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+--- Thread: Survey - The Future of Big Cats (/topic-survey-the-future-of-big-cats)
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Sully - 08-14-2016
@Polar but in that adaption time the other cats with immediate advantages may wipe out the lions before they get a chance to change.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Polar - 08-14-2016
(08-14-2016, 06:09 AM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: @Polar but in that adaption time the other cats with immediate advantages may wipe out the lions before they get a chance to change.
Are they directly competing against each other?
RE: The Future of Big Cats - GrizzlyClaws - 08-14-2016
(08-13-2016, 06:37 PM)Spalea Wrote:(08-13-2016, 12:44 AM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: In my opinion the tiger and the leopard come off best in most of these. Given there are both that live in hot and cold climates, and in the tigers case are fond to water, it is their forte (comparatively to the other cats)
Lions wouldn't have any difficulties to live in cold climates too. After all, before the humanity invasion they were the most widespread big cats around the Earth (Europa, Africa, Asia, not including north America with panthera Atrox)... And we see as concerns the captive lions, they don' t have have any problem to live in cold countries. To tell the truth all big cats, provided they have enough big preys, can live almost everywhere (except in the polar regions).
On the other hand, of course the small cats have far more capacities to survive against the human expansion in Earth. We have just only to see how the domestic cat was able to survive and thrive in a hard environment like the australian desert. I saw a documentary about this fact several years ago, it was astouning !
Panthera leo would have fully replaced both Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox if the disappearance of the grassland in Eurasia didn't occur at the end of the Pleistocene.
Because of that, the expansion of Panthera leo literally stopped at Central Asia. Otherwise, we would have a chance to see Panthera leo roaming in Siberia and North America in the modern time.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Sully - 08-16-2016
@Polar yes
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Polar - 08-16-2016
@SVTIGRIS,
Oh, okay. However, if a large pride (or prides) of lions were to theoretically step foot in the territories of the Amur Tiger, it seems that (even without the natural cold-adaptation) the lions would force some tigers out of their territories.
Athough, in conjunction with what happened when groups of lions were released in Gir back then, tigers could sometimes ambush (and mostly kill) an unlucky few who strode too far out of their pride's range.
Coupled with freezing conditions, and the result would be a reduction in the initial lion population. Chances of them successfully dominating tigers will go down.
As a group, these newcoming lions should do their best to stray together at all times (and huddle) if they want good chances to ruin the tigers' territorial control.
As for the leopards, look at how great leopards are surviving in Asia beside the tigers, and in Africa beside the lions. I think the same will still occur within the Amur region, with both the Amur Tigers and the "Amur Lion" prides in competition.
For the leopard, it's definite survival.
For the bigger rivals, however, it is a 50/50 probability.......
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Spalea - 08-16-2016
The leopards would do what they have always done with bigger predators. Leopard fend for themselves very well in the biotops dominated by lions and tigers. On the other hand, killing and eating the same big preys, lions and tigers would be in direct competition. Dense vegetation ? The tiger would have the upper hand. Otherwise, if the lions can live in groups they would prevail...
All that if there is no more men... If not, the lions living in groups, they are more vulnerable, leopards and tigers being much more secretive felids. Even if the lions can modify their behaviour to a certain extent.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - brotherbear - 08-16-2016
If all living animals were living in a single great landmass, one huge continent, as it sounds like where this debate is being described, I do not believe that one or two big cat species would terminate the others. Modern day lions are dynamically suited for hot dry climates in open terrain. I don't believe that they would begin living in forests already occupied by tigers. Neither do I think that tigers would suddenly begin hunting in the savanna already occupied by lions. Certainly there would be confrontations in isolated instances in locations bordering between grassland and forest, but neither the lion nor the tiger would force the other into extinction.
I do believe that there would be some heavy competition between the leopard, jaguar, and the non-pantherine cougar especially in forests and jungles. But they would learn the pecking order and should be able to coexist.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - brotherbear - 08-16-2016
GrizzlyClaws says: Panthera leo would have fully replaced both Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox if the disappearance of the grassland in Eurasia didn't occur at the end of the Pleistocene.
Because of that, the expansion of Panthera leo literally stopped at Central Asia. Otherwise, we would have a chance to see Panthera leo roaming in Siberia and North America in the modern time.
*How would Panthera leo have done this? Curious.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Spalea - 08-16-2016
(08-16-2016, 12:13 PM)brotherbear Wrote: GrizzlyClaws says: Panthera leo would have fully replaced both Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox if the disappearance of the grassland in Eurasia didn't occur at the end of the Pleistocene.
Because of that, the expansion of Panthera leo literally stopped at Central Asia. Otherwise, we would have a chance to see Panthera leo roaming in Siberia and North America in the modern time.
*How would Panthera leo have done this? Curious.
The advantages of the social life, I presume... Especially in open spaces/lands ! Even if they would have had some other rivals: wolves (in bigger prides) and to a lesser extent (because they don't have exactly the same food and behaviour) the bears.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - GrizzlyClaws - 08-16-2016
@
The only shortcoming for Panthera leo is that they rely too much on the open areas such as grassland and savannah. It is quite possible that Panthera leo and Panthere spelaea used to co-exist during the late Pleistocene in the southern part of Europe, with Panthera leo ended up triumph over its rival.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - brotherbear - 08-17-2016
In Pleistocene North America, the giant jaguar, the scimitar cat, the saber-toothed cat, and the American lion all coexisted somehow. Did they share the same environment? It is my understanding that Smilodon preferred bison, horses, and camels whereas Homotherium was a killer of juvenile mammoths ( probably a night hunter ). Any clues as to the prey choices of the giant jaguar or atrox?
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Spalea - 08-17-2016
(08-17-2016, 02:50 AM)brotherbear Wrote: In Pleistocene North America, the giant jaguar, the scimitar cat, the saber-toothed cat, and the American lion all coexisted somehow. Did they share the same environment? It is my understanding that Smilodon preferred bison, horses, and camels whereas Homotherium was a killer of juvenile mammoths ( probably a night hunter ). Any clues as to the prey choices of the giant jaguar or atrox?
A very good book as concerns the ... Big cats and their fossiles relatives ! Edition: Columbia.
Prey of the panthera atrox: large bovids (pleistocene bisons, a large "naturally freeze dried mummy" of a bison found in Alaska clear marks and claws and teeth... Teeth marks punctured and not ripped (it would be the case of homotherium, the other big felid present in the area, the kill would be occured in autumn because the glacial temperature caused the body to freeze before going to be consumed, thus this kill was not made by a large pride. A carnassial teeth was found in the skin and it was an atrox lion's teeth).
For the giant jaguar: short legged horses of the genius hippidion (upper pleistocene of Chile). Horses became totally extinct in the Americas at the end of the pleistocene before to be reintroduced by the european colonists...
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: The Future of Big Cats - brotherbear - 08-17-2016
Thank you Spalea. I will have to order a copy of that book from Amazon. Sounds interesting.
RE: The Future of Big Cats - Sully - 08-17-2016
@
RE: The Future of Big Cats - brotherbear - 08-17-2016
(08-17-2016, 05:38 AM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: @brotherbearthe climates are seperated into different scenarios. What I mean is that there is one climate for all cats in one scenario. Another for another, ect.
Understood. Pleistocene North America proves to us that multiple big cats are capable of living within the same environment. However, as you have mentioned, the lion is fully capable of adapting to a sub-arctic environment if there is a niche open to him. But, I do not believe that lions could successfully invade a location already occupied and dominated by tigers. Likewise, I doubt that tigers could successfully move into a location already occupied by lions. To adapt to a new environment which is totally different from that which a species has dwelled for perhaps a million years takes time; lots of time. I believe that lions will remain creatures of the open savanna and tigers will remain forest creatures. There are no lions living in the Congo.