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+---- Thread: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences (/topic-comparing-cats-a-discussion-of-similarities-differences)
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Pckts - 08-13-2021
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - tigerluver - 08-31-2021
@Betty, attached is the paper you requested!
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Richardrli - 08-31-2021
I'm interested in the different feeding habits of the Pantherine cats. We know that tigers almost always consume the rear hindquarters of their prey and jaguars eat the chest and neck of their prey but what about for leopards and lions? What are their preferences? The snow leopard seems similar to the jaguar in that it predominantly eat the chest region.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Luipaard - 12-02-2021
I created a graph demonstrating the overlap in skull length and width between the largest male leopards and small (adult) lionesses. All the leopard skulls originated from Iran and Central Africa.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sources of leopard skull data: https://imgur.com/a/aKDEzY8
Sources of lion skull data: https://imgur.com/a/t8POFJa
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Charger01 - 12-10-2021
I was able to ask a few questions to a very knowledgeable researcher about modern and extinct felids. This is what he told me -
I've taken the time to take a look at my database provided by multiple zoological collections and this is what I found:
1. Scapula
In case of the scapula, also known as the shoulder bone, my database leans towards african lions to have larger scapula's than other Panthera cats but the difference is very limited and can (will) come down to the individuals in question.
2. Forelimb bones and musculature
The ranking as per the forelimb bones:
1. Panthera onca
2. Panthera spelaea
3. Neofelis
4. Panthera tigris
5. Panthera leo
The difference between Panthera onca and the cave lion was limited, and the former showed slightly more developed muscle attachment. The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount.
3. Ribcage width
Panthera onca had the widest ribcage followed by Panthera spelaea. Among the other three, tigers had the widest ribcages in-flesh but the difference was very small when comparing the skeletons themselves.
4. Hindlimb bones and musculature
The difference between hindlimb robusticity was barely noticeable between the 5 species.
Bengal tigers showed slightly bulkier builds than siberian tigers but they did not have more robust bones.
About the sample sizes, I am not allowed to share the exact numbers but I can tell you that all of them combined into one would normally result into over 60 specimens.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - LandSeaLion - 12-10-2021
(12-10-2021, 09:12 AM)Khan85 Wrote: 1. ScapulaI’m not surprised by jaguars topping the list. It is interesting that cave lions appear to have been quite physically similar.
In case of the scapula, also known as the shoulder bone, my database leans towards african lions to have larger scapula's than other Panthera cats but the difference is very limited and can (will) come down to the individuals in question.
2. Forelimb bones and musculature
The ranking as per the forelimb bones:
1. Panthera onca
2. Panthera spelaea
3. Neofelis
4. Panthera tigris
5. Panthera leo
The difference between Panthera onca and the cave lion was limited, and the former showed slightly more developed muscle attachment. The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount.
Can you please elaborate on this bit a little more? Do you mean limited difference in bone structure, but a more significant difference in musculature?
Quote:The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount
These observations gel with my intuition though. It has always seemed to me that (modern) lions have more robust neck and shoulders, but tigers have bulkier forelimbs.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Charger01 - 12-10-2021
(12-10-2021, 04:04 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:(12-10-2021, 09:12 AM)Khan85 Wrote: 1. ScapulaI’m not surprised by jaguars topping the list. It is interesting that cave lions appear to have been quite physically similar.
In case of the scapula, also known as the shoulder bone, my database leans towards african lions to have larger scapula's than other Panthera cats but the difference is very limited and can (will) come down to the individuals in question.
2. Forelimb bones and musculature
The ranking as per the forelimb bones:
1. Panthera onca
2. Panthera spelaea
3. Neofelis
4. Panthera tigris
5. Panthera leo
The difference between Panthera onca and the cave lion was limited, and the former showed slightly more developed muscle attachment. The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount.
Can you please elaborate on this bit a little more? Do you mean limited difference in bone structure, but a more significant difference in musculature?
Quote:The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount
These observations gel with my intuition though. It has always seemed to me that (modern) lions have more robust neck and shoulders, but tigers have bulkier forelimbs.
Yes, cave lions were close behind jaguars. Important thing here is that the sample of cave lions were females only, and males might even surpass the jaguars.
Quote:Can you please elaborate on this bit a little more? Do you mean limited difference in bone structure, but a more significant difference in musculature?
Exactly, difference in bones was limited but significant in musculature.
From some data that I have seen regarding lion and tiger neck circumference, it appears tigers do have bigger necks (avg and max).
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - LandSeaLion - 12-11-2021
(12-10-2021, 06:35 PM)Khan85 Wrote:(12-10-2021, 04:04 PM)LandSeaLion Wrote:(12-10-2021, 09:12 AM)Khan85 Wrote: 1. ScapulaI’m not surprised by jaguars topping the list. It is interesting that cave lions appear to have been quite physically similar.
In case of the scapula, also known as the shoulder bone, my database leans towards african lions to have larger scapula's than other Panthera cats but the difference is very limited and can (will) come down to the individuals in question.
2. Forelimb bones and musculature
The ranking as per the forelimb bones:
1. Panthera onca
2. Panthera spelaea
3. Neofelis
4. Panthera tigris
5. Panthera leo
The difference between Panthera onca and the cave lion was limited, and the former showed slightly more developed muscle attachment. The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount.
Can you please elaborate on this bit a little more? Do you mean limited difference in bone structure, but a more significant difference in musculature?
Quote:The difference in between Panthera tigris and Panthera leo was very little, but the former had muscle attachments that exceeded the latter by a sizeable amount
These observations gel with my intuition though. It has always seemed to me that (modern) lions have more robust neck and shoulders, but tigers have bulkier forelimbs.
Yes, cave lions were close behind jaguars. Important thing here is that the sample of cave lions were females only, and males might even surpass the jaguars.
Quote:Can you please elaborate on this bit a little more? Do you mean limited difference in bone structure, but a more significant difference in musculature?
Exactly, difference in bones was limited but significant in musculature.
From some data that I have seen regarding lion and tiger neck circumference, it appears tigers do have bigger necks (avg and max).
Oh that’s interesting. My intuition about the necks was just based on visual rather than scientific evidence (I like to draw big cats), and references like Jun’s anatomy. There’d certainly be a lot of individual variation though.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Hello - 12-11-2021
Lions have proportionately larger chests, shoulders, heads, necks and taller at shoulders. While tigers have forearms, biceps, triceps, hindquarters, abdominals and longer.
A lion of average build with large and pronounced shoulders in relation to his body.
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://www.flickr.com/photos/avatar1/28046642438/
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Sully - 12-14-2021
From:
Genome-wide signatures of complex introgression and adaptive evolution in the big cats
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fig. 1 Evolutionary history of the great cats.
(A) Species tree of the genus Panthera estimated from genome-wide data. All five extant species are represented as follows: lion (Panthera leo), leopard (P. pardus), jaguar (Panthera onca), snow leopard (Panthera uncia), and tiger (Panthera tigris). Numbers above branches indicate the estimated age [in million years ago (Ma)] of the adjacent node, averaged across all genomic windows (100-kb window size, 100-kb steps) that conform to the species tree (95% highest posterior density interval below the respective branch). Colored rectangles on terminal branches indicate phenotypic categories (defined below the tree; see Fig. 3B for more details) affected by species-specific episodes of positive selection. (B) PSMC plot depicting the demographic history of the five Panthera species inferred from genomic data. © Genealogical discordance across the genome of Panthera cats, demonstrated by a sliding window analysis (500-kb window size, 100-kb steps) of a full-genome alignment mapped to domestic cat chromosomes (gray lines at the bottom). The y axis indicates the percentage of overlapping windows within a given interval that conform to (blue) or reject (red) the species tree. Photo credits: D. Kantek (jaguar); C. Sperka (others).
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Styx38 - 12-17-2021
Leopard vs. Tiger range in Primorsky Krai.
Leopard range in the past.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Hebblewhite, Mark, et al. "Predicting potential habitat and population size for reintroduction of the Far Eastern leopards in the Russian Far East." Biological Conservation 144.10 (2011): 2403-2413
Leopard range as of present
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source: Feng, Limin, et al. "Collaboration brings hope for the last Amur leopards." Cat News 65 (2017): 20.
Tiger range in the 1990s. The area in red is Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Miquelle, Dale G., et al. "Hierarchical spatial analysis of Amur tiger relationships to habitat and prey." Riding the Tiger: tiger conservation in human-dominated landscapes. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK (1999): 71-99.
Tiger range as of present.
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source: https://russia.wcs.org/en-us/Wildlife/Amur-Tigers/Amur-Tiger-Ecology.aspx
As can be seen, Leopards live mainly in Southwest Primorsky Krai, while Tigers are found throughout the region.
"Collect the best data for use in conservation plans for Amur tigers and Far Eastern leopards. This includes conducting scientific field research on Amur tigers, both in the central part of their range in SABZ and at the southern edge of tiger habitat in Southwest Primorsky Krai, and conducting research on Far Eastern leopards in Southwest Primorsky Krai."
source: https://conservewildcats.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/WildCats/ProjectReports/Russia/WCS_AmurTigersandFarEasternLeopards_final_report2010.pdf
For example, Leopards do not live in Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik.
'The Amur leopard is also not present in Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik, and so the estimate of carrying capacity using data from Miquelle et al. (1999) may more closely approximate the actual carrying capacity in the EWM.'
source: Zhang, Changzhi, Minghai Zhang, and Philip Stott. "Does prey density limit Amur tiger Panthera tigris altaica recovery in northeastern China?." Wildlife Biology 19.4 (2013): 452-461.
Tigers live with other predators.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Miquelle, DALE G., et al. "Food habits of Amur tigers in Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik and the Russian Far East, and implications for conservation." Journal of Wildlife Research 1.2 (1996): 138-147.
Here is the distribution of Tiger prey.
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^ As can be noted, Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik is considered the southernmost extent range of Manchurian Moose, while the place is considered the northernmost extent of Sika Deer. This is why Sika Deer are main prey for both Tigers and Leopards in Southwest Primorsky Krai., while Moose make up a low amount of Tiger prey in Sikhote-Alin.
source: Miquelle, Dale G., et al. "Hierarchical spatial analysis of Amur tiger relationships to habitat and prey." Riding the Tiger: tiger conservation in human-dominated landscapes. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK (1999): 71-99.
As we can see, Manchurian Moose are in areas where Leopards are not present.
This means that we will never get to see Leopard-Moose interaction since they will never meet.
@
A lot of uninformed people theorized that either the Moose was too big for the Leopard, or the Leopard was going for smaller prey in Tiger habitat.
Here are some examples.
https://www.quora.com/Do-Amur-leopards-prey-on-moose
https://carnivora.net/cougar-v-leopard-t3069-s420.html#p121520
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Styx38 - 12-20-2021
@
While I thought fans made poor comments, I also found out that even researchers can make odd comments.
For example, this researcher made an assumption that a Leopard would not go after large Manchurian Wapiti/Elk or Red Deer because they did not appear in the Leopard's diet in any of the studies shown.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Of course, when it comes to Tigers not going for Elk, only then does this guy acknowledge the relatively low abundance of Elk in these areas.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Gardener, Billy Jai. Habitat Modelling of the Amur Leopard and Siberian Tiger for Future Reintroduction: Using Conservation Priority Setting, Ecological Corridors and Carrying Capacities. Diss. Bangor University (United Kingdom), 2020.
Here is one of the studies that he cited for Tiger and Leopard diet in Northeastern China.
As can be seen Red Deer/Wapiti/Elk cannot be seen occurring in either predator's diet.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Yang, Haitao, et al. "Seasonal food habits and prey selection of Amur tigers and Amur leopards in Northeast China." Scientific reports 8.1 (2018): 1-9.
The reason why is that the Wapiti/Red Deer is either locally extinct or at a very low abundance in these areas.
If you get confused between Wapiti, Elk or Red Deer then just remember that these are different names for the species known as Cervus elaphus xanthopygus
Red Deer is locally extinct in Southwest Primorsky Krai since the 1990s.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Matiukhina, Dina. "Resource partitioning and density drivers of two endangered large felids: Amur tiger (Panthera tigris altaica) and Amur leopard (Panthera pardus orientalis) in the Russian Far East." (2020).
Red Deer is also absent in Hunchun National Nature Reserve, China.
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source: Dou, Hailong, et al. "Prey selection of Amur tigers in relation to the spatiotemporal overlap with prey across the Sino–Russian border." Wildlife Biology 2019.1 (2019): 1-11.
So, as we can see Leopards will not go for the Elk because the animal is either extirpated or extinct in their current range.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Styx38 - 01-23-2022
The Leopard is not the only Felid to hoist a kill up a tree.
Lynx
Here are some Roe Deer carcasses that were cached by an Eurasian Lynx in a tree.
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*This image is copyright of its original author
Explanation:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Červený, Jaroslav, and Henryk Okarma. "Caching prey in trees by Eurasian lynx." Acta Theriologica 47.4 (2002): 505-508.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225843407_Caching_prey_in_trees_by_Eurasian_lynx
Sunda Clouded Leopard
Here is a case of a Clouded Leopard carrying a Bearded Pig up to the first storey of an observation tower.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Mohamed, A. Z. L. A. N., H. I. R. O. M. I. T. S. U. Samejima, and A. N. D. R. E. A. S. Wilting. "Records of five Bornean cat species from Deramakot Forest Reserve in Sabah, Malaysia." Cat news 51 (2009): 12-15.
Caracal
Here is a case of a Caracal caching a kill in a tree.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: The Mammals of the Southern African Sub-region By J. D. Skinner, Christian T. Chimimba · 2005
Geoffroy's Cat
Geoffroy's Cat have been observed to hoist their kills up trees, with some successful attempts at carrying up Hare Carcasses, and a failed attempt at carrying up a Seriema Bird up the tree.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Wild Cats of the World By Luke Hunter · 2015
Here is a detailed description of the Geoffroy Cat failing to hoist a Seriema kill up a tree.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Yanosky, A. A., & Mercolli, C. (1994). Notes on the Ecology of Felis geoffroyi in Northeastern Argentina. The American Midland Naturalist, 132(1), 202–204. https://doi.org/10.2307/2426215
While some Felids have been documented to cache their kills in trees, the Leopard may still have the best feat since they are documented to hoist animals up to at least 1.4x their size, or 100+ kg carcasses.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Pckts - 01-24-2022
Tank and Binta, both are the same age and abandoned as cubs.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Sully - 01-26-2022
Homotherium vs smilodon by @paleosculpts on twitter
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*This image is copyright of its original author