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+----- Thread: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros (/topic-lion-predation-on-the-african-black-rhinoceros)
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 12-02-2015
Weird, what could they be talking about? Maybe the Tasmanian tiger?
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - GuateGojira - 12-05-2015
The information that the Romans had about the tiger came from Caspian and Bengal specimens; Greeks only know a skin (from India) and some testimonies, nothing more. However, they were always rare and it seems that 4 where the maximum number presented in public, ever! Image this, for comparison, when hundreds of lions were presented, and killed, in one single act.
There is no doubt that tigers were always a rarity in the ancient Europe. By the way, I think that it would be a good idea to create a topic about animals in the ancient world. Give me some time and I am going to scan the full chapter about this theme in the book of Thapar "Tiger: the ultimate guide".
Now, let's continue with the point of the topic.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Dr Panthera - 01-20-2016
Lion predation on rhinos is mainly opportunistic yet widely reported, everywhere from Etosha to Kruger and from Natal to the Serengeti there are reports of lions killing rhinos from both species and from calves to adult bulls ( Pienaar, Richards, Mitchell, Joubert, and others).
It is interesting however that lion prides do not become specialist rhino hunters like some prides did with elephants , hippos, and giraffes, rhinos exist at very low densities all over their range, they are well protected by armed guards in many habitats ( human interference ), rhinos also live in small groups and are well armed and difficult to subdue, so all in all the cost of searching for them and overpowering them versus the reward is not worth it for most lions.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Spalea - 10-17-2016
Of course this is the french version of a good old (1961) book about lion "Simba, life and behaviour of lion" by C.A.W Guggisberg. This book also exists in english (I saw it)... If you can understand the french language... If not I will try to translate the text relating the death of one adult and an other one subadult rhinos, both attacked by two male lions.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
I'm only going to speak on my personal experience with my opinion, take it for what you will.
The odds of seeing a black Rhino in Tanzania are extremely rare, it's not something you come across often, it's hardest of the Big 5 to spot, by a long shot.
The odds of seeing a kill by lions are probably more rare, the odds of seeing said kill from start to finish are even less likely.
I can't translate what is said, but to see a predation on a black rhino happening would be 1/1,000,000 I think.
After seeing Serengeti Lions and a sub/adult or young adult bull black rhino, there is not a chance on earth that two males are taking it down. If one is sick, injured, young or old, obviously those odds rise for the Lions.
But healthy, adult black rhino, male or female, it ain't happening.
And lets say that as unlikely as all of the aforementioned scenarios occurring take place and you are lucky enough to witness this attempt, the amount of time needed to watch a successful predation would be extremely long. I'd say you'd probably be watching a half day or all day affair, being able to view such an event from start to finish is just beyond belief for me.
Look, I know lions can bring down bull capes but from what I saw and heard, the big healthy Cape bulls, they are usually the more dominant species. Of course pride size can dictate terms but 2 males going after a big bull cape in his prime, that's a seriously heavyweight fight that has serious danger written all over it for both sides.
As big and scary as bachelor capes are, they are not holding a candle to the young bull Black Rhino we saw, and he wasn't even full grown yet. I just can't imagine any big cat being able to take down a Rhino in it's prime.
Just my 2 cents.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Spalea - 10-18-2016
Approximative translation:
"Does it happens that some lions attack an adult rhino ? Oskar Baumann, explorer who has discovered in the fantastic Ngorongoro crater in 1892, thought that a great male lion he found near a rhino's corpse, had also killed him. But we can also think that the animal was already dead from any other way, and that Simba took over his remains (hide, skin).On the other hand, the sweedish naturalist Wahlberg has effectively seen an attack of a rhino by several lions. The fight was terrible and the big beast was finally killed by the big cats. A Wahlberg's compatriot ,C.J. Anderson shooted at a rhino: a couple of lions attacked him immediately; despite his serious wounds, he succeeded getting rid of felids, but was killed next morningby the hunter.
A fight between two male lions and an almost adult rhino has recently occured in the immediate vicinity of the Old Tukailodge in the Amboseli park.The keeper, the major W.H.M Taberer, knew this rhino very well and believed that he got on with the pride of lions, which inhabited his territory, very well. Moreover, sometimes he saw him litteraly surrounded by the big cats, near a water source. In Npvember 1937, during a period when the Old Tukai district was very low in prey, Taberer heard an acute groan. Gone with his land rover, their headlights revealed/showed him a nightmare scene: the poor rhino of the lodge had been litterally throwed by two male lions which, lying on him, "searched through" him with their teeth and claws. The major managed to hunt the two crooks, but had to admit that he was unable to do something for the rhino. One of his front paw was broken and he had nothing to do but putting an end to his suffering by killing him. Tomorrow morning, the whole pride gathered together around the corpse. For once, the male lions, usually so lazy, have got a good meal for the lionesses and cubs."
When I told you I was not good at translating !...
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Spalea - 10-18-2016
@Pckts:
About #20: I don't pretend that these stories (#19 approximately translated in #21) were quite true (somebody relates that somebody saw...). These are old stories which has occured more than sixty years ago. Nevertheless Guggisberg is a famous naturalist who spent his life in Kenya and Tanzania and who cannot be suspected of relating some craps. Of course too, during this period, the knowledge we had were not as complete as the actual ones.
He related a sub adult rhino almost killed by two male lions, an adult rhino killed by a whole pride of lions, a wounded rhino mugged but not killed by two lions. That's all ! So, nothing impossible.
Agree with you, an adult rhino, black or white, cannot be killed by two male lions without a very favorable combination of circumstances.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
"In Npvember 1937, during a period when the Old Tukai district was very low in prey, Taberer heard an acute groan. Gone with his land rover, their headlights revealed/showed him a nightmare scene: the poor rhino of the lodge had been litterally throwed by two male lions which, lying on him, "searched through" him with their teeth and claws."
So he came across it, never witnessed it occur?
The crater one in 1892, same thing, he just came across the corpse.
This is also a bit suspect
"Wahlberg has effectively seen an attack of a rhino by several lions. The fight was terrible and the big beast was finally killed by the big cats. A Wahlberg's compatriot ,C.J. Anderson shooted at a rhino: a couple of lions attacked him immediately; despite his serious wounds, he succeeded getting rid of felids, but was killed next morningby the hunter."
So they shot the rhino which was then immediately attacked by lions?
Then the lions didn't succeed in killing it so they shot it the next morning and finished it off?
Even if these actually happened, none portray a scene of pure predation imo.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Spalea - 10-18-2016
During the 1892, 1937 years and so on, nobody could make some photos like now, like anybody now with an iphone, smartphone... They just related what they saw. But they didn't see the whole predation scenes, that is tragic... One heard a groan, and guided by this sound, come in front of a subadult rhino throwed by two lions.
Then you mixed the Wahlberg's and the Anderson's testimony. In the first one the rhino was not shooted before by the hunter (read it again) who only saw the fight without intervening. And he spoke about several lions (several > 2) which attacked the rhino. What is there suspect ?
But why would be it impossible ? We spoke from a period when the wild life was much more plentiful than now. But among testimonies, mostly of them consisted only of oral (then writted) depictions...
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 03:37 AM)Spalea Wrote: During the 1892, 1937 years and so on, nobody could make some photos like now, like anybody now with an iphone, smartphone... They just related what they saw. But they didn't see the whole predation scenes, that is tragic... One heard a groan, and guided by this sound, come in front of a subadult rhino throwed by two lions.
Then you mixed the Wahlberg's and the Anderson's testimony. In the first one the rhino was not shooted before by the hunter (read it again) who only saw the fight without intervening. And he spoke about several lions (several > 2) which attacked the rhino. What is there suspect ?
But why would be it impossible ? We spoke from a period when the wild life was much more plentiful than now. But among testimonies, mostly of them consisted only of oral (then writted) depictions...
That's not what it says though
"The fight was terrible and the big beast was finally killed by the big cats. A Wahlberg's compatriot ,C.J. Anderson shooted at a rhino: a couple of lions attacked him immediately; despite his serious wounds, he succeeded getting rid of felids, but was killed next morningby the hunter."
and the other account
"In Npvember 1937, during a period when the Old Tukai district was very low in prey, Taberer heard an acute groan. Gone with his land rover, their headlights revealed/showed him a nightmare scene: the poor rhino of the lodge had been litterally throwed by two male lions which, lying on him, "searched through" him with their teeth and claws. "
Shows that he never witnessed the account, only came across it at night after hearing it and It reads like they were already tearing into him. He also had a broken "paw" which could of also occurred and been a contributing factor to the alleged death.
Also I never said it was "impossible" I said it was very, very unlikely from what I have seen.
2 males = 400kg vs double to triple that weight attached to a bad tempered and strong animal. I see no reason for 2 lions to give a rhino a go and in modern history have yet to find anything that would back that. A lion pride, sure, extenuating circumstances like listed, of course.
But a healthy adult Rhino vs 2 healthy Male lions, I just don't see that being possible. Unless we are talking about a long, drawn out fight taking place over a long period of time and definitely not easily viewed unless the person is there for an all day affair.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pckts - 10-18-2016
This is what I mean, rhinos are just bulldozers. 2 Males aren't slowing it down so their only hope is a long, drawn out hunt and definitely not easily viewed.
This isn't just a "lion" thing either, I have been within inches of a Male Indian Rhino, No way a single tiger is taking that down, not a chance!
The one adult rhino I know of being predated on by a Tiger was very old or sick female, obviously in poor health.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pantherinae - 10-18-2016
@Pckts I would't say a Cape Buffalo dosen't hold a candle to a black rhino, I have also seen both and some of the biggest cape's I saw in the Mara did look just as massive as a female black rhino.. Aswell as the attitude of them are just beyond anything from any other herbivores, I remember the old bull in Boraas zoo in Sweeden when I worked there he was so aggressive and dominated even female elephants. Returned there in the summmer and they had put him down because he was to aggressive and was a danger for the workers. Still I think rhinos are the tougher prey item, by far.
There are a video of a lion (sure you have seen it) killing a hefty young adult white rhino. So maybe small and when in pair's lion can kill rhinos that a young and sick. There are this report of two males killing a female rhino, with a picture of the event.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Pantherinae - 10-18-2016
Here is the clip
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Skybed - 10-18-2016
@Ngala
thank you for leading me to this thread:)
@Pantherinae regarding post #02
wow what a detailed compilation of events thks!
The occurrence on the lioness being gored and the episode of the three males lion leaving the rhino uneaten after killing it in particular, left a deep impression in me. Great stuff!
And also the time it took for the injured mother rhino to eventually die is really lengthy. Poor rhino.
RE: Lion predation on the African Black Rhinoceros - Skybed - 10-18-2016
@Pantherinae regarding post #28
omg that's brutal. Nature at its rawest. Poor rhino