(11-01-2020, 03:06 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: UPDATED MEASUREMENTS OF 3 OF THE PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUARS CAPTURED BY THE MASTER PETER CRAWSHAW.

@peter

As you requested on your post #403 for the other measurements of the 3 Porto Primavera jaguars in order to compare them with other big cats I managed to ask Peter Crawshaw more measurements of those 3 animals but Crawshaw told me that he didn't take the forearm measurements of those Porto Primavera jaguars.

But he provided me others.


NOTE: Before getting to the measurements there's a clarification to make.

Pita was captured twice and he's also that 122 kg Porto Primavera male Jaguar that aired on TV news in 1994 that I've posted here on this thread and in the Big Cat news thread, before I found out I showed the photo and the news video to Peter Crawshaw himself and he told me that male is Pita, then he checked his original archive and it was on his first capture, Crawshaw didn't even know that his capture of the male jaguar aired on TV here in Brazil in the 90's. Pita's second capture weighed 130 kg captured with Denis Sana and Antonio Platero.


Pita male.

*This image is copyright of its original author

News video of Pita males first capture by Peter Crawshaw and his team that aired here in Brazil in 1994.

With that being said lets head to the measurements method used by Crawshaw.

---

MEASUREMENTS METHOD

Straight Line, never following the curves of the body.

Body length: from the tip of the nostril untill the base of the tail

Tail length: measured separately.

---

PETER CRAWSHAW TALKS ABOUT THE OVER THE CURVES MEASUREMENT METHOD.

I already had a previous discussion with him on the jaguar measurement method I once again brought up the topic but this time I mentioned that most of people take the over the curves measure method like onçafari and others.

Here's what he told me about this method.

By Crawshaw's word: ''As I said before, you don't use measuring an animal "over the curves",  that's totally wrong. In this way, the person is deliberately increasing the size of the animal.''

---

CHEST CIRCUMFERENCE MEASUREMENT METHOD.

As this was also one of @peter requests on his post #403 I took advantage and managed to ask Peter Crashaw this one too.

My question was in case the animal is too large and heavy does he take the chest circumference measure by taking one side measurement of the chest and multiply it by 2 ??

Here's what he said.

by Crawshaw's words: ''No, you have to lift the body of the animal ( even if a large one ) and pass the tape measure under it in order to get the complete measurement.''

---

3 PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUAR'S MEASUREMENTS.

NOTE: After he checked his original archive he told me Pita male's measurements bellow was from his first capture when he weighed 122 kg, keep in mind his second capture he weighed 130 kg.

Measurement method: Straight Line.


1 - Suely female 77 kg :

Head girth 62.0 cm.

Neck girth 53.5 cm.

Thorax girth 96 cm.

Shoulder height 78.0 cm.

Body length 129.0 cm.

Tail length 61 cm.

Full Body length 190 cm.

---

2 - Zezão melanistic male 110 kg :

Head girth 70.5 cm.

Neck girth 58.5 cm.

Thorax girth 99 cm.

Shoulder height 80.0 cm.

Body length 143.0 cm.

Tail length 67 cm.

Full Body length 210 cm.

---

3 - Pita male 122 kg :

Head girth 71.0 cm.

Neck girth 70.0 cm.

Thorax girth 114 cm.

Shoulder height 70.0 cm.

Body length 151.0 cm.

Tail length 56 cm.

Full Body length 207 cm.

---

Moment Crawshaw sent me the Head and Neck girth of the 3.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Comparisons:

Just like I told to Crawshaw when I saw Pita neck's girth its impressive how these animals vary on the measurements department while some might be thicker and greater in one area others could be thicker and greater on other areas of the body like in this case Pita being thicker than Joker on the neck girth.

It seems like I got a new record breaker on the jaguar's neck girth department on my books so far.

Pita got a whooping 70.0 cm on neck girth.

Pita male's neck is 4 cm thicker than Joker's 66 cm neck and Pita's neck surpasses even Almeida's largest neck girth male measurement of 68.5 cm.

Pita is also very low on the shoulders compared to 110 kg melanistic male Zezão and 77 kg female Suely, he is 10 cm lower on the shoulders compared to Zezão.

By his measurements and by what Crawshaw told me about Pita, I can say Pita was definitely a low to the ground stocky beast. A true representative of the jaguar species.

---

Peter Crawshaw and Pita male in 1994.

*This image is copyright of its original author

(11-02-2020, 02:59 PM)peter Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 03:06 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: UPDATED MEASUREMENTS OF 3 OF THE PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUARS CAPTURED BY THE MASTER PETER CRAWSHAW.

@peter

As you requested on your post #403 for the other measurements of the 3 Porto Primavera jaguars in order to compare them with other big cats I managed to ask Peter Crawshaw more measurements of those 3 animals but Crawshaw told me that he didn't take the forearm measurements of those Porto Primavera jaguars.

But he provided me others.


NOTE: Before getting to the measurements there's a clarification to make.

Pita was captured twice and he's also that 122 kg Porto Primavera male Jaguar that aired on TV news in 1994 that I've posted here on this thread and in the Big Cat news thread, before I found out I showed the photo and the news video to Peter Crawshaw himself and he told me that male is Pita, then he checked his original archive and it was on his first capture, Crawshaw didn't even know that his capture of the male jaguar aired on TV here in Brazil in the 90's. Pita's second capture weighed 130 kg captured with Denis Sana and Antonio Platero.


Pita male.

*This image is copyright of its original author

News video of Pita males first capture by Peter Crawshaw and his team that aired here in Brazil in 1994.

With that being said lets head to the measurements method used by Crawshaw.

---

MEASUREMENTS METHOD

Straight Line, never following the curves of the body.

Body length: from the tip of the nostril untill the base of the tail

Tail length: measured separately.

---

PETER CRAWSHAW TALKS ABOUT THE OVER THE CURVES MEASUREMENT METHOD.

I already had a previous discussion with him on the jaguar measurement method I once again brought up the topic but this time I mentioned that most of people take the over the curves measure method like onçafari and others.

Here's what he told me about this method.

By Crawshaw's word: ''As I said before, you don't use measuring an animal "over the curves",  that's totally wrong. In this way, the person is deliberately increasing the size of the animal.''

---

CHEST CIRCUMFERENCE MEASUREMENT METHOD.

As this was also one of @peter requests on his post #403 I took advantage and managed to ask Peter Crashaw this one too.

My question was in case the animal is too large and heavy does he take the chest circumference measure by taking one side measurement of the chest and multiply it by 2 ??

Here's what he said.

by Crawshaw's words: ''No, you have to lift the body of the animal ( even if a large one ) and pass the tape measure under it in order to get the complete measurement.''

---

3 PORTO PRIMAVERA JAGUAR'S MEASUREMENTS.

NOTE: After he checked his original archive he told me Pita male's measurements bellow was from his first capture when he weighed 122 kg, keep in mind his second capture he weighed 130 kg.

Measurement method: Straight Line.


1 - Suely female 77 kg :

Head girth 62.0 cm.

Neck girth 53.5 cm.

Thorax girth 96 cm.

Shoulder height 78.0 cm.

Body length 129.0 cm.

Tail length 61 cm.

Full Body length 190 cm.

---

2 - Zezão melanistic male 110 kg :

Head girth 70.5 cm.

Neck girth 58.5 cm.

Thorax girth 99 cm.

Shoulder height 80.0 cm.

Body length 143.0 cm.

Tail length 67 cm.

Full Body length 210 cm.

---

3 - Pita male 122 kg :

Head girth 71.0 cm.

Neck girth 70.0 cm.

Thorax girth 114 cm.

Shoulder height 70.0 cm.

Body length 151.0 cm.

Tail length 56 cm.

Full Body length 207 cm.

---

Moment Crawshaw sent me the Head and Neck girth of the 3.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Comparisons:

Just like I told to Crawshaw when I saw Pita neck's girth its impressive how these animals vary on the measurements department while some might be thicker and greater in one area others could be thicker and greater on other areas of the body like in this case Pita being thicker than Joker on the neck girth.

It seems like I got a new record breaker on the jaguar's neck girth department on my books so far.

Pita got a whooping 70.0 cm on neck girth.

Pita male's neck is 4 cm thicker than Joker's 66 cm neck and Pita's neck surpasses even Almeida's largest neck girth male measurement of 68.5 cm.

Pita is also very low on the shoulders compared to 110 kg melanistic male Zezão and 77 kg female Suely, he is 10 cm lower on the shoulders compared to Zezão.

By his measurements and by what Crawshaw told me about Pita, I can say Pita was definitely a low to the ground stocky beast. A true representative of the jaguar species.

---

Peter Crawshaw and Pita male in 1994.

*This image is copyright of its original author

DARK JAGUAR

Very interesting post! Must have taken you some time. Many thanks for the effort. As to Crawshaw. Most biologists involved in wild big cats stay away from forums, but he decided to contribute. I'm sure it's much appreciated by many readers interested in jaguars. 

DIMENSIONS

Peter Crawshaw is one of the few biologists who measured wild big cats in a straight line. This is the correct way to measure the length of a cat. I also have no questions on chest circumference, as it's clear the jaguars were lifted in order to measure the chest circumference. The information he provided, therefore, is very reliable.   

The dimensions of the 3 wild jaguars enable us to compare them to leopards. When we have reliable information about the dimensions of Sumatran tigers, we will be able to get to a table like the one below:

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

The table has one typo (on top). It says '1989-1902', whereas it should have been '1889-1902'. 

The Maharajah of Cooch Behar measured 10 male tigers shot in Cooch Behar, the Duars and Assam in the period 1898-1902 'between pegs'. Of these, 8 were measured both 'over curves' and 'between pegs'. The average difference between both methods was 13,84 cm. 

My aim is to get to similar tables for lions, jaguars and leopards, as it's the only way to get to a reliable comparison. In order to get there, we need reliable information on the neck girth of tigers and the circumference of the front limbs of jaguars and leopards. Same for the width of the heel. Maybe you can talk to a few jaguar biologists, as measuring the heel width, the fore-arm and the upper-arm won't take a lot of time. 

RELATIVE ROBUSTNESS 

Some years ago, Tigerluver, using reliable measurements only, tried to find out a bit more about the relative robustness of different tiger subspecies. Based on what he had, he concluded Sunda tigers were more robust than mainland tigers.  

Unfortunately, there's not much on Sunda tigers. Apart from skull measurements, there's almost no info on the body dimensions of Bali and Java tigers. We do, however, have some information about the body dimensions of Sumatran tigers.  

How do jaguars, in the department of relative robustness, compare to Sumatran tigers? What we have strongly suggests Sumatran tigers (referring to wild adult males only) are longer. My guess is it could be 10-12 inches at the level of averages (referring to total length measured in a straight line). They also have longer (and heavier) skulls. Weightwise, however, both more or less compare. This means jaguars most probably top the table.

The problem is the information on Sumatran tigers (referring to weight) was collected about a century ago, whereas the information on jaguars is recent. The question is if the size of wild big cats can change in a period of, say, a century. What I have on tigers strongly suggests it is quite possible. This conclusion is, indirectly, confirmed by recent information about the size of jaguars: there's no question that conditions and hunting have an effect.

QUESTION

In the eighties of the last century, I was in Surinam and French Guyana. When they heard I was interested in wild animals, I was introduced to a man involved in capturing and selling wild animals. I met him in the heart of the jungle. He told me he had an official permit and added he graduated in Berlin (Germany) in 1941 (during WWII). This although he had the Dutch nationality. Meaning he most probably topped a few lists after the war. But they couldn't find him and my trade was big cats. He showed me everything he had and told me about his contacts (USA mainly). I also talked to the people trapping jaguars, pumas and ocelots. What I saw suggested jaguars in Surinam seldom exceeded 60 kg. 

A week later, however, we visited a river island close to Brazil. The island was small, densely forested and almost empty. Almost, as there was a jaguar. We stayed for 2 days. During the first night, he paid us a visit. I didn't see or sense any (indirect) aggression, meaning we were welcome to stay for the night. On the second day, his claws had left deep scars in the bark a giant tree a few feet away from the tent. Time to leave, we concluded. His prints and scratches said he was a big man, but he was the only one of that size in Surinam. 

Many years later, I visited the Naturalis Museum in Leiden (Netherlands). I measured many skulls from jaguars shot in Surinam. I also read an article written by Husson. All skulls I measured were small to medium-sized. The size of jaguars in Surinam was confirmed by Husson.  

Not so long ago, this photograph was posted. I know about angles and the effect on size, but it's clear the jaguar, allegedly poached in Surinam, was both robust and big-skulled:                

*This image is copyright of its original author

Watch the machine used to transport the jaguar, the buildings, the mud and the woman. Not typical for Surinam, but you never know. My question is if you can find out a bit more about the location and the photograph.