(10-01-2020, 08:06 PM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar that's ok, I just needed to be assured she was a reliable source and happens to be an amazing one. I'll share the Cerrado table with you later today through PM and I'll keep the Pantanal one, that way we can split time in editing. Do you know if she's aware of any other capture that we can add to the table?

Quote:You are also justified in questioning the mean weights being claimed for Pantanal jaguars. This whole idea that these jaguars are now bigger than a couple of decades ago is BS. And those aren’t my words, that’s what I’ve been told by a top authority on the subject from the field (see your PM).

Quote:The figures for Pantanal jaguars published in the paper, Body Mass and Skull measurements in four jaguars populations 1996, are still considered perfectly valid by experts but of course aren’t good enough for the fanboys. And it’s also clear that researchers from the field are fed up with these guys constantly contacting them about the size of big jaguars for their fantasy tables (again see your PM).

Quote:The reason why PCTs and his wildfact crew are calculating a higher mean than that published in proper scientific papers is simple – a lack of understanding of basic statistics and lack of objectiveness. In order for a mean weight to be representative of the population the sample has to be randomly selected, meaning all individuals whether small/big/mediocre should have an equal chance of being included

Quote:But of course, these guys eagerly incorporate weights of jaguars which have specifically been pointed out for their large size. Similarly, when you rely on Instagram posts for most of your data, the sample will likely be biased towards bigger individuals as big impressive individuals tend to be highlighted on social media.  A huge 120kg jaguar which is captured occasionally is much more likely to get a post than the typical 100kg males which are captured regularly, and certainly more than any smallish sub 90kg male.

Quote:Similarly, they know the weight of 131kg for the big male Shaka was recorded when he was gorged and that on a subsequent capture he weighed 117kg, but of course the higher weight is still used. The funniest one was Brutus who was weighed as a fully grown adult (8 years old) at 115kg but despite that, a casual estimate of 130kg stated in the comment section of an instagram post was used instead because apparently Brutus was still growing. They’ve now changed it to 120kg, still adding 5kg to his recorded weight for some reason because hey why not.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Then there’s also the fact that the 148kg and 142kg individuals are the same – so they’ve included the biggest most exceptional individual twice. Not to mention, we only know about this individual because he was highlighted for his huge size so there goes random selection. It should be no wonder how higher a mean than that in published sources is derived with such poor science.  

Quote:Here is the published data on the weights of Pantanal jaguars captured by scientists in the last 2 decades (including what you posted). A total of 21 adult males average 100.1kg, with the majority of the males weighing in the 95 to 105kg range. The largest male weighed 130kg and the next 2 biggest both weighed 115kg.  This is a pretty good sized and unbiased sample which is perfectly adequate to tell us about the size of these jaguars.

Estudo epidemiológico de patógenos circulantes nas populações de onça-pintada e animais domésticos em áreas preservadas de três biomas brasileiros: Cerrado, Pantanal e Amazônia. 2010

Coleta farmacológica e criopreservação de sêmen de grandes felinos mantidos em cativeiro e capturados em vida livre com o uso de armadilhas de laço.

Detecção sorológica e molecular de agentes infecciosos em onças-pintadas (Panthera onca).

Quote:In addition to the published papers, we can also include weights from the Oncafari website which has profiles of the jaguars being tracked, with the weights of some individuals listed ( https://oncafari.org/en/especie_fauna/jaguar/#oncas ). Shaka was captured at age 8 and recorded at 131kg (although according to PCTS himself he weighed 117kg when not gorged). Apache weighed 107kg at age 7, Pirata 106.3kg at age 9, Felino 102.3kg at age 4, Zico 110kg at age 9, Sombra 120kg at age 11. Brutus was weighed at 115kg at 8 but he is actually already included in the last paper above.

If we add these additional weights the average for a total of 27 adult males is 102.3kg, with the largest 5 males weighing 115kg or more. If we only look at males that we know were at least 7 years old and thus fully grown – we get a mean weight of 106kg for 14 males.

Quote:The difference occurs when you start conflating the data with social media posts and start asking the experts about specific individuals which stand out. 

Quote:In fact, Dr. Hoogesteijn thinks your whole idea that the Pantanal jaguars are now bigger is BS! When asked about the size of Pantanal jaguars and the possibility the current average weight is higher, he guided me to his 1996 paper (Body Mass and Skull Measurements in Four Jaguar Populations) which gives an average weight of 99.5kg for adult males in the Pantanal.

Quote:Dude this is so pathetic, it's embarrassing. In Hoogesteijn's original email to that person in Spanish there is nothing about a 115kg average weight. That was added in by one of the Wildfact goofs themselves when they posted the English translation. Look at the image of the original Spanish text you posted yourself.

Quote:BALAM (AND DARK JAGUAR)

Excellent work. It shows serious work always results in something of value in the end. As a result of your efforts, this forum now offers good information about the jaguar. Today, those interested in jaguars can read for hours in the threads you and Dark Jaguar created. My advice is to be proud of what you and Dark Jaguar achieved. That and to continue. You now know for sure it's appreciated my those running this forum as well as jaguar biologists. And many others. 

(10-22-2020, 03:25 AM)Balam Wrote: I have some exciting new data to share here @Dark Jaguar @peter @Pckts @GuateGojira @epaiva @Lycaon and all other readers.

I have been in contact for a while with the team at Oncafari, like many other biologists the likes of Hoggesteijn, Tortado, Crashaw etc. They became aware of our compilation table, the biologist Edu Fragoso was kind enough to formulate a chart with all the weights from the jaguar they have captured at Caiman Ecological Refuge in the south of the Pantanal. He sent me the table with al the correct information, including some unpublished weights for a couple of jaguars, the table created by Oncafari and thus coming directly as a first-hand source from a scientific institution is here, this is a WildFact exclusive:

*This image is copyright of its original author

All the weights were inputted into our own table with the exception of Ipe, the reason being that he was a sub-adult of 1,3 years old when captured, as can be seen in their chart. Edu told me that "Brutus" (115 kg) is not the same jaguar as "Brutos" (120 kg), who was captured by biologist Gediendson in collaboration with Oncas do Rio Negro. This had previously caused confusion among us here, but we have been given a clear answer directly from the biologists themselves.

A new male named Robusto (Robust) was provided with an outstanding weight of 137 kg, I was clueless about the existence of this male as they had not shared him on their page before. This also contradicts certain accusations that we have received by a couple of users at a different forum entailing that these organizations only posted the heaviest jaguars captured for amusement purposes, clearly these organizations are among the most prestige and they abide by very tight standards, the biologists who work for them have one single goal and that is to study these jaguars and collect as much data as possible in order to advance their conservation.

The table above also gives us a glimpse into the data for the females in the area, which will be essential for our next table involving the female jaguars from the Pantanal. I do want to highlight the impressive weights coming from them, with several in the 90s and Troncha in the 100s kg of weight, which we knew of already.

Edu told me that currently, Oncafari is attempting to capture jaguars at Da Ilha refuge, as I stated here before, but unfortunately, the team has not been successful so far. They still have 4 more nights on fieldwork so the chances of a jaguar being baited remain a possibility.

In regards to the weight for Shaka, their own table (a scientific document) clearly solidified his weight as 131 kg. The claim Edu made before of him weighing 118 kg at a different capture is relevant, but as I said before this drop in weight could be the result of the deteriorating of the body of the animal as a result of aging, no stomach content has been quoted by Oncafari to jump to conclusions that he was "gorged" during his initial capture. As the weight they provided is 131 kg, that is the weight we will retain.

Lastly, I have included their estimation for Joker's weight in our table under a comment. It's safe to say that they are being conservative with their estimation of its weight as they've clearly specified that he most likely weighed more than 140 kg, and seeing as though they already captured a jaguar at nearly that size (Robusto), it's clear that they notice a size difference between him and Joker that warranted said estimate. It's also important to highlight that other massive jaguars such as Ghost and Houdini who did not fall into the baiting traps could never be captured by the team, but looking at all this data it's safe to say that the average for male jaguars is higher than 100 kg, at least in designated areas, as none of the adult males captures by Oncafari was under 100 kg in weight.

As a result, the table has been updated and can be accessed here, our sample includes 61 jaguars with an average of 112.05 kg of weight. Please keep in mind that I'm still waiting for the Jaguar ID to provide for me weights for males captured by Panthera at Porto Jofre, due to the fire situations the vets and the entire team have been extremely busy. Be on the lookout for more jaguar weights from the Pantanal, as well as for the future papers from Panthera involving Colombian Llanos jaguars that were confirmed to me recently as well.

Kind regards!

(10-22-2020, 03:25 AM)Balam Wrote: I have some exciting new data to share here @Dark Jaguar @peter @Pckts @GuateGojira @epaiva @Lycaon and all other readers.

I have been in contact for a while with the team at Oncafari, like many other biologists the likes of Hoggesteijn, Tortado, Crashaw etc. They became aware of our compilation table, the biologist Edu Fragoso was kind enough to formulate a chart with all the weights from the jaguar they have captured at Caiman Ecological Refuge in the south of the Pantanal. He sent me the table with al the correct information, including some unpublished weights for a couple of jaguars, the table created by Oncafari and thus coming directly as a first-hand source from a scientific institution is here, this is a WildFact exclusive:

*This image is copyright of its original author

All the weights were inputted into our own table with the exception of Ipe, the reason being that he was a sub-adult of 1,3 years old when captured, as can be seen in their chart. Edu told me that "Brutus" (115 kg) is not the same jaguar as "Brutos" (120 kg), who was captured by biologist Gediendson in collaboration with Oncas do Rio Negro. This had previously caused confusion among us here, but we have been given a clear answer directly from the biologists themselves.

A new male named Robusto (Robust) was provided with an outstanding weight of 137 kg, I was clueless about the existence of this male as they had not shared him on their page before. This also contradicts certain accusations that we have received by a couple of users at a different forum entailing that these organizations only posted the heaviest jaguars captured for amusement purposes, clearly these organizations are among the most prestige and they abide by very tight standards, the biologists who work for them have one single goal and that is to study these jaguars and collect as much data as possible in order to advance their conservation.

The table above also gives us a glimpse into the data for the females in the area, which will be essential for our next table involving the female jaguars from the Pantanal. I do want to highlight the impressive weights coming from them, with several in the 90s and Troncha in the 100s kg of weight, which we knew of already.

Edu told me that currently, Oncafari is attempting to capture jaguars at Da Ilha refuge, as I stated here before, but unfortunately, the team has not been successful so far. They still have 4 more nights on fieldwork so the chances of a jaguar being baited remain a possibility.

In regards to the weight for Shaka, their own table (a scientific document) clearly solidified his weight as 131 kg. The claim Edu made before of him weighing 118 kg at a different capture is relevant, but as I said before this drop in weight could be the result of the deteriorating of the body of the animal as a result of aging, no stomach content has been quoted by Oncafari to jump to conclusions that he was "gorged" during his initial capture. As the weight they provided is 131 kg, that is the weight we will retain.

Lastly, I have included their estimation for Joker's weight in our table under a comment. It's safe to say that they are being conservative with their estimation of its weight as they've clearly specified that he most likely weighed more than 140 kg, and seeing as though they already captured a jaguar at nearly that size (Robusto), it's clear that they notice a size difference between him and Joker that warranted said estimate. It's also important to highlight that other massive jaguars such as Ghost and Houdini who did not fall into the baiting traps could never be captured by the team, but looking at all this data it's safe to say that the average for male jaguars is higher than 100 kg, at least in designated areas, as none of the adult males captures by Oncafari was under 100 kg in weight.

As a result, the table has been updated and can be accessed here, our sample includes 61 jaguars with an average of 112.05 kg of weight. Please keep in mind that I'm still waiting for the Jaguar ID to provide for me weights for males captured by Panthera at Porto Jofre, due to the fire situations the vets and the entire team have been extremely busy. Be on the lookout for more jaguar weights from the Pantanal, as well as for the future papers from Panthera involving Colombian Llanos jaguars that were confirmed to me recently as well.

Kind regards!

(10-27-2020, 03:17 AM)Balam Wrote: 84 kg Amazonian male from Morro de Mendanha in Brazil, empty belly.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This was posted by biologist Herbert O, in the caption he explains that the jaguar was captured by IOP (Leandro Silveira's organized) and IBAMA.

This area of the Amazon is well protected and rich in prey for jaguars, as a result it produces decent sized Amazon specimens.