(10-07-2020, 07:01 PM)Gijima Wrote: Read something about how the NAvocas just walked into an empty territory on the Lions of SS thread and wanted to clear up that info (moving it to the Avoca thread to not spam the other one). I’m not blaming the poster since this is spread by some uninformed guides on WE all the time but here is a video of the BBoys coming to Djuma for the last time (May 3 2018) to fight for their territory and leaving battered and bruised, never to return again to the north:

[video=youtube]https://https://youtu.be/Q_NbRYXefYk[/video]

Some interesting things to remember:

1) Although BBoys moved to the south, they did often visit the north (nkuhuma and Styx in 2018). No coalition of 4 would limit themselves to one pride or even just Mala Mala. They would have ideally have owned most of the eastern sector as any normal coalition of 4 would, with multiple prides. The N Avocas had everything to do with limiting BBoys to just one pride and yes, BBoys could definitely have fought and ousted the Avocas if they attacked them as a coalition of 4 but they chose not to. 

2) In the video the ranger says one lion was seen running north. This fight happened in May 3 2018 and Mfumo was never seen after this date. This is purely speculation but could Mfumo have been with these two BBoys when they came up north? The last reports of Mfumo are that he was seen “up north”... so he had to have been with Tinyo and Nsuku because clearly they were up north too.. All of this is speculation I know but it always bothered me he just went MIA and this is the only real confrontation I can think of that happened at that time. 

Anyways....just wanted to share.

(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video: 

These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that. 

Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me. 

Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.

(10-08-2020, 03:18 AM)Matimbalani Wrote: I am not contesting that there wasn't a fight. I am contesting the statement that they somehow pushed the BBoys out after a sustained challenge or that they had a hand in Mfumo's disappearance. Lions prime or otherwise die or disappear all the time without a trace, its not that unusual. Mistime a jump on a buffalo and a punctured lung would mean bleeding slowly to death. 

The Southern Avocas were chased out of their territory and separated around Kirkman's camp the last time the Charleston's popped up there. The Charleston's never returned to that territory again, by this logic it means that they were pushed out too and that the Avocas somehow killed Mezzino Charleston since he was found with a broken back a few weeks later.

(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video: 

These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that. 

Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me. 

Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.

(10-07-2020, 10:28 PM)Gijima Wrote: I agree this definitely wasn't a violent takeover but it wasn't any less impressive than the way Bboys took over the north. For one thing, the Avocas were outnumbered... how many young males try to sneak into other male's territories like this and get isolated or cornered and killed? They definitely played the game well, and took a risk. I guess I just hate when people act like the Avocas took no risk and walked into an open territory... which wasn't the case. 


Bboys were with both prides I think until March (Nhena was mating with Amber eyes), and then when they returned in May, Nsuku had a swollen eye, a puncture wound on his head and Tinyo was slightly limping. Honestly who even knows what happened that night... it was just interesting. 

Mfumo- I think I read somewhere that the last he was seen was "up north" or "in Kruger". There was a lot of random information floating around about his disappearance and no, I really don't think Avocas had anything to do it. Having said that, he definitely went somewhere so it was just interesting to know that all of this happened around the same time.

(10-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Slayerd Wrote:

(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video: 



These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that. 

Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me. 

Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.

A finales de 2017 y principios de 2018, los Bboys abandonaron el Norte para extenderse. Todavía venían al norte de vez en cuando, pero en su mayoría se quedaron atascados hacia el sur hasta donde se veían en Lion Sands y Kirkmans Kamp al sur para ser vistos en Western Singita al oeste, así que realmente estaban dejando volar sus alas. Eso es casi todo Sabi Sands y en este tiempo persiguieron y empujaron fuera de los Matshipiri, los Avocas del Sur y según Mala Mala impidieron que el poderoso Mantimahle llegara más al norte, ya que fueron vistos empujando a Sabi Sands incluso siendo vistos con el Orgullo Kambula en ocasiones. Durante este tiempo, los N Avocas empujaron a Sabi Sand e hicieron una reclamación. 2 Bboys vinieron, Nsuku, Tinyo y luego Nhenha y de acuerdo con Safari Live en ese momento las pistas de Avocas fueron vistas dirigiéndose a los Manyelethi. Así que corrieron después de oír rugir a 3 Bboys. Los Bboys se quedaron en el norte por un tiempo y luego aparentemente se fueron al sur. Después de ese safari de vida silvestre lanzó ese video diciendo que los Bboys estaban de alguna manera heridos y podría haber habido una pelea. Bueno, no lo sabemos con seguridad. Por lo que sabemos Nhenha se enojó y los golpeó como siempre lo hace. ¿Y por qué los Birmingham tenían heridas y no los Avocas? ¿Realmente crees que 2 machos de primera calidad completamente adultos no van a golpear a los jóvenes inexpertos y se van a poner peor? Quiero decir que puedes ver lo que los Bboys se hacen el uno al otro, no hay manera de que no golpearan a los jóvenes. Sí, los Bboys trataron de empujarlos hacia el norte, pero para entonces ya estaban tan al sur y al oeste que no necesitaban hacerlo. Acaban de abandonar la zona. ¿También dijiste 1 orgullo? No, los Birmingham todavía se apareaban con los Kambula en ese momento y todavía se estaban extendiendo porque se apareaban con el orgullo de Mangheni y encontraban el Tsalala. Una vez más hay fotos de los Avocas después de la reaparición si Mfumo. ¿Realmente crees que pudieron haber matado a un hombre de primera y salir ilesos?

(10-08-2020, 11:53 AM)titose Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Slayerd Wrote:

(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video: 



These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that. 

Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me. 

Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.

A finales de 2017 y principios de 2018, los Bboys abandonaron el Norte para extenderse. Todavía venían al norte de vez en cuando, pero en su mayoría se quedaron atascados hacia el sur hasta donde se veían en Lion Sands y Kirkmans Kamp al sur para ser vistos en Western Singita al oeste, así que realmente estaban dejando volar sus alas. Eso es casi todo Sabi Sands y en este tiempo persiguieron y empujaron fuera de los Matshipiri, los Avocas del Sur y según Mala Mala impidieron que el poderoso Mantimahle llegara más al norte, ya que fueron vistos empujando a Sabi Sands incluso siendo vistos con el Orgullo Kambula en ocasiones. Durante este tiempo, los N Avocas empujaron a Sabi Sand e hicieron una reclamación. 2 Bboys vinieron, Nsuku, Tinyo y luego Nhenha y de acuerdo con Safari Live en ese momento las pistas de Avocas fueron vistas dirigiéndose a los Manyelethi. Así que corrieron después de oír rugir a 3 Bboys. Los Bboys se quedaron en el norte por un tiempo y luego aparentemente se fueron al sur. Después de ese safari de vida silvestre lanzó ese video diciendo que los Bboys estaban de alguna manera heridos y podría haber habido una pelea. Bueno, no lo sabemos con seguridad. Por lo que sabemos Nhenha se enojó y los golpeó como siempre lo hace. ¿Y por qué los Birmingham tenían heridas y no los Avocas? ¿Realmente crees que 2 machos de primera calidad completamente adultos no van a golpear a los jóvenes inexpertos y se van a poner peor? Quiero decir que puedes ver lo que los Bboys se hacen el uno al otro, no hay manera de que no golpearan a los jóvenes. Sí, los Bboys trataron de empujarlos hacia el norte, pero para entonces ya estaban tan al sur y al oeste que no necesitaban hacerlo. Acaban de abandonar la zona. ¿También dijiste 1 orgullo? No, los Birmingham todavía se apareaban con los Kambula en ese momento y todavía se estaban extendiendo porque se apareaban con el orgullo de Mangheni y encontraban el Tsalala. Una vez más hay fotos de los Avocas después de la reaparición si Mfumo. ¿Realmente crees que pudieron haber matado a un hombre de primera y salir ilesos?

When you talk about the Avoca males running away after hearing the roars of the Birmingham boys, I am not very sure because there is a 56 minute video that you can hear the 2 coalitions having a roaring interaction, this roaring confrontation starts at minute 12:00, 16:00, 22:00 and 38:00