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+----- Thread: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara (/topic-other-male-lion-coalitions-from-masai-mara)
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RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - adamstocks16 - 08-02-2024
Nice map @BigLion39 that’s really useful info. On that map are ‘Hammerkop Males’ the coalition of Haile, Osidai, Mdogo & Loki or some other males? As I’ve seen them referred to before as Hammerkop Males, Kissinger Males and Mugoro Males.
Weren’t Lipstick 2 & Blackie 2 also referred to as Hammerkop Males too?
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-04-2024
(08-02-2024, 09:49 PM)adamstocks16 Wrote: Nice map @BigLion39 that’s really useful info. On that map are ‘Hammerkop Males’ the coalition of Haile, Osidai, Mdogo & Loki or some other males? As I’ve seen them referred to before as Hammerkop Males, Kissinger Males and Mugoro Males.
Weren’t Lipstick 2 & Blackie 2 also referred to as Hammerkop Males too?
Yes but theres 2 Hammerkop. 1 in OMC which L2 and B2 held and 1 in the Reserve , Kissinger, which they call most of the time which 4 Muguro Boys had. Very confusing as they use the same names and similar for so many different prides, lions, coalitions. L2/B2 lost the pride to the 3 Dikidiki boys back in 2020. They must have lost the pride to 4 Lemek Boys sometime as when the 2 brothers that were left alive out of 3 came into Topi territory, 3 Salas killed his brother and he abandoned Moniko-Sankai. They named him Orkuret. He is collared now and frequents Talek River area alot. Blackie2 has a pride in Nashulai Conservancy, he couldd still be teamed up with Olopi as well.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-04-2024
Enkong'u, 1/4 Enkoyunai Boys got caught by 2/3 nomads. No info yet on who they were. He was treated by vets and his injuries are not life threatening. His 3 brothers were out patrolling. Enkong'u was with the pride after vet treatment. He will survive.
Older pic of Enkong'u, brother, and pride.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thank you to the guides that made the phone call to the vets and did what had to be done to get the vets there to treat him. Bless them!
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-05-2024
Also Oltiorre and Lerai, sons of Rekero Boys traveled all the way from Olarro Conservancy (it is seperated by villiages from the reserve) tried to take Sopa pride, ended up in Black Rock. Oloiborr/Manywele caught Oltiorre and gave him a beating. Not sure why Lerai ran. Im not even sure why they didn't come with their 3rd brother. Vets treated him, im not sure the prognosis. Sorry i dont have any pics of him right now.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - KM600 - 08-05-2024
(08-05-2024, 01:35 AM)BigLion39 Wrote: Also Oltiorre and Lerai, sons of Rekero Boys traveled all the way from Olarro Conservancy (it is seperated by villiages from the reserve) tried to take Sopa pride, ended up in Black Rock. Oloiborr/Manywele caught Oltiorre and gave him a beating. Not sure why Lerai ran. Im not even sure why they didn't come with their 3rd brother. Vets treated him, im not sure the prognosis. Sorry i dont have any pics of him right now.
Heard the same, they were said to have given him quite a beating.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-05-2024
(08-05-2024, 01:40 AM)KM600 Wrote: Heard the same, they were said to have given him quite a beating.
Yeah but nobody ever posted a good pic of Oltiorre. Not sure even the extent of his injuries. So it seems, i would guess, that Oltiorre/Lerai were actually with Nkarabali with the Isataan Pride in Siana Conservancy the most rescent sigting a few months ago. They might have left the pride in Olarro N. Siana is a lot closer to the Reserve. My mind is still boggled on what happened in Olarro N and why they left and where is Nkarabaldi.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-05-2024
As far as Enkong'u, he will be ok. Hes with the River Pride. Sankai Boys have been in Olchorro. Rangers suspect the culprits ti be 2/3 nomads from Oloisikut. These are thr males that moved in after Morani disappeared and his son left.
Oh Morani son has also been caught by other males and had injuries on his hip/spine. He is ok tho. Below is pic of Rekero Breakaway Boy, son of Morani and legendary 4 Muskies! You can see his injuries if you zoom.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-08-2024
Some Enkoyunai Boy info by Lucy Johnson. Thanks to her for such amazing and detailed information.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BA0701 - 08-10-2024
So, this happened in the Mara, where Black Rock Male, Oloshipa, was approaching a mother Cheetah and her four cubs. Two guide vehicles intervened, driving between the two parties, and pushing Oloshipa off in the opposite direction. The lodge claimed they did this due to the low numbers of Cheetah.
I am sharing this, as I believe it is a conversation worth having, but I ask that the conversation remain civil, regardless of which side of the debate you might sit on.
For me, personally, I understand why they did this, and it is certainly the way my heart would lean, but this is the wild, not a zoo, and I do not believe it should be treated that way. Many things have happened in the wild, and to many of these cats that mean so much to so many of us, that I wish had gone a different way, but I do not agree with human intervention when the conflict in question is between different creatures. While I do, personally, tend to agree with veterinary intervention, in most cases (though I understand when it is not used as well, and will not try to argue my point in such instances), this is an example of human intervention that I do not agree with. Let things play out the way nature intended for them to. The lady on Brothers in Blood, when discussing the killing of Kinky Tail, was discussing how awful it was to witness that, but she said that "we cannot get involved", and I agree with that. It should be viewed as an honor to witness them, in their natural environment, regardless of how things play out, but we cannot be there to protect and defend these creatures constantly, that is not the natural way of things.
So many things taking place in Masai Mara, of late, that to me seem so contradictory. On one hand they will go out of their way to protect the animals, as seen here, and on the other, nothing is done about the illegal encroachment of humans into the Mara, who are hostile towards the lions for no other reason than their behaving as lions should.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - KM600 - 08-10-2024
Speaking of BRBs, they had two nomadic males in Rongai Pride territory, it said these two males are the ones who chased Orkirikoi just recently and there’s supposedly 3 of them, possibly being from Paradise Pride. All 3 BRBs are with the Rongai Pride rn, so this male is extremely lucky to be alive, having injuries this minor after being caught. I’d imagine he bumped into 1 or 2 of them extremely briefly, and was able to get away just as fast.
Ppl are now thinking these might be older injuries which might explain the lack of blood still around the wounds, but I didn’t notice any injuries when they were first spotted in Rongai territory.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - KM600 - 08-10-2024
(08-10-2024, 07:01 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, this happened in the Mara, where Black Rock Male, Oloshipa, was approaching a mother Cheetah and her four cubs. Two guide vehicles intervened, driving between the two parties, and pushing Oloshipa off in the opposite direction. The lodge claimed they did this due to the low numbers of Cheetah.
I am sharing this, as I believe it is a conversation worth having, but I ask that the conversation remain civil, regardless of which side of the debate you might sit on.
For me, personally, I understand why they did this, and it is certainly the way my heart would lean, but this is the wild, not a zoo, and I do not believe it should be treated that way. Many things have happened in the wild, and to many of these cats that mean so much to so many of us, that I wish had gone a different way, but I do not agree with human intervention when the conflict in question is between different creatures. While I do, personally, tend to agree with veterinary intervention, in most cases (though I understand when it is not used as well, and will not try to argue my point in such instances), this is an example of human intervention that I do not agree with. Let things play out the way nature intended for them to. The lady on Brothers in Blood, when discussing the killing of Kinky Tail, was discussing how awful it was to witness that, but she said that "we cannot get involved", and I agree with that. It should be viewed as an honor to witness them, in their natural environment, regardless of how things play out, but we cannot be there to protect and defend these creatures constantly, that is not the natural way of things.
So many things taking place in Masai Mara, of late, that to me seem so contradictory. On one hand they will go out of their way to protect the animals, as seen here, and on the other, nothing is done about the illegal encroachment of humans into the Mara, who are hostile towards the lions for no other reason than their behaving as lions should.
This is one of those things where, as great as it is for cheetahs, it’s not fair to other animals. I’m sure there’s countless cases of lions undergoing surgery and then waking up to fresh meat that humans themselves have hunted for that lion so it has the best chance to survive. Is that fair on the impala, certainly not. You could also argue they’ve been doing this to lions for longer albeit this is contradictory as humans are also the biggest threats to lions within set areas, as u mentioned. Not chasing them other predators off, but more so helping with vet care etc. I’m not aware of the numbers of cheetahs in the Mara, but I can say it must be extremely low for them to do such things and go as far to protect these cheetahs, who are actually one of my favourite animals.
A great point for this being susceptible, is that cheetahs aren’t natural predators for lions, leopards or hyenas. Infact I’d argue having cheetahs around benefits these animals much more than not having them around, how rare is it for a cheetah to finish their whole meal. Normally, there’s always a lion or hyena around to take what’s left. I’d also be anxious about the use of vehicles in driving these animals off, especially lions as they’re the most attractive animals to tourists and are constantly being followed. U don’t want them undergoing new behaviours and becoming scared of vehicles.
This is obviously not the natural way to do things but can we really say these animals are living in their most natural environment, I’m not so sure. I replied instantly to this comment and was pretty much freestyling all of this without giving too much thought, but I see more positives that come out of the Mara helping cheetahs in this way than I do anything else, obviously I wouldn’t be expecting everyone to agree with this either.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - Duco Ndona - 08-10-2024
The goal of a reserve should always be to maintain balance. And for that balance to be maintained, its important that lions die a lot. Afteral, they themselves kill a lot of other animals, cheetah being one of them. So if you start helping lions, preventing them from dying purely out of compassion. This increases the lion population in the area posing a direct threat to hyenas, cheetahs, wild dogs and leopards. Some of them being a lot more threatened with extinction than the lion.
So you end up in a position where you have to start helping cheetahs by doing stunts like these. Or if the balance goes further out of whack, start culling lions to retain natural balance.
All of this intervening takes a lot of energy and time, money and resources, which is better spend on combatting the true problems these animals face. Habitat destruction and resolving human wildlife conflicts.
And I get it. Its nice to tell stories that your vet treated this lion that just sprained a leg. But all of that PR goes down the drain once the first hunters are invited in to kill all those lions you just saved. Or when you have to announce that Wild dogs are now threatened with local extinction in your park. Which is why I believe Sabi Sands is doing a much better job than the Masai Mara. Ensure that the cheetah, lion etc and prey population stay in balance and the park will be much better off.
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - Mapokser - 08-10-2024
It's a tricky situation, leaving aside the human-lion conflicts, Mara has saved countless lions with vet intervention, lions that would have died from natural causes, fighting other lions.
The BRB themselves have been treated more than once, had they never been and no human intervention had ever happened, would Oloshipa be alive and bump onto those Cheetah at that exact time? Idk.
My overall view is that nature should follow its course and humans shouldn't intervene at all, and I'm certainly against vets treating males lions that fought each other. Still, at a time where the species is in danger due to lack of territories ( now occupied by humans ) I'm not against certain interventions.
I remember when the Othawas got wiped out because Western Sector was fenced and they couldn't escape anywhere, I thought it was unfair and wouldn't mind if they fed the subs till they learned how to hunt ( luckily they learned quickly and started thriving ), specific interventions like these I support since it'd be the end of the biggest and at the time only proper established pride in the region who were trapped because their entire territory was fenced.
Anyway I'm happy the Cheetah were saved and although in a perfect scenario where the animals have big enough areas and humans aren't a threat to them, we shouldn't intervene at all, once you start treating lions and saving many of them from death, you can't really claim you should let the lion kill the Cheetah because "let nature takes its course".
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-15-2024
(08-10-2024, 08:00 AM)KM600 Wrote: Speaking of BRBs, they had two nomadic males in Rongai Pride territory, it said these two males are the ones who chased Orkirikoi just recently and there’s supposedly 3 of them, possibly being from Paradise Pride. All 3 BRBs are with the Rongai Pride rn, so this male is extremely lucky to be alive, having injuries this minor after being caught. I’d imagine he bumped into 1 or 2 of them extremely briefly, and was able to get away just as fast.
Ppl are now thinking these might be older injuries which might explain the lack of blood still around the wounds, but I didn’t notice any injuries when they were first spotted in Rongai territory.
Yes this is 1/4 sons of 6 Pack males. 1 of them has disappeared leaving 3. There has been a lot of young males taken beatings lately and a lot is confusing. Some thought the 2/3 Enesikiria Boys Oltiorre/Lerai intruded into Black Rock Pride males territory but the ID was wrong. It was one of these groups of young males, probably not this group but it could have been.
Lorkinyei, Kissinger pride male was treates that similar tine as this male for buffalo hint injury too. Vets were very busysy rescently
RE: Other male lion coalitions from Masai Mara - BigLion39 - 08-15-2024
(08-10-2024, 07:01 AM)BA0701 Wrote: So, this happened in the Mara, where Black Rock Male, Oloshipa, was approaching a mother Cheetah and her four cubs. Two guide vehicles intervened, driving between the two parties, and pushing Oloshipa off in the opposite direction. The lodge claimed they did this due to the low numbers of Cheetah.
From what i understand there is such a low number of Cheetahs, especially in the Mara, they must intervene. It is dire and Lion # s are supposedly stable in the Mara as per MPCP. This mom Cheetah had her 4 cubs with her Oloshipa would have most likely caught 1 or more, maybe even the mom. Cheetah percentage of raising cubs to adult also is low exacerbating the issue from what I've read.
If we dont change our ways were going to have to intervene sooner of later in areas like Kruger and other places. Kruger might be the last place on earth besides Gir that we might have to interfere in the future if people don'tnt smarten up and stop encroaching into their land.