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+----- Thread: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia (/topic-lions-in-south-africa-zimbabwe-and-namibia)
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - Duco Ndona - 05-20-2021
I can get the desire to help an animal in need. Its very commendable.
Though I wonder if it really helps those animals.
Were these animals ever in danger? Mothers and cubs are perfectly capable to finding eachother on their own. Sometimes the mothers even abandon their cubs for a little bit to distract predators from them.
Just like its recommended to leave young puppies or kittens alone for a few hours after finding them. The same probably counts for their bigger cousins.
It also raises the question of who gets saved and who doesnt. Can we set up criteria for this? Or will the lion fandom just demand to save every doomed runt regardless of circumstance?
Is it moral to save a struggling young coalition of lions. When its this struggling that learns them to shape up or eliminates the surplus weaker males in a territory?
If we see two lions attacking eachother, how do we determine who should win? Wouldnt the excess amount of lions also cause more takeovers and cubkillings by rival males and prides?
And lets say we do help the lions and their numbers explode. Lions are still vicious carnivores. What about all the cheetah and leopards they will kill? Will we then intervene in favor of those and cull lions? Will people stand up for the much less popular hyena or will it become survival of the cutest? What about the prey animals? Or the lions fleeing the overpopulation into populated areas?
I think we ultimately would just raise issues that nature has solved eons ago. So let nature deal with the individuals and us focus on giving nature the space it needs for that.
The money and energy is much better spend on anti poaching. Increasing the size of the reserves or education anyway.
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - BA0701 - 05-20-2021
(05-20-2021, 12:06 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I can get the desire to help an animal in need. Its very commendable.
Though I wonder if it really helps those animals.
Were these animals ever in danger? Mothers and cubs are perfectly capable to finding eachother on their own. Sometimes the mothers even abandon their cubs for a little bit to distract predators from them.
Just like its recommended to leave young puppies or kittens alone for a few hours after finding them. The same probably counts for their bigger cousins.
It also raises the question of who gets saved and who doesnt. Can we set up criteria for this? Or will the lion fandom just demand to save every doomed runt regardless of circumstance?
Is it moral to save a struggling young coalition of lions. When its this struggling that learns them to shape up or eliminates the surplus weaker males in a territory?
If we see two lions attacking eachother, how do we determine who should win? Wouldnt the excess amount of lions also cause more takeovers and cubkillings by rival males and prides?
And lets say we do help the lions and their numbers explode. Lions are still vicious carnivores. What about all the cheetah and leopards they will kill? Will we then intervene in favor of those and cull lions? Will people stand up for the much less popular hyena or will it become survival of the cutest? What about the prey animals? Or the lions fleeing the overpopulation into populated areas?
I think we ultimately would just raise issues that nature has solved eons ago. So let nature deal with the individuals and us focus on giving nature the space it needs for that.
The money and energy is much better spend on anti poaching. Increasing the size of the reserves or education anyway.
Very good points @"Duco Ndona", every one is valid, and a great thoughtful response.
To your first question, as to if these cheetah were in danger, I cannot speak to that, as Phinda did not provide those details. But, you are entirely correct, mothers and their offspring have been finding each other forever, long before we ever took our first steps.
Your second question regarding who gets saved or where do we drawn the line, I believe is one of ethics, and perhaps the most interesting, and one that I believe causes more of us to pause and contemplate than any of the others. Personally, I wish we could help any animal we can, especially when you are profitting from the mere existence of these creatures, but I don't know if that is necessarily the correct decision. Using your analogy, if you see a young puppy on the side of the road injured, do you leave it or assist it, what about a bear cub, or an alligator? As you mentioned where do we draw the line? While I feel we should help where we can, I completely understand that I am injecting emotion into a situation where it shouldn't be, and I am not sure my way of thinking is the right or ethical choice. Say those injuries, or the fact that an baby animal is separated from it mother is the result of human actions and not nature, perhaps the bear cub was hit by a car, do we then intervene? The causation wasn't natural, which returns us the that invisible, yet no less important, line. I personally witnessed park rangers in Cades Cove in the Smoky Mountains, preparing to euthanize 4 uninjured bears (a mother and 3 cubs), a direct result of human carelessness. So, to answer your question, at a minimum, I believe intervention is warranted when humans are the cause of a particular issue. If some person drives off into the brush in Kruger, and runs over a lion, and that lion can be saved by verterinary care, then personally I believe such intervention is justified. I understand nature is cruel (just ask any given prey animal), and do not neccessarlity believe we should intervene with nature taking it's course (though my more compassionate side might argue differently, thus creating this internal conflict that I believe most of us can understand), but I do if the ocurrence is an unnatural one. Do we take the fishing net off of a whale, or the snare from around a lion's neck?
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - Duco Ndona - 05-21-2021
A puppy or other domesticated animal should be helped. These are animals that have been completely dependent from us from the start as opposed to a wild animal.
The best way we can help nature is to give it the space to do its own thing.
An animal stuck in a snare, net or otherwise hurt by human activity Offcource didn't get the space it needed from us. So intervening is right in these circumstances.
The same with introducing locally extinct animals in the local ecosystem like wolves. As while the changes to nature are huge. They are intended to revert damage earlier done to it.
Similarly, a animal that is critically endangered is allowed to receive more help than a common one to offset our damage to the species.
The only real examples that break this rule is the prevention of epidemics or other large events that could severely hurt the local wildlife population if left unchecked. Or activities that only minimally bother the animals but helps them indirectly. Like holding safaris to fund anti poacher programs or chasing lions away from a carcas to check if it was poached..
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - BA0701 - 05-24-2021
(05-13-2021, 05:24 AM)Timbavati Wrote: Such a sad news, We possible have lost another legend! For what I heard from this photographer 1/2 Bayala males in Phinda Game Reserve is found dead. Shocking news, but we should waiting for clarification and updates from local rangers. Really sad news.
PC: VW wildlife Photography
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is a great breakdown of what exactly happened in this incident. Seems the Bayala males were way north of their own territory, chasing the two northern males in their own territory.
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - lionuk - 05-24-2021
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - Tonpa - 05-26-2021
"The North coalition of male lions did what many understood to be as a long lasting debate. Who would conquer who in the ultimate match up between North and South lions.
A few weeks back this match became a reality and sadly one of the South males was killed in the North. A completely wild, natural event, of which there will be only one winner. Featured here is the smaller of the North males, presumably the one who had the sharp end of the formidable match up. Now venturing deeper into Southern territory, he is seen mating with one of the Mountain lionesses. I can’t help but wonder how far he may venture..."
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - Tonpa - 05-26-2021
Some rough times ahead for the last bayala male
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - lionuk - 05-26-2021
Bayala Male.
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-27-2021
The photogenic "Vin" of the Nehimba male coalition, rulers in the area in the northwest of Hwange National Park and dominant over the Horses pride!
#HwangeNationalPark
By Brendan Judge Photography
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-27-2021
Bold and beautiful- 1/5 Bhejane boys coalition his vibrant mane blowing in the wind!!
#SomkhandaPrivateGameReserve
By Lauren Tyla Humphreys
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-27-2021
-king of the plains- The Spooner males (Casanova in the pic)-
"It was early morning when two majestic males made their way around Hippo Loop
There's always something impressive about these animals, rightly noted as the king of the jungle"
#PilanesberNationalPark
By Rya-Mari's photography
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-27-2021
A brilliant shot of one of the two young HillsNek males rulers of the Amkhala Game Reserve!
#AmkhalaGameReserve
By Brad_louwrens
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-27-2021
Two young males were relocated from the Tswalu Game Reserve to Madikwe to diversify the gene pool.
"This week we welcomed two male lions to Madikwe from Tswalu Game Reserve. The vet flew to Tswalu where the lions were darted and loaded on the plane and safely escorted to Madikwe where they will spend 6 - 8 weeks in the boma to get used to their new environment. These two new additions will assist in increasing the genetic viability within the lion population of Madikwe. This expedition was proudly sponsored by the Morukuru Goodwill Foundation."
#MadikweGameReserve
Morukuru Family Madikwe
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-28-2021
Battle tested!!
One of the North males who recently killed Scar from the Bayala pride...
You can see he still carries the battle scars from the encounter... What a brute of a lion!
#PhindaPrivateGameReserve
By @andbeyondphinda
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lions in South-Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia - titose - 05-31-2021
Legend of Kapama!
Back to 2015 with the male known as Moria Madoda aka "One-Eyed" at this point this guy had not yet faced his three sons and they had not caused him the injury that currently characterizes him!!!!
#KapamaPrivateGameReserve
Photo taken in March 2015
By Gerhard van der Westhuizen
*This image is copyright of its original author