(02-13-2015, 10:48 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:

(02-13-2015, 06:54 PM)'chaos' Wrote: @Pockets - it's a well known fact both lion and tiger subspecies that dwell in prey rich regions are generally larger than their counterparts in prey challenged regions. Common sense. 


 

You like to use the term "common sense" but you don't provide evidence on whether Crater is has more or less prey density or Compare other Tigers from areas with alleged different prey density.
Just so you know, the serengeti has 1000s of more animals than the crater as well as tons more different species available than the crater. Giraffes, Impala, herda beast etc. All don't exist in the crater, even warthog was only seen recently. And many other herbivores, as well. What the crater does have is a constant # of animals throughout the year, meaning, no migratory animals.
But that just means they have the same animals year round, not more #'s aka Prey Density.
The serengeti is one of the most prey abundant places around and the Prime territory holding prides will have access to all kinds of prey year round and a high variety.
And since there is only one verified weight of 146kg for a Male Lion (injured yes) but still not skinny by any means, it proves that the male at least is not the 212kg average claimed. Since all other averages are based off a faulty chest size and not weights they are far from verified. You certainly would not allow the weight of 272kg+ to be allowed if they were simply estimated off body length or chest size, would you?

@Waverider
In regards to Kaziranga tigers, you are right they have not been measured. But Assam Tigers have a few individuals who have been, and according to them, they have the largest skulls on average, and their body weight was in the 220kg range I believe. I don't know about what region in assam they were from, but Kaziranga is in assam. Lets also look at Eye Witness accounts saying that they are the largest tigers they have ever seen. Then lastly, prey density,
Kaziranga is the Only place in India with Rhino, Elephant, Water Buffalo and all the other species of prey in India for a tiger. It also has the highest Tiger Density as well, so using those proven facts, the only way a Tiger density that high is sustained, is plenty of prey, the habitat is lush, deep grass and tough treking. A animal must swim miles, hunt through elephant grass and deep wet marsh lands to make kills. All would contribute to growth in muscles and overall weight.
Lets compare these factors to the Crater,
No higher prey density than else where, terrain is similar to any where else, lion density is very low there, (growing recently) but still not higher than other areas, Coalitions are much more individuals meaning more mouth's to feed, lions as recently as 30 years ago came from the Serengeti. So its not like Kaziranga where they have had 100s of years of uninterrupted evolutionary time, they have only recently begun to live there again in substantial #s and its not like they could have adapted specific morphological traits in that time frame. So, by no means is 212kg an unheard of # for wild lions, but it certainly is not backed by evidence that those weights are the average for male lions in the crater. I have also seen no eye witness accounts saying they are any larger than any other Lions from elsewhere maybe somebody here would like to ask a few lion experts on FB?


"The 212 kg figure is an educated estimate, but just an estimate. Because it refers to an average weight of a sample it has more validity then if it would refer to any particular individual. Assuming it were correct, in the sample of N=6 individuals averaging 212 kg I would definitely expect a weight range of 200-225 kg as a minimum, more likely 195-230 kg as I conservatively predicted (actual prediction 195-243 kg likely optimistic for 6 individuals only).

I just remind that the sample of N=7 adult male tigers from Chitawan NP average 235 kg kg with a range of 200-261 kg"

Also the real average of Chitwan would be 200kg-272kg+ but thats a different discussion.

 

 

(02-15-2015, 07:52 PM)'chaos' Wrote:

(02-14-2015, 12:51 AM)'Amnon242' Wrote: Young Tom. 146 kg crater lion.

http://www.panthera.org/node/3388


 

Young Tom is not a crater lion. He's actually from the Ngoragora conservation area.

 

 

(02-15-2015, 11:03 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: I'm with @Pckts on that the prey densety in seriengeti are higher, but that means more prey to choose from, and large prey are becomes less nessasery, and insted of hunting buffalo, they might think wildebeest, warthog, waterbuck and zebra, while crater lions have much buffalo and less other prey and might hunt buffalo more because they are forced to do so.

 

(02-15-2015, 11:03 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: I see also a lot of discussions here about the serengeti and crater lions, but I just saw resently a large male lion from serengeti called blondie (?) wheing 230 kg, so both populations are impressive in therms of weight actually.

 

(02-15-2015, 11:44 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Amnon242 

no I did not say that all lions where that big, but mainly that lions in serengeti can grow huge aswell. 

 

(02-16-2015, 03:29 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: even though the Crater lions are big, I think the male lions in the Okavango delta( espessialy duba plains) are bigger than crater lions, lionesses there are described as being almost as big as male lions elswhere in africa, and still the males are massive in comparison! 

 

(02-16-2015, 03:33 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:

(02-16-2015, 03:29 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: even though the Crater lions are big, I think the male lions in the Okavango delta( espessialy duba plains) are bigger than crater lions, lionesses there are described as being almost as big as male lions elswhere in africa, and still the males are massive in comparison! 


 

These lions are the bulked up version of the Kruger lions, that's why it is bigger than the bulked up version of the Serengeti lions.