(07-30-2019, 04:28 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(07-29-2019, 10:17 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Well, I saw the video and I can say that is a good one, not exceptional but the information that it shares is accurate.

There are only two things that I consider an error:

1. The size that they quote is the same old "mantra" that still continue even in scientific books. So is probably not her fauld or that of the video editors. In fact, like @peter mentions, in the book "The Way of the Tiger" Dr Karanth mentions exactly the same figures of this video (3.9 meters long and up to 300 kg). In the latest book "Wild Cats of the World" of Dr Luke Hunter, he STILL quote that the head-body length of tigers is of 300 cm! So this is something that we most fight during much more time.

2. The video says that male tigers may kill the cubs to make tigresses interested in mate again, but that is a terrible confusion. Male tigers are good fathers, some of them taking care of they cubs at a great level than the social lion. Now, the tigers that kill the cubs are the new and unrelated males, so they should be very specific in that point. Interesting is to say that the old believe that tigresses do not allow males near the cubs at the first days of life is incorrect, as Dr Chundawat observed how "Hairyfoot" shared time with his cubs of only a few weeks old.

I think that all the other information is correct, on average. The case of the "subspecies" I think that is still controversial and is far from be settle, so they are just quoting the last aggremient of the IUCN, although is still not fully resolve.

Finally, about the tiger endurance, all the cats have relatively bad stamina, that is for sure. So what about tigers? Well, they are predators that evolved in close habitats and are not designed for long runs but for short rushes and explosive direct attacks. However, they are also very well adapted to they environment and is a fact that tigers swim huge distances without been tired, even taking prey with them! In fact, the case of the tiger "Genghis" in Ranthambore is very impresive as this male hunted like a cheetah, runing directly to the sambar deers and even killing and draging the large deers in the water. Valmik Thapar says in his book "Tiger: the ultimate guide" that tigers can reach up to sixty miles per hour, altough we know that is for short distances. This means that after the cheetah and probably the puma, tigers are the fastest cats on Earth.

Tigers have good endurance and normally travel big distances. In fact, Dr Chundawat (2018) and Dr McDougal (1977) go against that idea that tigers, specially males, are lazy animals. They found that they constantly travel very big distances to cover they entire territory. So for a male tiger, resting the 20 hours at day that some books quote is not an option, as they need to patrol the entire area, make marks, hunt for them and visit (if posible) they females. Been a male tigers is not an easy task!

I think, that in this there are many opinions, for me that video is pretty much same as rubbish for the reasons, which I have mentioned before. If someone doesn´t have interest to read my earlier comments, mainly the way how things are presented making it easy to mix up biggest possibles and averages in confusing way etc., if not paying attention.

But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour. Of course if we take short enough distance, when big cats are in top speed after first speedup.... let´s say 10 meters, maybe lions, leopards and some others would go also 60 miles per hour and cheetah 80 miles per hour.... if talking about peaks what comes to speed.

Speed discussion is one of the controversial ones and different sources give a bit different kind of speeds. But I don´t think, that Thapar has said in his ultimate guide more than his guess about this matter. Or is there some sources about it, that how that speed was calculated? How long time or distance tiger would be able to run that fast? That would be some part of run after some speedup first as mentioned before, or? But also as said, then it should be compared in same way when looking at other big cats, not to commonly told speeds, which most probably are average speeds from longer distance, not just peak in the middle of the run.

But if there is more information about it, that to what that claim is based, it would be interesting to see.

(07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour.

(07-30-2019, 09:00 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour.

As I say, tigers are not build for speed but for short rushes and explosive attacks. However, Valmik Thapar observed the hunting technique of the tiger "Genghis" were he just run directly to the deers and drived them to the water. I still don't have the book "Tiger, portrait of a predator" (still on its way to me), so I don't have the full details of his observations of this male tiger, but probably it was in those incredible fast rushes where he got the calculation of the 60 mph (96.6 kph)! I think that the case is an exception to the rule, as the maximum speed that I know for tigers is about 60 kph, which is about the same than lions. Jaguars, as far I know, had not been measured in its speed.

(07-30-2019, 09:11 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 09:00 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 05:02 AM)Shadow Wrote: But I would love to see how Thapar justifies that claim about 60 miles per hour.

As I say, tigers are not build for speed but for short rushes and explosive attacks. However, Valmik Thapar observed the hunting technique of the tiger "Genghis" were he just run directly to the deers and drived them to the water. I still don't have the book "Tiger, portrait of a predator" (still on its way to me), so I don't have the full details of his observations of this male tiger, but probably it was in those incredible fast rushes where he got the calculation of the 60 mph (96.6 kph)! I think that the case is an exception to the rule, as the maximum speed that I know for tigers is about 60 kph, which is about the same than lions. Jaguars, as far I know, had not been measured in its speed.

I have to say, that in this Thapar isn´t convincing. When looking at several studies about cheetah and knowing how fast it is compared to other big cats, in every way,  that 60 mph doesn´t seem to be realistic. Might be wild guess in excitement when seeing a tiger hunting. I am sure, that there is no calculations, because when cheetah peaks in 59-64 mph depending about terrain and theoretical speed is 70-75 mph, that 60 mph for tiger, just not realistic. Slower animal just won´t peak in same speed as the fastest there is. But I can understand, that it can look like very fast, when seeing something fast to happen and getting excited. 

But knowing, that lionesses and tigresses are approximately equal and both are like turtles, when comparing to cheetahs

(07-30-2019, 09:15 AM)Shadow Wrote: Maybe there has been some error when writing that book and 60 kph has been printed as 60 mph.

(07-30-2019, 09:58 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: As I said, wait to get the book and then I will speak, for the moment the speed may be correct (but based in a very rare case), or maybe it was a typo in the book. I will not speak anymore until I have the information with me about the case.

Also, like I said before, as far I remember the maximum speed that I know is about 60 kph for lions and tigers. But Mr Bahavan Antel (from T.I.G.E.R.) once said that he saw tigers runing up to 80 kph. Honestly I don't know how reliable is that guy, but I think is good to share that information, just in case.

(07-30-2019, 09:48 AM)Spalea Wrote: @GuateGojira : Schaller compared the lion's and tiger's speed. He told that if any lion was able to outrun any tiger on 100 meters, no one lion could compete with a tiger on the first 20 meters. I see in this comparaison that tiger was more an ambush predator on very short distances than lion. And in my mind, it is what reflects the difference of hunting inside two different biotops: open savannah for the lion, covered and dense jungle for the tiger.

The tiger would be the "internal combustion engine" feline. But otherwise, as @Shadow says, we cannot generalize and compare the tiger's speed with the cheetah's speed. The adrenalin rush could make believe that if it is continued the tiger could compete with a cheetah, but it's impossible. We are speaking about two different things: brutal attack over a few meters (tiger) and maximal speed reached after a full short but complete acceleration (cheetah). If I want to extrapolate in the extreme can we compare the speed of a professionnal boxer's fist that is going to hit the opponent's face with the 100 meters sprinter's speed ?

But I could be agree with you to state that perhaps among felines the tiger's adrenalin rush is unequalled. Although the lion's is very violent as well as the leopard's and jaguar's.

(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 09:48 AM)Spalea Wrote: @GuateGojira : Schaller compared the lion's and tiger's speed. He told that if any lion was able to outrun any tiger on 100 meters, no one lion could compete with a tiger on the first 20 meters. I see in this comparaison that tiger was more an ambush predator on very short distances than lion. And in my mind, it is what reflects the difference of hunting inside two different biotops: open savannah for the lion, covered and dense jungle for the tiger.

The tiger would be the "internal combustion engine" feline. But otherwise, as @Shadow says, we cannot generalize and compare the tiger's speed with the cheetah's speed. The adrenalin rush could make believe that if it is continued the tiger could compete with a cheetah, but it's impossible. We are speaking about two different things: brutal attack over a few meters (tiger) and maximal speed reached after a full short but complete acceleration (cheetah). If I want to extrapolate in the extreme can we compare the speed of a professionnal boxer's fist that is going to hit the opponent's face with the 100 meters sprinter's speed ?

But I could be agree with you to state that perhaps among felines the tiger's adrenalin rush is unequalled. Although the lion's is very violent as well as the leopard's and jaguar's.

@Spalea, when we are talking about running speed, if you check some studies about the subject, cheetahs have peaked on flat terrain at 64 mph and covered terrain 59 mph. 100 meter world record for cheetahs is, as far as I know 5.95 seconds. These figures can be checked. Also acceleration of cheetah is described to be incredible fast.

Quote: "We recorded some of the highest measured values for lateral and forward acceleration, deceleration and body-mass-specific power for any terrestrial mammal."

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12295

Quote: "A cheetah accelerates very quickly, allowing it to overtake prey at close range." 

Another: "In addition to speed, a cheetah attains high acceleration. It can reach a speed of 47 mph (75 km/hr) in two seconds, or go from zero to 60 mph in 3 seconds and three strides. A cheetah accelerates as fast as one of the world's most powerful sports cars."

One more: "Scientists calculate a cheetah's top speed is 75 mph, but the fastest recorded speed is somewhat slower."

Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/how-fast-can-a-cheetah-run-4587031

Also read this to find out where figures 59 and 64 mph are from.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/we-finally-have-an-accurate-measurement-of-a-cheetahs-t-512903920

So even though this is off topic in this thread, I just point out, that if Thapar really says, that tigers could run at peaks 60 mph, he would actually claim that tiger would be as fast runner as cheetah in short distances or even faster depending about terrain. And that is something, what I have never seen suggested anywhere before. What comes to cheetahs, there is a lot of information. What comes to tigers and lions, there are maybe some contradictions depending about source, but none has never suggested, that they would be close to cheetahs. And when looking at hunting videos of these animals, it´s quite easy to see why not. No matter are we talking about first 20 meters, 100 meters or 400 meters.

And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that :) But we will know, what he claims and with what proof/reasoning soon.

(07-30-2019, 11:19 AM)RakeshMondal Wrote: Mr. Antle did not merely say that the tigers can reach 80 kph. But he actually did speed tests of the animals. Mainly the tigresses were the fastest.

Tiger reached 39 mph.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tzSvoItTc

Those weren't estimates, Dr. Antle actually speed tested the animals.

(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that

(08-01-2019, 10:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that

Wow! Why I don't see the wave of critics about this statement? When I mentioned my point of view of Sankhala (which I proved extensively) I was almoust banned from this place and even @peter was included, but now that someone mention something negative about Thapar there is only silence, the same that happened with Dr Karanth before. Double standards?

Valmik Thapar is by far the man with more experience with tigers at this day, and at this moment he have very good backup for each one of his claims. About the speed issue, I think that probably it was a typo, as there is no coincidence that the maximum speed that I know is exactly the same the quote which is "60", but instead of miles it should be km, that is all.

I will get the book of Thapar "Tiger portrait of a predator" which includes the history of Genghis, I will see if he mention any speed measurement or maybe the figure of 60 kph came from the observations of others. I have saw videos of Genghis running and it is an explosive rush that last much more than the normal attack of any other tiger that I had saw. In fact, it is more impresive than the running of the tigress of Mr Antle in the video.

(08-01-2019, 10:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(07-30-2019, 11:33 AM)Shadow Wrote: And in this area I don´t think, that Thapar is an expert and his competence can and should be questioned if he alone claims something like that

Wow! Why I don't see the wave of critics about this statement? When I mentioned my point of view of Sankhala (which I proved extensively) I was almoust banned from this place and even @peter was included, but now that someone mention something negative about Thapar there is only silence, the same that happened with Dr Karanth before. Double standards?

Valmik Thapar is by far the man with more experience with tigers at this day, and at this moment he have very good backup for each one of his claims. About the speed issue, I think that probably it was a typo, as there is no coincidence that the maximum speed that I know is exactly the same the quote which is "60", but instead of miles it should be km, that is all.

I will get the book of Thapar "Tiger portrait of a predator" which includes the history of Genghis, I will see if he mention any speed measurement or maybe the figure of 60 kph came from the observations of others. I have saw videos of Genghis running and it is an explosive rush that last much more than the normal attack of any other tiger that I had saw. In fact, it is more impresive than the running of the tigress of Mr Antle in the video.