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+--- Thread: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) (/topic-the-heaviest-liger-actually-measured-by-guinness-2014)
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - Shadow - 06-18-2019
(06-18-2019, 03:41 AM)Pckts Wrote:Last two photos, this tiger which might be Baikal and that 600 lbs tiger. I don´t see there any significant difference. My personal opinion is, (and I want to underline that this is my opinion which anyone is free to disagree), that based on what I have seen so far any tiger weighing 800 lbs is clearly obese. I think so because I have never seen anything even close to that confirmed with known big tigers unless belly is hanging like it would be pregnant.(06-18-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:It's a big cluster "F" no one knows the exact reason why Baikal's weight isn't confirmed by that zoo or if it's even the same Tiger or if the weight is even valid.(01-06-2016, 11:06 PM)Pckts Wrote: Heres all the info on him....
*This image is copyright of its original author
this was a young Baikal around age 12 when he was weighed
*This image is copyright of its original author
this was him later in life
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
He was much older when his death came at the hands of the two young males and he definitely could of lost a significant amount of weight in such a long time period. Old age gets the best of everyone...
This case Baikal is again one quite interesting. I mean 850 lbs tiger, which wouldn´t be obese... and only places to find information are some discussion forums. Nothing can be found otherwise, zoo´s connected to it mention nothing about such sensational tiger, maybe biggest ever if that weight would be real. I mean really???
I just wrote to Assiniboine Park Zoo and reply was, that tiger named Baikal averaged between 190-200 kg, person who replied to me knew nothing about claimed weight 850 lbs. I guess, that old tiger can shrink, but from 385 kg to under 200 kg. I really am not able to buy that. I asked again just to be sure, but something seems to be wrong in this case. And really such sensational tiger and only one photo about it could be found from internet.
Interesting to see if some new information can be still found. Is that Matt John someone from this forum or? I mean how sure it is, that email is real?
Edit: Also look at head of those tigers in photos, looks like different tiger in summer photo compared to winter photo. Pattern on head is different and also otherwise I don´t see too much similarities.
In regards to a Tiger being 850lbs in captivity and not being obese, I agree, it's extremely unlikely.
Here are some 600lber confirmed Amurs for comparison
This was from an old poster who worked with them named Eagleraptor
"T
The next two is of a Siberian tiger who weighs 611 lbs (he was weighed).
The zoo keeper in both photos is 5-10."
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
"The next one is the first Siberian i looked after.
The people behind are on about 6 inch higher ground than the tiger."
*This image is copyright of its original author
The next two are of a Siberian i sometimes visit, he weighs 602 lbs (been weighed)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
As you can see, these boys are large at 600+lbs but they still have a bit of fat so I really have a hard time imaging any cat over that size in captivity not having some fat on them.
I'm not sure what people consider obese, I'd say these boys aren't obese, just a bit overweight.
Here's just how rare he said a 600lber actually is
"Ive so far been to see in zoos 16 male Siberian`s, but only 3 of them was around 600 lbs,
and most of the others was between 400-500 lbs."
He did say that he thought this male, whoever he is could be 800lbs though
"Mostly i agree with you that most 800 lb cats are usually fat, but i would not say they are all fat.
This Amur tiger is not what i would call fat, but he apparently weighs around 800 lb, however, i'm not certain how credible the info is regarding his weight.
The reason i think this Amur (in first photo) might be 800 lb is because.....the second photo is a Amur that i often visited, and he was weighed at 611 lb by his keeper that i used to work with at another zoo (he is very reliable) he is also in the second photo and he is 5-10 tall.
If we consider the second photo shows an Amur over 600 lb, and by comparing him to the first photo....i would say the first Amur might be 800 lb as the info said."
*This image is copyright of its original author
When looking for instance Jaipur, I change here to kg, 423 kg and so fat, that hurts to watch. I consider that already animal cruelty. Take from there 50 kg and it would be still be like pregnant waiting twins. With more exercise, like wild tigers get naturally, maybe there could be more muscle and less fat, but I think that if healthy tiger, it would be around 300-325 kg max, imo.
More I see, more I tend to think that any modern big cat just isn´t meant to be anything near 400 kg. Even ligers nearing that weight are clearly obese every time. So how could smaller big cat weight that much and be healthy same time... It has to be remembered that already 300 kg tiger is exceptionally big and has been that also in past, not just recently. Thinking there almost 100 kg more.... maybe some individuals having same health issues as some humans, acromelagy or something like that... who knows.
But what comes to Baikal itself. Trying to find any source about it, outside discussion forums, I couldn´t find anything. Even photos about it seem to be from same forums. I find it very odd and that is why I think, that 850 lbs weight is just fabricated myth, not fact. But if someone can prove me wrong, by all means. I have nothing against it, but without solid proof I personally don´t believe in that after checking what could be checked.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - Shadow - 06-18-2019
(06-18-2019, 04:05 AM)Shadow Wrote:(06-18-2019, 03:41 AM)Pckts Wrote:Last two photos, this tiger which might be Baikal and that 600 lbs tiger. I don´t see there any significant difference. My personal opinion is, (and I want to underline that this is my opinion which anyone is free to disagree), that based on what I have seen so far any tiger weighing 800 lbs is clearly obese. I think so because I have never seen anything even close to that confirmed with known big tigers unless belly is hanging like it would be pregnant.(06-18-2019, 01:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:It's a big cluster "F" no one knows the exact reason why Baikal's weight isn't confirmed by that zoo or if it's even the same Tiger or if the weight is even valid.(01-06-2016, 11:06 PM)Pckts Wrote: Heres all the info on him....
*This image is copyright of its original author
this was a young Baikal around age 12 when he was weighed
*This image is copyright of its original author
this was him later in life
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
He was much older when his death came at the hands of the two young males and he definitely could of lost a significant amount of weight in such a long time period. Old age gets the best of everyone...
This case Baikal is again one quite interesting. I mean 850 lbs tiger, which wouldn´t be obese... and only places to find information are some discussion forums. Nothing can be found otherwise, zoo´s connected to it mention nothing about such sensational tiger, maybe biggest ever if that weight would be real. I mean really???
I just wrote to Assiniboine Park Zoo and reply was, that tiger named Baikal averaged between 190-200 kg, person who replied to me knew nothing about claimed weight 850 lbs. I guess, that old tiger can shrink, but from 385 kg to under 200 kg. I really am not able to buy that. I asked again just to be sure, but something seems to be wrong in this case. And really such sensational tiger and only one photo about it could be found from internet.
Interesting to see if some new information can be still found. Is that Matt John someone from this forum or? I mean how sure it is, that email is real?
Edit: Also look at head of those tigers in photos, looks like different tiger in summer photo compared to winter photo. Pattern on head is different and also otherwise I don´t see too much similarities.
In regards to a Tiger being 850lbs in captivity and not being obese, I agree, it's extremely unlikely.
Here are some 600lber confirmed Amurs for comparison
This was from an old poster who worked with them named Eagleraptor
"T
The next two is of a Siberian tiger who weighs 611 lbs (he was weighed).
The zoo keeper in both photos is 5-10."
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
"The next one is the first Siberian i looked after.
The people behind are on about 6 inch higher ground than the tiger."
*This image is copyright of its original author
The next two are of a Siberian i sometimes visit, he weighs 602 lbs (been weighed)
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
As you can see, these boys are large at 600+lbs but they still have a bit of fat so I really have a hard time imaging any cat over that size in captivity not having some fat on them.
I'm not sure what people consider obese, I'd say these boys aren't obese, just a bit overweight.
Here's just how rare he said a 600lber actually is
"Ive so far been to see in zoos 16 male Siberian`s, but only 3 of them was around 600 lbs,
and most of the others was between 400-500 lbs."
He did say that he thought this male, whoever he is could be 800lbs though
"Mostly i agree with you that most 800 lb cats are usually fat, but i would not say they are all fat.
This Amur tiger is not what i would call fat, but he apparently weighs around 800 lb, however, i'm not certain how credible the info is regarding his weight.
The reason i think this Amur (in first photo) might be 800 lb is because.....the second photo is a Amur that i often visited, and he was weighed at 611 lb by his keeper that i used to work with at another zoo (he is very reliable) he is also in the second photo and he is 5-10 tall.
If we consider the second photo shows an Amur over 600 lb, and by comparing him to the first photo....i would say the first Amur might be 800 lb as the info said."
*This image is copyright of its original author
When looking for instance Jaipur, I change here to kg, 423 kg and so fat, that hurts to watch. I consider that already animal cruelty. Take from there 50 kg and it would be still be like pregnant waiting twins. With more exercise, like wild tigers get naturally, maybe there could be more muscle and less fat, but I think that if healthy tiger, it would be around 300-325 kg max, imo.
More I see, more I tend to think that any modern big cat just isn´t meant to be anything near 400 kg. Even ligers nearing that weight are clearly obese every time. So how could smaller big cat weight that much and be healthy same time... It has to be remembered that already 300 kg tiger is exceptionally big and has been that also in past, not just recently. Thinking there almost 100 kg more.... maybe some individuals having same health issues as some humans, acromelagy or something like that... who knows.
But what comes to Baikal itself. Trying to find any source about it, outside discussion forums, I couldn´t find anything. Even photos about it seem to be from same forums. I find it very odd and that is why I think, that 850 lbs weight is just fabricated myth, not fact. But if someone can prove me wrong, by all means. I have nothing against it, but without solid proof I personally don´t believe in that after checking what could be checked.
It took some time, but I finally found something from internet about this Baikal tiger from Cherry Brook Zoo, which isn´t second hand information. Here is mentioned at least approximate weight of Baikal. There is still quite big difference compared to what I was told from Assiniboine Park Zoo, but this weight written in blog is something what sounds quite realistic if talking about really big tiger in reasonable healthy condition.
Quote:
"Well as much as I really did not want Baikal, our magnificent male Siberian Tiger to leave he is on his way to Winnipeg. After a year of paperwork and transport arrangements he is finally on his way West to the Assiniboine Park Zoo in Winnipeg. Moving an animal of this size is not an easy task but on Wednesday morning we finally accomplished loading a 700 pound animal into a transport crate that weighed 400 pounds and loaded onto a transport trailer."
Source: http://lyndacollrin.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009-09-27T09:18:00-07:00&max-results=7&reverse-paginate=true
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - GuateGojira - 06-25-2019
(06-14-2019, 11:23 AM)Arctotherium Wrote: Jaipur is obeze or something.In nature,Siberian Tiger's average weight is 160-190 kg(By Siberia Research Group.I can't remember)
220 kg is historical Siberian Tiger
You are partially right. Jaipur was obesse, and Hercules is also fat, despite the claim of Guiness and the T.I.G.E.R. organization.
The average weight for male Amur tigers was about 190 kg, figures gathered by me, using the weights from healthy males over 3 years old captured until 2011, recorded by the Siberian Tiger Project and the Amur Tiger Programme. There is a tendency of increasing the weight of males in the last years with males normally reaching the 200 kg, which is good. As far I know, the heaviest male recorded by scientists at the moment is "Luke" with 212 kg, but as I have not investigated anything in the last months, I don't know if there is a new record or if this figure still stands.
Historic Amur tigers were as heavy as modesr/old Bengal tigers, with about 215-218 kg on average. Females are also about the same weight.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - Arctotherium - 06-25-2019
(06-25-2019, 03:38 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:I don't know this infos.Thanks.(06-14-2019, 11:23 AM)Arctotherium Wrote: Jaipur is obeze or something.In nature,Siberian Tiger's average weight is 160-190 kg(By Siberia Research Group.I can't remember)
220 kg is historical Siberian Tiger
You are partially right. Jaipur was obesse, and Hercules is also fat, despite the claim of Guiness and the T.I.G.E.R. organization.
The average weight for male Amur tigers was about 190 kg, figures gathered by me, using the weights from healthy males over 3 years old captured until 2011, recorded by the Siberian Tiger Project and the Amur Tiger Programme. There is a tendency of increasing the weight of males in the last years with males normally reaching the 200 kg, which is good. As far I know, the heaviest male recorded by scientists at the moment is "Luke" with 212 kg, but as I have not investigated anything in the last months, I don't know if there is a new record or if this figure still stands.
Historic Amur tigers were as heavy as modesr/old Bengal tigers, with about 215-218 kg on average. Females are also about the same weight.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - GuateGojira - 10-31-2019
(04-22-2014, 03:37 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: 2. Cubanacan from Guinness:
The Calcuta Zoo first tigon was Rudhrani, born in 1971, was mated to an Asiatic lion called Debabrata and produced 7 li-tigons in her lifetime. Some of these reached impressive sizes - a li-tigon named Cubanacan (died April 12th, 1991) was believed to weigh at least 800lb/363 kg, stood 52 inches/1.32m at the shoulder and 11.5ft/3.5 m total length (1994: GBWR "largest litigon").
*This image is copyright of its original author
I will like to make a correction, I was checking these webpages:
http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-liger.htm
http://karlshuker.blogspot.com/2017/08/cubanacan-litigon-rediscovering-long.html
https://www.natureasia.com/en/nindia/article/10.1038/nindia.2017.46
It seems that the picture of the previous cat, that I belived it was from "Cubanacan", is incorrect. That is a liger from the trainer Josip Marcan and is not the famous Li-tigon from the Alipore zoo. The next image is the real picture of the adult "Cubanacan":
*This image is copyright of its original author
The only problem with those pages is that they state that these Li-tigon was actually weighed, when actually is not the case. It was just estimated at least 800 lb, but it was actually measured.
Hope this help to clarify any error.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - GrizzlyClaws - 10-31-2019
He didn’t look fat at all, and strongly reminiscing a modern replica of the Cave lion.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - GuateGojira - 10-31-2019
(10-31-2019, 07:10 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: He didn’t look fat at all, and strongly reminiscing a modern replica of the Cave lion.
With a total length of 3.5 m and a shoulder height of 1.32 m, definelly it had the size of a huge Cave "lion" from the group fossilis!
It was estimated at 800 lb (363 kg) and as we can see it did not had the large fat layer that the largest captive lions/tigers and ligers normally have. So it was probably a very meager specimen, taking also in count the conditions of the Indian Zoos in those days, specially the Alipore one.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - GrizzlyClaws - 11-01-2019
(10-31-2019, 09:44 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(10-31-2019, 07:10 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: He didn’t look fat at all, and strongly reminiscing a modern replica of the Cave lion.
With a total length of 3.5 m and a shoulder height of 1.32 m, definelly it had the size of a huge Cave "lion" from the group fossilis!
It was estimated at 800 lb (363 kg) and as we can see it did not had the large fat layer that the largest captive lions/tigers and ligers normally have. So it was probably a very meager specimen, taking also in count the conditions of the Indian Zoos in those days, specially the Alipore one.
After all, he looked quite bony, not like those meaty/chubby specimens from the captivity.
It would be interesting to know his skull measurement, and I bet it got potential to produce a recorded sized one if they had a chance to measure it.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - johnny rex - 12-13-2019
[attachment=3272]
@peter , do you still remember this picture? I remember you used to say this is a exceptional sized tigon. According to this link http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-liger.htm it was said it was a li-tigon (75% lion, 25% tiger) but in other different websites I've seen, they said it was a liger. It is very confusing. Is it a tigon or something else?
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - peter - 12-14-2019
JOHNNY
a - Source
The photographs I posted ago are from 'Die Hoge Schule der Raubtierdressur' (Hans-Jürgen and Rosemarie Tiede, Freizeit News Verlag, Kaufbeuren, Germany, 1997, 448 pages). Here's the cover:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The photograph on the cover was made in 1989 in Frauenfeld (Switzerland) by Dieter Berke (Aadorf, Switzerland). He was one of the best. The trainer is Elvira Wegmann and the leopard is 'Jana'.
The book is based on information the Tiedes found in professional magazins (including circus magazins) from all over the world. All photographs are from specialists. Hans-Jürgen and Rosemarie also interviewed many trainers and directors of circuses.
Josip Marcan was interviewed in 1965 and 1993. Hans-Jürgen considered him a friend. The part on Josip Marcan (pp. 221-227) is loaded with information. Tiede, who has contacts all over the world and had been a trainer himself, knew his business.
b - Josip Marcan
Josip Marcan was born in Grabovnica (Kroatia) in 1938. In his day, those interested in working with (exotic) animals were able to educate themselves in 'Dressurschulen'. There was one in Valkenburg (the Netherlands). I interviewed the long-time Director Erich ('Klant') Hagenbeck quite some years ago.
Anyhow. Marcan graduated at the Zagreb 'Dressurschule' and then moved to Moscow (Russia). After graduating, he worked in zoos in Germany. Back then, zoos, like circuses, often offered shows with medium-sized big cats. Lions and tigers were out, because they could be seen in the circuses. It was the famous Prof. Dr. Bernhard Grzimek who adviced Marcan to start with pumas and leopards.
In 1967, Marcan moved to Florida (USA). Over there, he was offered the opportunity to work with lions and tigers. In the years that followed, he quickly gained a reputation. Marcan worked in most countries in South and Central America. In the late eighties and early nineties of the previous century, he worked for the Clyde Beatty-Cole Bros. Circus.
In the eighties, he started breeding. The cats he bred (white tigers, Ligers, Tigons, Li-Ti's, Ti-Li's and Golden Tabbies) were much in demand. Siegfried & Roy, for example, used some of his white tigers.
As he had intimate knowledge of all cats he bred, one has to assume he knew about the differences between Ligers, Tigons, Ti-Li's and Li-Ti's. Same for Hans-Jürgen and Rosemarie Tiede. For this reason, it's likely the information in their book is correct.
c - Photographs
Here's a few photographs from the book. I left the liner notes on purpose.
This is a Liger (cross between a male lion and a tigress) in 1987:
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is a Ti-Li (1992). As far as I know, a Ti-Li is a cross between a Tigon and a Liger, but others use very different definitions:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Same Ti-Li (1992, Stuttgart, Germany):
*This image is copyright of its original author
c - Conclusion
The cat in both pictures you (re)posted is not a Li-Ti or a Tigon, but a Ti-Li, a cross between a Tigon (male tiger and lioness) and a Liger (male lion and tigress). At least, that's what they told me.
The confusion on Tigons, Ligers, Ti-Li's, Li-Ti's and everything else produced in this department is a result of (a lack of) definitions. If you really want to get to the core of it, you've no option but to contact those in the know.
V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', third edition, 1983, pp. 204-212) wrote a bit about crosses in his book, but it could be his information is outdated. Same for what I know. Don't hold it against me. I'm not that interested in experiments with captive big cats. All clear?
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - johnny rex - 12-18-2019
The male liger's roar sounds like a unique mixture of tiger's and lion's roar.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - scilover - 06-29-2020
Woah, that liger is huge! I've never seen one so big before, it outsize me 3 times! It's so interesting to know that with a hybrid of a male lion and female tiger, the liger will become the biggest in the feline species.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - Stripedlion2 - 08-05-2020
Man every time I look at a large tiger I’m just amazed ! The huge head and teeth the muscular forearms the long body and huge shoulders just an amazing work of evolution.
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - Hello - 01-07-2023
Hercules the liger's skin. Based on facial markings, whisker spots and shape of head, the skin most likely belonged to Hercules.
EDIT: the forehead markings doesn't match the skin, but not sure.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: The heaviest Liger ACTUALLY measured by Guinness (2014) - johnny rex - 06-14-2023
(01-07-2023, 10:05 PM)Hello Wrote: Hercules the liger's skin. Based on facial markings, whisker spots and shape of head, the skin most likely belonged to Hercules.
EDIT: the forehead markings doesn't match the skin, but not sure.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Did they keep its skull?