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+----- Thread: Plains Camp Males (/topic-plains-camp-males)
RE: Plains Camp males - Mapokser - 09-02-2023
PCM and Mangheni cub by Idube's head guide FJ:
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Plains Camp males - Mapokser - 09-02-2023
(09-02-2023, 01:29 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(09-02-2023, 12:57 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tr1x24 Comparison with NK works because NK matched Nhenha who was bigger in comparison to bigger Kambula than Amahle is to probably overall Kambulas, there's a photo with an unknown Kambula where she's taller.
One Londolozi ranger said Nhenha and PCM were a bit bigger than Amahle and another one seems to think PCM ( and Gijimas ) are also much bigger. Which is also worth mentioning.
Ok, Nhenha is prob a bit taller then Amahle i agree, but height is not only factor for size, with Amahles mane and bulkines i wouldnt be suprised he looks close in frame to Nhenha or NK.
(09-02-2023, 12:57 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @NLAL11 NK was indeed potentially taller, but PCM swallowed NK in length and overall bulkiness/frame. Weight wise it was clear PCM would weight much more.
2 problems with this sighting:
1. 2 PCMs have much larger mane, which brings a lot to frame size
2. 2 PCMs are almost full bellied while NK is empty and looks more thiner then usual
Mass difference is noticable between a lion who eated recently + has full belly, or male who didnt eat for few days and has empty belly.
Many factors came to play, lions are not always in same condition and same mass.
I agree that PCMs are prob a bit bigger then NK, but NK in peak condition + full belly + big mane like them and he is prob very close in frame to them.
1- Does mane even blind our persception that much when we have something to compare as a reference? NK was only thought to be smaller than Nhenha before they joined up, once they were seen in the same vids, we saw they were equal. Another example, Shaka Mbiri has similar mane to NK, but everybody says he is huge and not much smaller than his big-maned brother.
2- PCM didn't had a full belly, just a partial stomach content, far from full. Not to say, PCM had just turned 5, while NK was 6+ already. According to the chart on age/weight, the average lion goes from 184kg when he turns 5 to 188kg when he turns 6, entering his absolute prime, so while it doesn't make a big difference, PCM likely gained a few kg in the last year to make up for the stomach content they had when comparing to NK.
A full stomach looks like this, the lion can barely move:
*This image is copyright of its original author
3- Also, one thing we gotta consider is that while some frames are "perfect", in some others NK is much closer to the camera, but even then he didn't manage to match even the smaller PCM who not only is shorter than his brother:
*This image is copyright of its original author
And noticeably thinner:
Smaller PCM:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Bigger PCM:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
There's a considerable difference between NK and smaller PCM, and another considerable difference between smaller PCM and his bigger brother
RE: Plains Camp males - Tr1x24 - 09-02-2023
(09-02-2023, 08:15 AM)Mapokser Wrote: 1- Does mane even blind our persception that much when we have something to compare as a reference? NK was only thought to be smaller than Nhenha before they joined up, once they were seen in the same vids, we saw they were equal. Another example, Shaka Mbiri has similar mane to NK, but everybody says he is huge and not much smaller than his big-maned brother.
Yes, mane brings a lot, Scar is always reffered to being bigger then Shaka, mostly because of his massive mane, as their overall body size is quite similar, with Scar being a bit more muscular.
Another example mrT Mapogo, always called one of the smallest, but when he was near his brothers, especially after his return, he looked on pair in body size as even Dreadlocks.
Males who are similar in size, one with bigger mane will appear bigger in our eyes and frame.
(09-02-2023, 08:15 AM)Mapokser Wrote: 2- PCM didn't had a full belly, just a partial stomach content, far from full. Not to say, PCM had just turned 5, while NK was 6+ already. According to the chart on age/weight, the average lion goes from 184kg when he turns 5 to 188kg when he turns 6, entering his absolute prime, so while it doesn't make a big difference, PCM likely gained a few kg in the last year to make up for the stomach content they had when comparing to NK.
Im not just talking about belly fullnes, yet overall mass, lion who eated recently will have more mass in body then lion who didnt eat for days.
Lions are not always at same mass, you can find sightings of even PCMs where they look massive and then when they look thinner.
And we wil say then "oh look, that other lion looks more massive then this skinnier one", but if skinnier eated as massive one, he might look massive as him.
(09-02-2023, 08:15 AM)Mapokser Wrote: 3- Also, one thing we gotta consider is that while some frames are "perfect", in some others NK is much closer to the camera, but even then he didn't manage to match even the smaller PCM who not only is shorter than his brother:
Smaller maned PC male is not shorter then his brother, they are same sizes in height.
You used photo where bigger maned stands with head up, while his brothers head is down.
This again shows how comparisons with photos are tricky, and can be easily manipulated.
(09-02-2023, 08:15 AM)Mapokser Wrote: There's a considerable difference between NK and smaller PCM, and another considerable difference between smaller PCM and his bigger brother
Idk what you consider "considerable" ,but yea, PCMs are a bit bigger overall then NK, thats not even debate.
Would they dwarf him? No, because NK is also big, by that logic females should look like subs towards PC males, as NK looks quite bigger then females aswell.
I mean you can compare Ximhungwes to both parties.
RE: Plains Camp males - Mapokser - 09-03-2023
@Tr1x24 Shaka is said to be smaller because he is, but he is also always referred as big by himself.
Mapogos were literally weighed, Rob saw all 6 weighed with his own eyes when they were darted to get innoculated against rabbies, he says Mr.T was the smallest.
There wasn't an overall big difference, but Mr.T was leas muscular than the others. PB seems to easily knock him down and keep him on his back in the fight as if he was stronger. Cats usually fight on their back when they have a strength disadvantage.
NK was empty but he wasn't skinny, his condition was great without a single rib visible, he just doesn't look bulky because he is in the same video as PCM, if let's say Tumbela was there instead, NK would look impressive. Look at Talamati and NK, when they met, when we saw them together but in an angle not allowing a decent comparison, Talamati looked impressive and everybody was "wow" but then suddenly we get footage of Talamati chasing him and it became clear NK was much larger. And NK was a poor traumatized limping nomad at that moment.
Smaller PCM is shorter, even if he were to stand his head he'd still be shorter and while I agree photos can be tricky, there are more showing Makhunga is taller, perhaps even videos.
When I say "considerable" or "dwarfed" in the context of male to male comparison I'm not saying the difference is between a male and female, not even close, males on average weight 60-70kg more than females, you'd need some of the biggest lions ever to do this to an average lion. And not only PCM are not around the biggest ever ( although they are very big ) but NK is not average either.
RE: Plains Camp males - Horizon - 09-03-2023
The Plains Camp Male full of blood and dirt after killing a hyena a few minutes before.
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RE: Plains Camp males - Horizon - 09-03-2023
Makhunga was being lazy in the beginning but later he join on the roaring formation, the 2 plains camp males
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RE: Plains Camp males - BigLion39 - 09-05-2023
(09-03-2023, 12:02 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Cats usually fight on their back when they have a strength disadvantage.
Not so sure about that. 1 example is Lipstick2 vs Blackie2. Lipstick2 was clearly a more impressive male over his brother, bigger, bulkier, etc.... but he fought his brother on his back many times. I don't think it has to do with strength as 2 same age adult males are always gonna be pretty evenly matched in strength and stamina across the board given theyre both healthy. I think it's just a strategy and only a strategy and has nothing to do with strength.
If I looked I can probably find countless other examples. A good look probably would be 2 Ross males.
RE: Plains Camp males - Horizon - 09-14-2023
Inyati game lodge
Sabisands game reserve
Plains camp male looking very good condition and healthy,my Tracker Joel which his counted amongst the best trackers in sabisands,he told me that the lion wagged the tail on his feet and he felt a bit than he was expected,as always will continue to share best sightings as we continue to protect this animals for you and generation to come.
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RE: Plains Camp males - Horizon - 09-14-2023
Driven by more Success
The larger Plains Camp male tests the urine of a Ximungwe lioness. The expression known as the Flehmen Grimace allows the male to check on her reproductive status and readiness to mate. " target="_blank" class="post_link">
RE: Plains Camp males - BA0701 - 09-14-2023
(09-14-2023, 06:10 PM)Horizon Wrote: Driven by more Success" target="_blank" class="post_link">
The larger Plains Camp male tests the urine of a Ximungwe lioness. The expression known as the Flehmen Grimace allows the male to check on her reproductive status and readiness to mate.
"Driven by success", does that mean PCM have accepted the new cubs? That could be a good and a bad thing. If they accept them, being there are only two lionesses, if they both have new cubs they will not be ready to mate for some time, which means PCMs wandering eyes may start wandering again. Also, what happens when Skorro Jr comes around again, and maybe even Nkuhuma? I know the PCMs will do the same thing they have been doing with those two boys, I am referring to the Xims.
RE: Plains Camp males - Duco Ndona - 09-14-2023
Its probably just more of the random flairthe social media accounts of reserves add to sell the story with no real meaning behind it.
The cubs are still to young to be introduced to the pride or anything like that. So they probably have not met them yet, or are even aware of their existence.
Which males will end up accepting the new cubs and which will probably end up killing them is still unknown. Though the PCmales, provided they are introduced to the cubs first, are currently the most likely to accept them.
RE: Plains Camp males - Zigzag - 09-15-2023
Both PC males patrolling eastern borders...much needed for them
https://youtu.be/AaJhxcOkNyc?si=SJj8qGvunJpDoThA
RE: Plains Camp males - Horizon - 09-17-2023
Powerful kings deserve love, admiration, and respect.
The Plains Camp male lions, dominant rulers of the western region of Sabi Sands, relentlessly pursue greater power and dominance. They engage in fierce battles driven by their insatiable hunger for further control. These majestic males serve as formidable protectors of their prides and cubs, currently thriving in the prime of their lives with many peak years still ahead.
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RE: Plains Camp males - Tonpa - 09-17-2023
"The Plains Camp Males protecting the Ximungwe’s Den sight. Great to see how much time these males are spending around the den sight and with the females.
Hopefully this is a good sign for the cubs’ future."
RE: Plains Camp males - Cath2020 - 09-17-2023
This is a great sign that they understand that they're the sires to the cubs. I read that male lions can often figure out if they're the sires by when they mated with the lioness that's just given birth. (Thus, lionesses must time things 'perfectly' to fool multiple males) They seem to know just how long a pregnancy should last... We've seen them mating a lot with the Xim. Females....and none with the Tumbela Male. The latter is mainly interested in things besides mating at this point...although he probably wouldn't refuse an opportunity. He doesn't seem to be keen on finding a partner and conquering other prides because he's continually around the area. Seems like the PC Males are not trying hard to get rid of him for good.
They are acting like they are guarding very carefully and diligently...as if the cubs are royalty or something...ha! (Well, they are in the lion world we follow. The Xim. and Othawa Prides are arguably the two most popular...now sort of combined).
The Tumbela Male is the sire of the last 2 members of the beloved Othawa Pride itself, and maybe the PC Males will also try to mate and have cubs with his daughters, too. The bloodline of these males could intertwine one day. Maybe they sense that he's related to some of the females around the area....and is not acting dominate anymore, thus their toleration for him for sooooo long. (We don't see him scent-marking or roaring anymore)