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+----- Thread: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros (/topic-lion-predation-on-the-african-black-rhinoceros)
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 04:36 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Here is the clipThat certainly doesn't look like a full grown female rhino at all, nor do we know exactly how many lions were involved since the whole pride is there.
Also, in regards to your statement on Bull Capes being as large as black rhino females, I cannot speak on that, only the young male I saw that was average size for a Black rhino according to our guide and the Bull capes didn't come close to his size. Same is stated from the guide in the video I posted.
Its not the height that's the difference, its the girth. Capes just don't come close to the mass, at least the ones in the Crater and Serengeti. The only ones that are comparable in body dimensions (not girth) where the bachelor males and those guys also seemed out of the realm of possibilities of a couple of lions, which I stated in the images I took.
You know that there is a huge difference between individual sizes in herds, the big males stand out, there is no mistaking them, same with the matriarch or prime females. They just have a size and attitude unseen in the sub adults and the old.
Never once did we come across a herd of Cape or Elephant and not be able to tell who the adults where or the dominate ones, those are the ones I am talking about. "adult, healthy animals"
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - peter - 10-18-2016
LIONS AND RHINOS
The info posted by Spalea is as clear as it gets: in the days wild country was still plentiful, some saw things considered impossible today. You can consider anything you want, but there's no question experienced and reliable observers saw lions attack and bring down adult rhinos.
AMAZING STORIES
I've read many books written by naturalists, rangers and hunters. Most were written a long time ago, when there were still ten lions for every one today. On the move all the time, often on their own or with a few trackers and a cook, they saw things we just can't imagine today. Lions were not the only ones who surprised them time and again. One ranger saw a long and titanic struggle between a python and a large croc. The python, badly bitten, had the croc near the base of the tail and the skull and finally was able to break his spine. A few days later, the ranger was able to get to the croc, who was lying on a bank in the middle of the river. The diamonds he found in its stomach enabled him to support the reserve that employed him. True story. There are many.
In the days when it was unclear if man or animal would prevail in very wild regions, strange strings happened. Some of the stories I read were amazing. What I later heard from those who had lived in wild country all their life also was.
SCIENCE
Science is a great instrument to get to knowledge. It has been tested and proven to be effective. Without science, the world would have been very different. Not saying most of us would have been involved in struggles started by religious institutions just like many centuries ago, but it could have been close. Better not forget that.
Science, however, is in particular true at the level of millions. Not always at the level of individuals. Percentagewise, the number of exceptions is limited, but in absolutes it's not. This also is true. The reason is every living creature is an exception.
Science is about knowledge. As it takes a lot of time to get to knowledge, those involved in science need time. And money. In Europe, the State used to pay. The last decades, however, the American model has been introduced. This means big firms now sponsor scientists at times. Those they can use, I mean. As they can't use bad results, scientists are encouraged to find nice results.
What I'm saying is science has been very important for development, but there are a few disadvantages.
THEN AND NOW
Returning to the natural world and fantastic stories. When you hear or read these stories, PC, remember the world of today is very different from back then. The changes nearly happened overnight. I saw part of it happen and adapted, but never forgot it was weird. I also didn't forget about the impact it had. Too keep it short: much was lost and much was gained.
Over here, today, we talk animals. The more you know, the weirder the stories you read may seem. This is a result of specialisation. When you have to get to an opinion about these stories, you are on your own.
When you try to get to an evaluation, you have to remember today is the end of an era and the beginning of a new one. One in which not the natural world, but something else is important. Not good or bad, just the way it is.
ON YOUR OWN
When interested in the natural world, read articles first. This is solid info. But remember it's a part of reality only. It's foremost true at a high level of perception. Not always at the level of individuals. When you can afford it, do a safari every year. Talk to people who know things you don't. Record what you hear and see and forget about preference and things like that.
Humans are brainswashed all the time. The aim is to condition you. One result is the development of individuality will stop. Another is all start to look alike. The last stage of this development is to repeat 'There are no 12-feet tigers' or 'Lions do not attack rhinos'. When you comply, someone will bring you a banana. When you eat it, you will have lost the only thing of value you have. What I'm saying is it is about individuality and (spiritual) development in the end. Same for animals. Captive big cats are infants, whereas their wild relatives are adults.
There are billions of humans. Every individual has to work at some stage. When you work for a big firm and, for instance, do marketing, you would like to see lookalikes all over the globe. The reason is this will facilitate marketing. For big firms, science can be a handy tool as well. But this is not the real object of science. What I'm saying is individuals will be overwhelmed by society sooner or later. This is the result of overwhelming numbers and a system in which everything is expressed in terms of money. Most adapt, but deep down they know life is about something else. The problem they forgot what is was.
When you don't fit in and step aside for a moment, you will quickly notice you are on your own. When interested in the natural world, you need to turn around to take a closer look. When you return, you will notice you have become alienated. You can't talk about the things you know with those close to you. Not really. When you insist, things could take a bad turn.
So you move on. On your own. You will learn about incidents you don't believe at first. When you, after some time, conclude they could have been true, not one will take you seriously. So you keep quiet. You join a forum. You do another safari. In this way, slowly but surely, you will enter a different dimension. Suddenly, you understand those who worked for a big firm or government a century ago. Those who had to visit wild places and decided to leave the world they knew so well, never to return.
My advice is to prevent it, as there's not much left of the natural world. A decent safari will do for now. And when they start about lions and rhinos, you just shrug your shoulders and laugh. You know these stories were true, but there's no way to prove it. Besides, why would you want to convince those with a different opinion? There are other ways to use and work this kind of information. When you keep at it, chances are you will be able to use it one day. And when you talk about it, chances are they would be interested.
What happened is you learned something that can't be teached. People don't want to be convinced. In the end, they know what's true and what not. You just do what you got to do. One day, you will know how to interact about it. Today, you learned lions can hunt rhinos. Rhinos know. That's why they keep their distance. Same for elephants and Cape buffalos.
But these are big animals and they're not going to take it lying down. They take precautions. In spite of that, quite many are killed. Male elephants who lost family members sometimes grew to hate big cats. At times, they even 'hunted' a particular animal. Many fights witnessed a century ago in northern India were not a result of coincidence. A man who studied wolves wrote about confrontations between hunters and hunted. Before anything happened, there was the 'conversation of death'.
The more you read, the more you learn. After reading many books, you would be the last one to describe a particular animal as 'intelligent' or not. Every wild animal that made it to adulthood is experienced and capable of learning. Wild big cats are very inquisitive and observative. They also have very defined ideas about a few things and know about interacting. At times, they enter situations we wouldn't understand. But they do. There always is a reason to engage an animal that can kill you. The only way to find it is to tune in. The best way to fail is to decide for something else.
Read your report about CITES. Interesting and many thanks.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, never did I say that lions preying on rhino never happen, I said that in the cases shown, none can clarify if it was 2 males or not nor the health and status of the rhino.
Also, I'm certainly not ready to give blind faith to old accounts after talking with people who have been living there for their entire lives. Im sure many are honest but these people still need to sell their books or just impress, hence why you can find many accounts that are anything but reliable. Doesn't mean they all are and it doesn't mean that they didn't see what they saw but how something took place is can be far different than how somebody found the scenerio.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Skybed - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 02:59 AM)Pckts Wrote: "In Npvember 1937, during a period when the Old Tukai district was very low in prey, Taberer heard an acute groan. Gone with his land rover, their headlights revealed/showed him a nightmare scene: the poor rhino of the lodge had been litterally throwed by two male lions which, lying on him, "searched through" him with their teeth and claws."
So he came across it, never witnessed it occur?
The crater one in 1892, same thing, he just came across the corpse.
This is also a bit suspect
"Wahlberg has effectively seen an attack of a rhino by several lions. The fight was terrible and the big beast was finally killed by the big cats. A Wahlberg's compatriot ,C.J. Anderson shooted at a rhino: a couple of lions attacked him immediately; despite his serious wounds, he succeeded getting rid of felids, but was killed next morningby the hunter."
So they shot the rhino which was then immediately attacked by lions?
Then the lions didn't succeed in killing it so they shot it the next morning and finished it off?
It's a bit confusing isn't it. At one instance they mentioned the rhino was dead and the next it appears it's alive. And the account of the rhino being thrown by the two lions seems a bit exaggerated.
Anyways these hunters should be shot instead. Shooting a rhino trying to defend itself wat rubbish.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
Also in regards to the white rhino being fed on alive, it appears the horn was removed as well.
http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-world/predator-vs-prey/rare-sighting-lions-filmed-feeding-on-rhino-kill?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=video_lion_rhino
Never a good sign for a rhino, most likely poached then suffering, I think.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Skybed - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 07:01 AM)Pckts Wrote: Also in regards to the white rhino being fed on alive, it appears the horn was removed as well.
Never a good sign for a rhino, most likely poached then suffering, I think.
From the video, I could clearly see the horns of this juvenile still intact. So perhaps it was removed after the lions fed on him.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - sanjay - 10-18-2016
Well, I think If we talk in general scenario, These evidence should be accounted as Lion predation on Rhinos.
To my understanding, Every predator on earth attack and feed on weaker animals, whether he is old, sick, calf or injured. They do this not only with bigger prey but also with their regular or smaller prey. This is law of nature.
Since Lion are capable of bringing down Rhino, elephant and hippo (old, injured, smaller, sick etc) We can say that they prey on them. On the other hand Leopard, Cheetah etc can not attack these weaker giants so we can not account them.
Lion as the social animal can prey largest animal which other carnivore can not. Lions have 2 advantage
1. They are one of the top powerful predator on earth
2. They are social animal
Some predator may outcompete Lion in 1st point mention above with marginal difference but when we add the 2nd point they are way ahead.
Now, similarly some other social animal may have better and more powerful social structure than lion but when we add point 1 they become better predator.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 02:05 PM)Skybed Wrote:(10-18-2016, 07:01 AM)Pckts Wrote: Also in regards to the white rhino being fed on alive, it appears the horn was removed as well.
Never a good sign for a rhino, most likely poached then suffering, I think.
From the video, I could clearly see the horns of this juvenile still intact. So perhaps it was removed after the lions fed on him.
At what part of the video can you see the horns?
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Skybed - 10-18-2016
@Pckts regarding post #38
I guess if u pause the clip at 0.17 u should be able to see the tip of the horn :)
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 05:44 PM)Skybed Wrote: @Pckts regarding post #38
I guess if u pause the clip at 0.17 u should be able to see the tip of the horn :)
I was glad to see that. Much rather a natural death than being poached. Tfs
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 04:33 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: @Pckts I would't say a Cape Buffalo dosen't hold a candle to a black rhino, I have also seen both and some of the biggest cape's I saw in the Mara did look just as massive as a female black rhino.. Aswell as the attitude of them are just beyond anything from any other herbivores, I remember the old bull in Boraas zoo in Sweeden when I worked there he was so aggressive and dominated even female elephants. Returned there in the summmer and they had put him down because he was to aggressive and was a danger for the workers. Still I think rhinos are the tougher prey item, by far.
What did you see in the wild that makes you say that?
With wild capes I saw it was always the same, they are much quicker to run from the jeeps than Zebra, Wildebeest and Gazelle.
The group would always turn back and stare at us after gaining some distance but it was almost frustrating trying to get a close look at the herds until we we're leaving the park and heading to the crater and ran across a massive herd of Capes and finally got a good look at a herd and not just bachelors.
Apparently the Mapogos were Rhino Killers as well..
Pretty Boy Mapogo Male Lion
Raw power of Mapogo Pretty Boy dragging his rhino kill.
Pc unknown
*This image is copyright of its original author
Blast from the Past:
Ulusaba Rangers Diary June 2007
"The first part of this month started with a bang, with the Mapogos stealing most of the lime light. It took only 4, of this incredible coalition of 6 male lions, to kill a sub adult rhino bull.
On the very next day, 1 of the remaining 2 from the coalition killed an adult giraffe cow. He was joined by the other 4, which took only 4 days to finish their great catch.
The 6th male, oldest and largest of the lions, has been with the 2 Othawa lionesses, and on one day we saw him overpower the Othawa lionesses to steal their warthog kill, which happened right in front of our Landrover.
Their seems to be a little more of a split in the coalition of these males as the older Mapogo, not being a brother or cousin of the other 5, is no longer sighted with them. In fact the 5 males were also seen killing the last of the Othawa lioness’ cubs; cubs which the large Mapogo fathered.
Dominate males, which have not mated with certain lionesses, will kill their cubs in order to bring them back into oestrus so that they can then mate with them to produce their own offspring, which will be the strongest genes at the time!"
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
Selati male lions, Othawa pride, lots of cubs...
The Othawa lionesses managed to kill a young white rhinoceros, with the help of two of the Selati male lions. The 8 cubs took delight in feeding on the larger than usual prey. After the initial discovery of the sighting an autopsy was done on the carcass whilst the lions watched from a distance. The horns were removed during the autopsy to be put in safe storage. The fathers of the Othawa lionesses - the Mapogo coalition - often took
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Shardul - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 04:47 AM)Pckts Wrote:(10-18-2016, 04:36 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Here is the clipThat certainly doesn't look like a full grown female rhino at all, nor do we know exactly how many lions were involved since the whole pride is there.
Also, in regards to your statement on Bull Capes being as large as black rhino females, I cannot speak on that, only the young male I saw that was average size for a Black rhino according to our guide and the Bull capes didn't come close to his size. Same is stated from the guide in the video I posted.
Its not the height that's the difference, its the girth. Capes just don't come close to the mass, at least the ones in the Crater and Serengeti. The only ones that are comparable in body dimensions (not girth) where the bachelor males and those guys also seemed out of the realm of possibilities of a couple of lions, which I stated in the images I took.
You know that there is a huge difference between individual sizes in herds, the big males stand out, there is no mistaking them, same with the matriarch or prime females. They just have a size and attitude unseen in the sub adults and the old.
Never once did we come across a herd of Cape or Elephant and not be able to tell who the adults where or the dominate ones, those are the ones I am talking about. "adult, healthy animals"
In case of big cats, the largest prey they can physically bring down are the large bovines and other animals similar to that size. I don't think any big cat is capable of bringing down prey like rhinos and elephants. They are simply too big. By "bringing down", I mean physically wrestling a healthy adult to the ground through sheer strength. Instead, in the rare accounts of lions/tigers killing rhinos/elephants, it simply involves a lot of biting and clawing at the giant, eventually exhausting it out by bleeding through numerous cuts. It is not at all like the way they bring down normal prey. I have seen a documentary where a pride of 20 lions couldn't kill a juvenile elephant simply because they couldn't penetrate its hide. In other situations, they were able to do so and hence were successful in their hunt. This is very similar to the way wolves and wild dogs do it, biting, clawing and disemboweling their prey.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
Pride of Lions Messing with a Big Bull White Rhino
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Polar - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 09:46 PM)Shardul Wrote:(10-18-2016, 04:47 AM)Pckts Wrote:(10-18-2016, 04:36 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Here is the clipThat certainly doesn't look like a full grown female rhino at all, nor do we know exactly how many lions were involved since the whole pride is there.
Also, in regards to your statement on Bull Capes being as large as black rhino females, I cannot speak on that, only the young male I saw that was average size for a Black rhino according to our guide and the Bull capes didn't come close to his size. Same is stated from the guide in the video I posted.
Its not the height that's the difference, its the girth. Capes just don't come close to the mass, at least the ones in the Crater and Serengeti. The only ones that are comparable in body dimensions (not girth) where the bachelor males and those guys also seemed out of the realm of possibilities of a couple of lions, which I stated in the images I took.
You know that there is a huge difference between individual sizes in herds, the big males stand out, there is no mistaking them, same with the matriarch or prime females. They just have a size and attitude unseen in the sub adults and the old.
Never once did we come across a herd of Cape or Elephant and not be able to tell who the adults where or the dominate ones, those are the ones I am talking about. "adult, healthy animals"
In case of big cats, the largest prey they can physically bring down are the large bovines and other animals similar to that size. I don't think any big cat is capable of bringing down prey like rhinos and elephants. They are simply too big. By "bringing down", I mean physically wrestling a healthy adult to the ground through sheer strength. Instead, in the rare accounts of lions/tigers killing rhinos/elephants, it simply involves a lot of biting and clawing at the giant, eventually exhausting it out by bleeding through numerous cuts. It is not at all like the way they bring down normal prey. I have seen a documentary where a pride of 20 lions couldn't kill a juvenile elephant simply because they couldn't penetrate its hide. In other situations, they were able to do so and hence were successful in their hunt. This is very similar to the way wolves and wild dogs do it, biting, clawing and disemboweling their prey.
I actually believe a lion/tiger might actually bring down a fully-sized rhino, and not just with its claws, but also with its sheer strength (in conjunction with the young brown bear vs 900-pound muskox in "Bear Strength" thread).
I have also discussed big cat strength in the "Big Cat Strength" thread, and the common conclusion seems to be that normal-sized lions and tigers can drag excess of 800-kg (shown mainly by video evidence I posted) with ease, with just their jaw power.
Although bring down an adult rhino with the use of forelimbs looks quite impossible (for some, but I believe), note that two large forelimbs of a cat possess more power than just the use of the neck to drag/tug. Peter also regarded, on one of his earlier posts, that there are reliable reports of both lone and grouped lions hunting down adult rhinos, although these hunts, of course, took quite a long time to accomplish but were still done.
More larger and numerous prey back then (without "sport hunters" or environmental destruction) meant more chances for lions/tigers to hunt bigger prey, either alone or in groups. The only exceptions to this rule are exceptionally-sized animals such as adult elephants or freak adult rhinos (of any species).