Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill

Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Printable Version

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RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pckts - 04-13-2020

(04-13-2020, 07:12 PM)parvez Wrote: I had conversation with an onfield tiger expert. He told me gaurs are killed easily within way less than 5 minutes. The tiger jumped on to the back of gaur or will try to get on top when they face off. Then it will bite top portion of gaurs neck probably crushing the vertebrae killing it instantly. In this video you can clearly see those words coming true. The top of the neck is severely bitten inflicting deep wounds to the upper neck with high chances of damage to vertebrae. He also told me rhinos and elephants, though rare, ARE targeted AND KILLED by tigers.

This was a small cow killed in Kanha by a large male tiger.
There is no eye witness of a Large bull being Killed by a Tiger unfortunately. But there is an account of an old bull named Odin who was in an all night battle with a Tiger and wasn't killed, showing the idea that they can kill a healthy bull in 5 minutes to be a stretch imo.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - parvez - 04-13-2020

(04-13-2020, 07:47 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 07:12 PM)parvez Wrote: I had conversation with an onfield tiger expert. He told me gaurs are killed easily within way less than 5 minutes. The tiger jumped on to the back of gaur or will try to get on top when they face off. Then it will bite top portion of gaurs neck probably crushing the vertebrae killing it instantly. In this video you can clearly see those words coming true. The top of the neck is severely bitten inflicting deep wounds to the upper neck with high chances of damage to vertebrae. He also told me rhinos and elephants, though rare, ARE targeted AND KILLED by tigers.

This was a small cow killed in Kanha by a large male tiger.
There is no eye witness of a Large bull being Killed by a Tiger unfortunately. But there is an account of an old bull named Odin who was in an all night battle with a Tiger and wasn't killed, showing the idea that they can kill a healthy bull in 5 minutes to be a stretch imo.

I will speak to the expert further and bring here the essence of our conversation. I am confident he HAS seen the accounts of big bulls killed by tigers. The Odin account I read it too. There is also an account of a pair of tigers killing a very large bull elephant recorded by Corbett. So, there is nothing to wonder in the fact that the tigers have killed large bulls. Perhaps Odin being an experienced bull should have taken precautions against the tiger jumping onto the back of it and ensure the collision is only head on. He may be an expert bull warrior. I suppose the tiger wasn't an experienced warrior there. I have seen videos of kanha tigers in which one of the tigers was probably munna who is easily 250kgs++. And the bull was around 5-6 times bigger than him. So, that's a huge specimen if you ask me. I certainly don't doubt tigers killing huge gaur specimens.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pckts - 04-13-2020

(04-13-2020, 08:01 PM)parvez Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 07:47 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-13-2020, 07:12 PM)parvez Wrote: I had conversation with an onfield tiger expert. He told me gaurs are killed easily within way less than 5 minutes. The tiger jumped on to the back of gaur or will try to get on top when they face off. Then it will bite top portion of gaurs neck probably crushing the vertebrae killing it instantly. In this video you can clearly see those words coming true. The top of the neck is severely bitten inflicting deep wounds to the upper neck with high chances of damage to vertebrae. He also told me rhinos and elephants, though rare, ARE targeted AND KILLED by tigers.

This was a small cow killed in Kanha by a large male tiger.
There is no eye witness of a Large bull being Killed by a Tiger unfortunately. But there is an account of an old bull named Odin who was in an all night battle with a Tiger and wasn't killed, showing the idea that they can kill a healthy bull in 5 minutes to be a stretch imo.
I will speak to the expert further and bring here the essence of our conversation. I am confident he HAS seen the accounts of big bulls killed by tigers. The Odin account I read it too. There is also an account of a pair of tigers killing a very large bull elephant recorded by Corbett. So, there is nothing to wonder in the fact that the tigers have killed large bulls. Perhaps Odin being an experienced bull should have taken precautions against the tiger jumping onto the back of it and ensure the collision is only head on. He may be an expert bull warrior. I suppose the tiger wasn't an experienced warrior there. I have seen videos of kanha tigers in which one of the tigers was probably munna who is easily 250kgs++. And the bull was around 5-6 times bigger than him. So, that's a huge specimen if you ask me. I certainly don't doubt tigers killing huge gaur specimens.

Please do, I have my doubts that he's seen any in person since it's such a rare sight but I'm especially curious.

In regards to Corbett, he neither witnesses the fight and conflicting reports of the duration of the fight exist. Neither the alleged Tigers were seen nor was any of the Elephant carcass consumed.
Odin was an old male missing quite a bit of his mass, not nearly in his prime.
Munna killed a bull estimated to be 400-600kg if I remember correctly, not a 1000kg big alpha.
Still an impressive feat, dont get me wrong.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - johnny rex - 04-13-2020

To quickly summarize, there are no male lions or male tigers that can easily kill a healthy big bull buffalo or gaur alone.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - parvez - 04-13-2020

Here is the chat,

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RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pckts - 04-14-2020

(04-13-2020, 10:04 PM)parvez Wrote: Here is the chat,

*This image is copyright of its original author

I'll be honest, I highly doubt he's understanding the question correctly.
For one, Gaur don't get to 2 tons and he may be just referring to accounts in studies like we're discussing.
What's his profession or name if you don't mind?

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pantherinae - 04-14-2020

I agree with Pckts on this matter. The largest and healthiest bulls are probably too big and strong. And no cat would attempt to attack such animals with other prey available.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - parvez - 04-14-2020

I asked a gaur researcher on this. The captive zoo weights for male gaurs of which some of them were rescued orphans from wild was 600-1000 kgs. In wild they seem much bigger.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pckts - 04-14-2020

(04-14-2020, 08:42 PM)parvez Wrote: I asked a gaur researcher on this. The captive zoo weights for male gaurs of which some of them were rescued orphans from wild was 600-1000 kgs. In wild they seem much bigger.

1000kg by all accounts is a top tier Gaur in India.
They do grow even larger in S.E. Asia but even then I doubt they're getting above 1500kg, at least from the weights I've seen.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - parvez - 04-14-2020

@Pckts he told me north east gaurs are heavier. The largest they weighed was 1700kgs. They don't weigh them in the wild. They take estimates from body measurements. And it was not the biggest they have seen. That itself speaks.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Pckts - 04-14-2020

(04-14-2020, 09:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Pckts he told me north east gaurs are heavier. The largest they weighed was 1700kgs. They don't weigh them in the wild. They take estimates from body measurements. And it was not the biggest they have seen. That itself speaks.

What part of the N. East?
They are hardly seen in Kaziranga I'm not sure about other parts of Assam though.
I think the highest weight confirmed was around 1700kg and in S.E. Asia, none in India have come close to that weight to my knowledge.
But I'm curious if you asked him if he actually witnessed a Tiger kill a 1000+kg Bull Gaur, I'm also curious who you're actually speaking with.
If it's a photographer or a Naturalist, that's not going to hold much weight tbh.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - Ashutosh - 04-14-2020

Gaurs are found all across Northeast India at altitudes below 1800m. So, basically from foothill of Himalayas to every place there is a slight elevation, Gaurs are found there. They like a bit of hilly terrain and forested landscape. That is the reason why only certain Central Indian parks like Melghat and Tadoba have Gaur.

Kaziranga only has a small population of Gaur because only on the fringes of Kaziranga’s wooded forests are the Karbi Anglong hills (where most animals from Kaziranga take refuge during annual floods). They are quite abundant in parks like Manas and also Royal Manas of Bhutan.

Gaur in Northeastern India are bigger than the ones from Southern India. Although, I am not sure they match the ones from Malaysia in weight, but the males still top 1,000 kilos easily.

And, the recent publication of diet of Indochinese tiger from Thailand does say that tigers kill bull gaurs. The average prey weight was 420 kilos (if I remember correctly) with few big males.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - parvez - 04-15-2020

He is a researcher who published quite a few publications. He told me gaurs constitute 30% of tigers diet. Only kaziranga doesn't have gaurs. Rest of northeast seems to have. Tigers in many cases though target young gaurs. Yet there are cases they target bigger bulls too. As I said with stealth and cunning abilities by getting to top portion of neck of the animal they will be able to kill even the bigger ones.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - GuateGojira - 04-16-2020

(04-11-2020, 11:57 PM)Pckts Wrote: Once again, kill weights were estimated and not only that but Tigers feeding on kills were almost 2 per kill which could mean cooperation.

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Also showing no avoidance between leopard and tiger hunting times which is what Sankhala specifically disagreed with Schaller about.

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Where exactly are you coming up with Karanth seeing Bulls killed?

And this carcass below

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Its stuck in deep mud, mass amount of flesh is missing and how in the world would you be able to determine cause of death let alone a weight or health of that animal?
Like Sankhala notes in his book, kills are fed on by many animals and Tigers will leave kills for long periods of time after full and Hyena, jackal, vulture, jungle cat, leopard and many other predators will eat at that carcass while they're gone.

You say: "Once again, kill weights were estimated and not only that but Tigers feeding on kills were almost 2 per kill which could mean cooperation."

Did you forget this image:

*This image is copyright of its original author

They did weighed the animals, the estimation was just for the part that the tiger (or other predator) already ate, so the figures are based in real weights plus the amoutn ate, after all.

Also, if two or more tigers are in a kill do not means cooperation at all. In fact, there are several records of tigers eating on kills that were made by a single tiger. The famous event of 9 tigers reported by Valmik Thapar is a great example, the female killed the nilgai of about 250 kg and latter the other tigers (all familiars) arrived and ate in order. You are speculating too much on this.

Also the document that you show si the one of 2000 while the one that I am using is the one of 1995 specifically about predator and prey relation. In fact, the pages that you use do not add anything new that I allready had not showed. And about that part that says "estimated weights" I allready told you that they estimated from the part that was already consumed, but they did weighed the animals, there is a picture with a big gaur (based on the head) so I don't see your point in denied this fact.

Here is what Dr Karanth says about the weighing, again:

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Here confirmed by Dr Sunquist:

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Do you think that they will lie in they publications?

And about bulls killed, here you have it, from the document of 1995, with percentage of bulls, the health status and other details of the prey killed:

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There is no doubt, tigers do kill gaurs of up to 1000 kg, is a proved fact and the top experts on tigers in the field provided the evidence. Obviously tigers are not targeting the big bulls all the time as we know that most of the gaur killied are youngs and that is why the average weight of the gaur killed is of 287 kg (and I said that since the begining), but from time to time they do the work and they have a big meal to eat:

That is why Dr Karanth said this:

*This image is copyright of its original author

And like other posters said, it seems that tigers can also kill adult Indian rhinos, but there is few information about that.

RE: Maximum size of prey that a single male lion or tiger can kill - GuateGojira - 04-16-2020

(04-13-2020, 09:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote: To quickly summarize, there are no male lions or male tigers that can easily kill a healthy big bull buffalo or gaur alone.

That is not correct. Read what I post from Dr Karanth and Dr Sunquist, all the information, tables and screenshots and not just the speculation of one person. Tigers can and do kill healthy big bull gaur up to 1000 kg alone, but is not a common feat, that is for sure. Must of the time (almoust 60% of the hunts) they will target the young specimens.

I don't know about lions as I don't have the information, but I can speculate that a male lion can kill a 900 kg male African buffalo too.