch the Lion-King of the Mara and His Five Sons, Is very mature and seems to be very knowledgeable person.
Sanjay, 4,5 height is certainly very exaggerated and it undermines the credibility of the source (btw "230kg - 255kg when they have eaten" vs "230 kg without a meal").
Ok... 230 kg empty? Hm, extremely heavy lions. Average serengetti males are around 180 kg (I dont know if empty - other posters could clarifiy that). I dont know how what is the weight of these lions and I dont want to estimate them via photos or videos, but what I know is that 200 kg empty lion is a very huge beast (for lion fans I have to add that the same goes for 230 kg empty tiger).
Another point is alleged growth of new lion generations...what is the explanation? Why should they be bigger? More food? Probably no, because more food = more lions.
RE: Lion king Notch and his famous 5 sons - Amnon242 - 04-24-2015
(04-23-2015, 09:25 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: A shoulder height of 4.5 ft (137 cm)????????
Jajajajaja, not even the giant Panthera atrox or the Ngandong tiger were so tall at the shoulders!!! [img]images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Exactly, tigers (bengal, amur) and lions are aroud 1 m tall (lions seem to me to be slighthly taler than amur tigers - perhaps optical illusion caused by mane and more upright posture). Eveybody can draw a line at a wall in height of 1 m...and now imagine a felid of this height....even 1 m height means huge felid.
btw tiger and lion fans are the same - we have tendency to be not very realistic when it comes to size of our favourite animal :)