(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattes body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground, his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission? 

(04-25-2020, 02:04 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 01:59 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 01:51 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 01:45 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: What do you think about this situation? Is the tiger afraid of the lion? Or does he find him annoying but not really dangerous? Or anything else? 

My opinion is that it is not scared but definitely submissive, the lion is clearly more aggressive and dominant. They're in a horrible small enclosure so it makes sense they will be frustrated.

Why do you think that the tiger is submissive? What I see is that the tiger easily repelled the attack of the lion. Then he walks across the enclosure in a confident way...while the lion is aggressive, but rather nervous than dominant. See 0:33 - the lion tried another attack, but gave it up when he saw that the tiger is ready. Then the tiger lay down, obviously wanted to have a rest, the lion did not respect that so the tiger chased him away. 

Thats what I see.

The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. I didn't see the lion as nervous but rather frustrated and stressed which then translated to aggression.

Quote:"Leyhausen also indicated that aggression in felids is more regulated by effective defenses than responsive to the submission signals that are quite effective in reducing intra-group fighting in many canid species, such as wolves and dogs. By selecting animals and arranging situations, Leyhausen was able to polarize attack and defensive behaviors in domesticated cat subjects, or, alternatively, to maximize attack motivations for both combatants. In a highly polarized attack-defend situation, the attacker stands tall and advances directly toward the victim while emitting low growls. The defending animal crouches down, or, with a mixture of aggressive and fearful motives, may assume the classic “Halloween cat” stance with arched back, and erected hairs. As the attacker approaches contact, the defending animal may assume a contorted posture, half on its back but facing the other cat, enabling both fore- and hindpaws to be drawn up and opposed to the oncoming attacker. This stance conceals the nape, the major target site for intraspecific offensive attack. Both fore- and hindpaws may lash out at the attacker and disembowelment of the attacker is possible, particularly if it attempts to reach over to bite at the partly supine defender's nape. However, when both animals are highly motivated to attack, a frontal approach is typically utilized by both, resulting in animals facing each other and delivering forepaw blows largely toward the head and neck of the other."

Quote:Threats and aggression can be either offensive or defensive. An offensively aggressive cat tries to make himself look bigger and more intimidating, whereas a defensively aggressive cat adopts a self-protective posture and tries to make himself look smaller. The following are typical postures seen in feline aggression. A rule of thumb is to not touch, attempt to reassure, or punish cats showing these postures!"

"Offensive postures include:

• A stiff, straight-legged upright stance
• Stiffened rear legs, with the rear end raised and the back sloped downward toward the head
• Tail is stiff and lowered or held straight down to the ground
• Direct stare
• Upright ears, with the backs rotated slightly forward
• Piloerection (hackles up), i
  

• ncluding fur on the tail
• Constricted pupils
• Directly facing opponent, possibly moving toward him
• Might be growling, howling or yowling
  

Defensive postures include:

• Crouching
• Head tucked in
• Tail curved around the body and tucked in
• Eyes wide open with pupils partially or fully dilated
• Ears flattened sideways or backward on the head
• Piloerection (hackles up)
• In an anxious cat, whiskers might be retracted. In a fearful cat, whiskers might pan out and forward to assess distance between himself and the danger
• Turning sideways to the opponent, not straight on
• Open-mouthed hissing or spitting
• Might deliver quick strikes with front paws, claws out
  

(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattens body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground (in 1:02), his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission? 

(04-25-2020, 02:04 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. I didn't see the lion as nervous but rather frustrated and stressed which then translated to aggression.

(04-25-2020, 12:32 PM)Rishi Wrote: (or initiated, i heard they finally separated them).

(04-25-2020, 01:05 PM)Dennis Wrote: She's always quick to call people bias that have a different opinion from her, making her the most bias of them all :) I know her from the Carnivora forum...

...The lion fanboys who keep saying that to make people believe lions are 'too' dominant or something. That is the only place where I heard that.

(04-25-2020, 02:16 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: ...and I know you're biased towards the tiger so it would be pointless.

(04-25-2020, 02:16 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattes body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground, his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission? 

Ok I'm not gonna start another lion vs tiger endless back and forth on here.

But lowering the head and sticking to the ground is classical submissive behavior, the tiger is not looking to attack otherwise it would be standing up with its shoulders high and his head straight to accept the challenge. The lion in that video also has a problem with his hind legs and even with that, it fended off nicely in standing position against the tiger. That is my conclusion about that video.

(04-25-2020, 02:24 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 01:05 PM)Dennis Wrote: She's always quick to call people bias that have a different opinion from her, making her the most bias of them all :) I know her from the Carnivora forum...

...The lion fanboys who keep saying that to make people believe lions are 'too' dominant or something. That is the only place where I heard that.

(04-25-2020, 02:16 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: ...and I know you're biased towards the tiger so it would be pointless.

This stuff is not tolerate here... If you're entering the conversation with intention of convincing all others to agree with your opinions, you should be prepared for disappointment. Say what you have to say & move on.

Requesting all new members to refrain from personal comments & character analysis.

(04-25-2020, 12:32 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattens body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground (in 1:02), his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission? 

In case of this duo the tiger is much larger & stronger, so his confidence shows... but that lion always initiates (or initiated, i heard they finally separated them). My guess is he tries too hard to look dominant.
But while the head bowing for tigers is definitely a defensive posture, offering cease-hostility or warning to back off, the crouching is definitely submissive... in both species. Especially because females & juveniles do that when challenged by males.

Otherwise what do you consider to tigers' posturing of submission?.. Do present an example.

(04-25-2020, 02:04 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. I didn't see the lion as nervous but rather frustrated and stressed which then translated to aggression.

Unlike lions, it seems to me that submissive behavior in tigers is quite aggressive, constantly lashing out to ward off the dominant one posturing before it. In these kind of faceoffs I've noted that the dominant tiger doesn't intend to start a bout either, turning sideways and circling around, then disengaging.
Maybe they're wired that way in order to avoid unnecessary injuries, that may prove life-threatening for solitary predators.

Quite pointless endeavour IMO. People are going to to interpret whatever they want in whatever ways suit their stand. And neutral objective analysis, is even harder to do for interspecies interactions with different social dynamics.
Anyways guys, try not to make this thread look like YouTube comment section or a shitposting forum.

(04-25-2020, 04:25 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 02:16 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:

(04-25-2020, 02:11 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: "The tiger lowers its head and sticks to the ground which is typical submissive behavior. " No, submission is different, much different. See that picture with body postures above. When tiger flattes body to the ground, he is on alert, awaiting an attack. Which makes sense in context of the situation. And when he finally lies on the ground, his message is "leave me alone". But the lion did not respect that, so the tiger chased him away...so what submission? 

Ok I'm not gonna start another lion vs tiger endless back and forth on here.

But lowering the head and sticking to the ground is classical submissive behavior, the tiger is not looking to attack otherwise it would be standing up with its shoulders high and his head straight to accept the challenge. The lion in that video also has a problem with his hind legs and even with that, it fended off nicely in standing position against the tiger. That is my conclusion about that video.

Not always, especially in a Tigers case.

Here you see both Umarpani and Jamuntoli sticking close to the ground before fighting.