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+--- Thread: Who is the "King" of the bears? (/topic-who-is-the-king-of-the-bears)
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - GrizzlyClaws - 10-27-2016
The real strict carnivorous competitor for the Pleistocene Polar bears would be the giant Arctodus simus subspecies from Yukon and Alaska.
I wonder how would the Pleistocene Polar bears fare against them?
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - sanjay - 10-27-2016
I have not gained knowledge when it comes to prehistoric bear, So i will vote brown bear (Kodiak Bear) as the king of bear becasue I think they are similar to polar bear in weight and dimension but more aggressive
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - brotherbear - 10-30-2016
My vote is for the brown bear. When I read about the fierce grizzlies of the American West before the simultaneous invention of modern rifles and California gold rush, I know that the grizzly was once an even larger and more aggressive bear than those we know today. This also holds true for the European brown bear which was venerated by the ancient and medieval peoples of that area. It took a long and bloody war against the bear to reduce him to the modern, mostly vegetarian honey-eater that he is today.
The brown bear once lived alongside the giant cave bear. It was the brown bear who survived. In North America, the grizzly outlasted the giant short-faced bears. Global Climate Change is now a threat to the natural world. Of all the bears, mighty king of the arctic appears to be in the greatest danger.
The brown bear has coexisted with lions, tigers, scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, giant wolves, and giant hyenas. Yet, he remains with us to this day. He is a great survivor.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - Polar - 10-31-2016
(10-30-2016, 09:48 PM)brotherbear Wrote: My vote is for the brown bear. When I read about the fierce grizzlies of the American West before the simultaneous invention of modern rifles and California gold rush, I know that the grizzly was once an even larger and more aggressive bear than those we know today. This also holds true for the European brown bear which was venerated by the ancient and medieval peoples of that area. It took a long and bloody war against the bear to reduce him to the modern, mostly vegetarian honey-eater that he is today.
The brown bear once lived alongside the giant cave bear. It was the brown bear who survived. In North America, the grizzly outlasted the giant short-faced bears. Global Climate Change is now a threat to the natural world. Of all the bears, mighty king of the arctic appears to be in the greatest danger.
The brown bear has coexisted with lions, tigers, scimitar cats, saber-toothed cats, giant wolves, and giant hyenas. Yet, he remains with us to this day. He is a great survivor.
Polar bears have survived Homotherium groups, ancient brown bears, and giant arctic wolves as well. But, regardless, both have their competition struggles in their habitats.
As for adaptability, I will agree that brown bears have it more (smaller size achieved this) than polar or short-faced bears.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - GrizzlyClaws - 10-31-2016
@
Don't forget about the two Black bear species, they are also the peer to the Brown bear when it comes as the ultimate survivors.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - brotherbear - 10-31-2016
(10-31-2016, 03:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: @brotherbear
Don't forget about the two Black bear species, they are also the peer to the Brown bear when it comes as the ultimate survivors.
Yes, the black bears were right there. They were and still are amazing climbers; quick up a tree at the first hint of danger. It is the fact that the brownies were on the ground where their only options were fight or flee that impresses me. I believe that the black and brown bear's ability to sleep through the winter months along with their wide range of food choices were and are their greatest advantages. I don't see the short-faced bears as diggers or fishers. I believe that the diets of both cave bears and short-faced bears were more limited.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - GuateGojira - 10-31-2016
Hello guys. Great topic!!!
Could you put some comparison images or measurements too (size and weights)?
By the way, I think you should include the Arctotherium bonariense in the list too.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - Polar - 10-31-2016
(10-31-2016, 03:57 AM)brotherbear Wrote:(10-31-2016, 03:36 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: @brotherbear
Don't forget about the two Black bear species, they are also the peer to the Brown bear when it comes as the ultimate survivors.
Yes, the black bears were right there. They were and still are amazing climbers; quick up a tree at the first hint of danger. It is the fact that the brownies were on the ground where their only options were fight or flee that impresses me. I believe that the black and brown bear's ability to sleep through the winter months along with their wide range of food choices were and are their greatest advantages. I don't see the short-faced bears as diggers or fishers. I believe that the diets of both cave bears and short-faced bears were more limited.
Under section II about prey hunting, short-faced bears are quite weak within that category. They mainly scavenged and intimidated other carnivore competitors with their extreme size, but rarely ever hunted.
With cave bears, it's a flip-flop. Some cave bears were extremely carnivorous, yet some of those exclusively carnivorous cave bears might have mainly scavenged and others might have actively hunted on a regular basis. And of course, most of the other cave bears are herbivorous.
Brown bear wins section II when it comes to the aforementioned bears, especially with ancient grizzlies and their near hyper-carnivorous diet in the Pleistocene and Early Modern era. But the brown bear has no chance, again, against the polar bear or Agriotherium when it comes to that same section.
I don't know that much about black bear predation to categorize it on the second section with any bear. I do know that some target humans as prey, but I don't know whether regularly or on rare circumstances (when both meet). Most black bear (in both continents) seem to be quite omnivorous, more so herbivorous, than brown bears to me. If this is true, they are stuck with the cave and short-faced bears in section II, under the brown bear.
But the black bear, being smaller and just as adaptable as the brown bear, is comparable to the brown bear in terms of adaptability in hibernation, escaping danger, etc... but not domination of the competitors around.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - GuateGojira - 10-31-2016
A few pages and documents about the short faced bear:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02724630903416027?needAccess=true
http://www.tc.gov.yk.ca/publications/Short_faced_bear_1996.pdf
http://www.beringia.com/exhibit/ice-age-animals/giant-short-faced-bear
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=232
https://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/extinct-short-faced-bear/195-how-big-was-this-short-faced-bear.html
You will found them very interesting.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - Polar - 10-31-2016
A long read about the habitat structure and feeding habits of giant short-faced bears and Agriotherium:
Ecomorphology of the giant short-faced bears Agriotherium and Arctodus
[attachment=634]
Also, notice how the condylobasal skull length of both these bears are quite similar. This must mean that, relative to skull size, the Agriotherium with the 465.0 mm skull was lighter than the Arctodus with the 463.0 mm skull, since Arctodus's skull was smaller in proportion to body size. In US units, and according to the corresponding table, the aforementioned Agriotherium skull length would be a tiny bit more than 18.5".
This is only based off of skull length, not humeral length/width or femur length/width.
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - brotherbear - 10-31-2016
I am finding very little mention of Arctotherium bonariense. But, what Little I am finding is interesting. I will have to dig deeper into the world of the short-faced bears.
http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxonposition/id608915/
system Vitae - living organisms
domain Eukaryota Whittaker & Margulis, 1978 - lifeforms with nucletic cells
superregnum Unikonta
system Opisthokonta Cavalier-Smith, 1987
kingdom Animalia Linnaeus, 1758 - animals
subregnum Eumetazoa Butschli, 1910
divisio Bilateria Hatschek, 1888 - Bilaterians
subdivisio Deuterostomia - deuterostomes
phylum Chordata Bateson, 1885 - chordates
subphylum Vertebrata Cuvier, 1812 - vertebrates
infraphylum Gnathostomata Zittel, 1879 - jawed vertebrates
superclassis Tetrapoda Gaffney, 1979 - four-limbed vertebrates
class Mammalia Linnaeus, 1758 - mammals
subclass Theria Parker & Haswell, 1897
infraclass Eutheria Thomas Henry Huxley, 1880
order Carnivora Bowdich, 1821 - carnivores
suborder Caniformia Kretzoi, 1938 - dog-like
superfamily Ursoidea Fischer de Waldheim, 1817
family Ursidae Fischer von Waldheim, 1817 - bears
subfamily Tremarctinae Merriam & Stock, 1925
genus Arctotherium Bravard, 1857 †
species Arctotherium bonariense (Gervais, 1852) - Buenos Aires Bear †
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - brotherbear - 10-31-2016
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223390695_The_fossil_record_of_South_American_short-faced_bears_Ursidae_Tremarctinae
Abstract
The present study includes a review of the geographic and stratigraphic distribution of short-faced bears (Ursidae, Tremarctinae) in South America. In addition, the authors discuss biogeographic hypotheses regarding the origin of South American tremarctines. The Tremarctinae subfamily is distributed exclusively in America, from Alaska to southern Patagonia. Its biochron comprises the temporal lapse between Late Miocene and recent times; the first record of Tremarctinae in North America corresponds to the Hemphillian and the last to the Rancholabrean. In South America, the first record corresponds to the Ensenadan. In the present day, it corresponds to the only living tremarctine, the ‘Andean Bear,’ but short-faced bears became extinct during the early Holocene. The extinction of short-faced bears in North and South America appears to have been approximately synchronous. Finally, the fossil record in South America indicates species turnover between the Ensenadan and Bonaerian, during which time the giant species Arctotherium angustidens was replaced by Arctotherium tarijense, Arctotherium bonaeriense, and Arctotherium vetustum (and probably Arctotherium wingei).
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - Polar - 10-31-2016
Also, take a look at the canine measurements chart from the same study that I referenced within my last post:
[attachment=635]
Note the tiger and lion canine width/length ratios, as a side note...
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - GrizzlyClaws - 10-31-2016
Some Panthera atrox specimen got wider muzzle than Arctodus simus. That's totally unexpected...
RE: Who is the "King" of the bears? - brotherbear - 10-31-2016
Ursus arctos :
Section 1 - Body/Skull Size - The brown bears have the greatest size range of all the bears. Perhaps this too is a great survival trait. The Kodiak bear is roughly triple the size of a barren ground grizzly. The Boone and Crockett record bear skulls are all brown bears. But when considering the fossil record, Arctodus simus is probably the champ. A brown bear of any 'subspecies' has the potential of being a huge bear given a healthy environment and a rich food supply. Several years ago, I visited 'Tiger World' in North Carolina. They have a pair of Syrian brown bears. The boar, named Brutus, is huge - appearing to dwarf the resident lions and tigers. In the wild, Syrian brown bears are among the smallest of brown bears.
Section 2 - Prey Habbits - Brown bears are capable of taking down large prey. This has been proven in the various bear vs bull fight records of Mexico, Old California, the Roman arena, and a few other places in the past. There have been a few cases in modern times of grizzlies killing moose and bison. However, although capable, brown bears usually live up to Baloo's song "Bare Necessities" and rarely take chances. Their usual prey consists of elk calves and other small prey. Also, they are not such capable hunters as to seek out swift running deer or antelope.
Section 3 - Competition with Other Predators - Top notch. A carcass is usually dominated by a grizzly. I have watched a big boar successfully defend a carcass from a pack of 20 wolves with no trouble. From every video I have witnessed and every article I have read, in the far North, the highly aggressive barren ground grizzly shows no fear of his much bigger cousin, the polar bear.
In the R.F.E., it is truthfully unclear what takes place when a grizzly and a tiger are both interested in a carcass. More data is needed.
Without any doubts, life for a female brown bear with cubs living among other large predators is a life of great difficulty.