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+----- Thread: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage (/topic-avoca-male-lions-and-their-male-lineage)
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RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Tr1x24 - 10-14-2024
(10-14-2024, 08:43 PM)Mapokser Wrote: It's interesting that some males like Nhenha still had that fire to try to be territorial, even after losing all his brothers and bonding with a son he didn't even remember, however most males like Mohawk, after being ousted in old age, they retire and just try to enjoy their last years in peace.
I think males "know/feel" if they can compete or not,
Nhenha was looking almost in peak/prime condition, very strong, throwing 6 yrs old NK male around like a toy.
Same how Kruger male still looks today, quite strong, he prob still wants to compete.
On the other hand, males like Mohawk or remaining S.Avoca definetly took a hit and dont look as strong as they did in their primes, so they prob feel that.
I mean, Mohawks 2 sons would prob beat him in a 1vs1 without much of a problem at this point, (prob a reason why Mohawk dont stick with them) , now imagine if he has to fight/compete vs some prime territorial males like PCMs, Gijimas, Mantimahle etc.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Ttimemarti - 10-14-2024
Well Mohawk and the southern avoca are what 11 1/2 and 12 + years old the southern avoca doesn’t have much of his teeth left and I believe the Kruger male is at least 10+ years old but definitely not as old of the avocas but the avocas are retired males at this point Mohawk is only hanging out with lions he knows his sons and daughters he won’t try to be a dominant male I don’t think he’ll most likely end up going nomadic with his youngest son or the southern black dam male but both avocas as dominant males probably won’t happen their most likely basically retired BUT I could very well be wrong
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Mapokser - 10-14-2024
Yeah, but when Mohawk was first forming a coalition with his 4 sons, even roaring, I was confident we'd see him as a dominant male again, but it turns out he is truly retired.
Age and the stress/blow of being ousted and losing your coalition partner hits every male differently.
Some remain very strong like Nhenha and the Kruger male, others deteriorate like the Avocas, even if they are healthy.
Gotta hope the 2 remaining NK males become as successful as their S.Avoca uncles, being a duo, but it is a shame that they could have been a 4 strong coalition, or even 5 with their father... Though at the same time, maybe it was for the best, you never know how damaging these big coalitions can be, especially if they had stick to Sabi Sands where everybody is raising new generations of young cubs.
The fact we have so many duos raising cubs currently is remarkable when we have 6 Nkhulu in the south and 4 Kambulas in the north.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Tr1x24 - 10-14-2024
(10-14-2024, 09:55 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Well Mohawk and the southern avoca are what 11 1/2 and 12 + years old the southern avoca doesn’t have much of his teeth left and I believe the Kruger male is at least 10+ years old but definitely not as old of the avocas
Kruger male is around their age.
Theres photos of him and bro as 2-3 yrs old young males in 2015 with pride, and photo of him from 2018 with already full mane.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Friarfan619 - 10-17-2024
Most handsome male in my biased opinion
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RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Duco Ndona - 10-17-2024
The difference is probably just circumstance. Mohawk is an older ailing lion placed between several younger much stronger and healtier ones. Offcource he is not going to be able to compete and thrive. He and the southern Avoca are solo males in a reserve that is way past its maximum limit of male lions right now. There simply is no spot for them now unless something happens that would give them a upperhand again.
Nhena had the luck that he ran into Nym and the Ximhungwe pride right after the Tumbellas collapsed and before the PCmales moved in. Otherwise he would have ended the same way as the Southern Avoca.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Go131810 - 10-17-2024
(10-17-2024, 10:08 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The difference is probably just circumstance. Mohawk is an older ailing lion placed between several younger much stronger and healtier ones. Offcource he is not going to be able to compete and thrive. He and the southern Avoca are solo males in a reserve that is way past its maximum limit of male lions right now. There simply is no spot for them now unless something happens that would give them a upperhand again.
Nhena had the luck that he ran into Nym and the Ximhungwe pride right after the Tumbellas collapsed and before the PCmales moved in. Otherwise he would have ended the same way as the Southern Avoca.
I thought if he did not meet them; he would have probably been better with the Nukhuma lionesses. It would have had been interesting but Mohawk was still around with his sons. Also the Plain Camp male lions strange when they came. They were with the Nukhuma, Mahangeni then the Ximhungwe.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - adamstocks16 - 10-18-2024
@Duco Ndona I understand your point but you could also look at the Nhenha/Nkuhuma situation the other way round and it was actually Nhenha who initiated things, took the lead tried to give himself and Nkuhuma the chance to become dominant males and ultimately paid the price for it.
It wasn’t a case of Nhenha struggling with his health and condition as a result of being a nomad and seeking out Nkuhuma for companionship, I genuinely believe Nhenha never lost that fire in his belly to be dominant and unfortunately Nkuhuma wasn’t quite ready for that next step and possibly never will be.
As for Mohawk, he pretty much just stayed with his sons after being ousted and that’s all it was, a temporary alliance which suited all their needs at the time. Now the sons have matured and moved off on their own but still retain some bonds with Mohawk as evidenced by their recent meeting. But I too believe Mohawk is content in his retirement and has no real desire to compete to become dominant again, or the physical strength to do so.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Duco Ndona - 10-18-2024
I doubt it. Aside of that combo, there simply were no opportunities in Sabi Sands. Or at least none that would allow him to come territorial again in a way that would not end the same way.
And Nhenha never really showed signs of having that much of a drive to be dominant in his final years. He and Nkuhuma never really made a push to confront the PCmales and properly take over the Ximhungwes. But rather hung around only to flee when the PCmales showed up.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Mapokser - 10-18-2024
The first time the PCM met NK/Nhenha as dominant males having ousted Tumbela, there was an actual clash.
Nhenha tried to chase the PCM, walking towards them roaring ( there's footage with the guide describing it ), it didn't work out and he was almost caught, after that yeah they never had any confidence to stand up to PCM and became semi-nomadic males.
It's possible that, had NK done the same thing, standing side by side with Nhenha, things would have ended differently.
To our knowledge nobody has ever charged back at the PCM with numbers to confront them, the opposition has always fled immediately or lacked the numbers ( like in Nhenha's case ), until the recent clash with Ndhzengas where they were chasing one male but as soon as he met with the other, they roared back and chased the PCM, going back and forth.
So those young barely 5yo PCM would probably not have been able to oust Nhenha/NK so easily if they had stand to them together the first time, in a back and forth chasing.
It's hard to see Mohawk or even his brother having similar strength to Nhenha back them, despite we knowing that prime Mohawk was able to chase Nhenha off in Birmingham territory.
When coalitions have the same numbers, as long as one side stand together and have the confidence to compete, it's unlikely they'd get rolled over by the opposition, like it happened to NK/Nhenha.
Even if we look at very powerful duos, you generally don't see them being able to easily show up, walk over another dominant duo and oust them.
Generally that only happens if one side is old/weakened like Mjejane ousting S.Shishangeni & Eastern Bank if I'm not mistaken, or if someone gets caught alone like when Skorros ousted thr Nhahru males.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Duco Ndona - 10-18-2024
Even if both stood their ground back then. I doubt the conflict would have resolved itself back then.
The PCmales are quite assertive if it comes to acquiring new prides while the Birminghams were just to passive in their defense. Even when Nhenha was up against the Avocas he and Tinyo choose to retreat south rather than confronting the Avocas. Everyone was just waiting for the Avocas to eventually take over until the Nwaswitshakas swooped in.
Keep in mind that Nhenha was an older lion that just lost everything and only just met Nym. So I dont really see why everyone was expecting much to begin with.
So they would just be pushed west by the PC males and eventually lose the pride.
And to steer things back to the southern Avoca. He has recovered greatly after a harsh adjustment period. If he runs into the same opportunity Nhenha did back then. I think he would atleast do just as well.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - adamstocks16 - 10-19-2024
We’ll have to see if his new partnership with Kruger Male becomes permanent. If so I would imagine Kruger Male will be the one taking the lead with Southern Avoca tagging along in a more supporting role. Still, will give him the best chance of survival to stick with Kruger Male.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - Ngonya - 10-24-2024
Nkuhuma young males in KNP, October 2024
*This image is copyright of its original author
by Xander Buys
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - KM600 - 10-25-2024
2/3 Sand River boys. Nice to get a closer look at that male I was speaking about before with the impressive mane.
RE: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage - NLAL11 - 10-25-2024
Southern Avoca male, picture dated 14th October. Credits to Sean Zeederberg (Londolozi).
*This image is copyright of its original author