(10-13-2018, 02:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Spalea Those two incidents are involving Sunderban tigers. Sunderban tigers are the smallest of Bengal tigers. They may be weighing only around 140-180kgs and also i suppose are inferiorly built than mainland tigers. So, the instincts of being gigantic if provoked is absent in them. I doubt their biteforce and overall power are same in Sunderban tigers. They aren't stocky too. All these factors contribute. Even then both articles state they are very rare incidents. That itself speaks of tigers dominance.

(10-13-2018, 03:17 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 02:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Spalea Those two incidents are involving Sunderban tigers. Sunderban tigers are the smallest of Bengal tigers. They may be weighing only around 140-180kgs and also i suppose are inferiorly built than mainland tigers. So, the instincts of being gigantic if provoked is absent in them. I doubt their biteforce and overall power are same in Sunderban tigers. They aren't stocky too. All these factors contribute. Even then both articles state they are very rare incidents. That itself speaks of tigers dominance.

When we speak about crocs killed by tigers, we don't never say "it's only Mugger croc, not saltwater croc"... If we speak about tigers killed by crocs we don't say "it's only the Sundarban tigers, the smallest of Bengal tigers". The objectivity must work in both sides. When a tiger kills a croc, you say "as usual", but in the opposite case not only you say it was a small subspecy of tiger, but also that these small Sundarban tigers are not as powerfully built. Where is the proof that the Sundarban tigers aren't as pound for pound (I know you're all fond of this expression) strong as the other Bengal tigers ? Why do you want absolutely to minimize the facts retailing some tigers killed by other animals ? Tigers are beautiful and marvelous animals but I believe we aren't allowed to say they are only animals and that, sometimes they can be vanquished.

Such fights happen very seldomly. But we absolutely need certainties in order to say "the former is stronger than the latter, always !", we have a pathological need to establish some hierarchies, strength hierarchies of course.

All this to say that I'm not convinced at all that an adult male tiger would have the upper hand against a fully adult Saltwater croc into the water.

(10-15-2018, 02:01 PM)parvez Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 03:17 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 02:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Spalea Those two incidents are involving Sunderban tigers. Sunderban tigers are the smallest of Bengal tigers. They may be weighing only around 140-180kgs and also i suppose are inferiorly built than mainland tigers. So, the instincts of being gigantic if provoked is absent in them. I doubt their biteforce and overall power are same in Sunderban tigers. They aren't stocky too. All these factors contribute. Even then both articles state they are very rare incidents. That itself speaks of tigers dominance.

When we speak about crocs killed by tigers, we don't never say "it's only Mugger croc, not saltwater croc"... If we speak about tigers killed by crocs we don't say "it's only the Sundarban tigers, the smallest of Bengal tigers". The objectivity must work in both sides. When a tiger kills a croc, you say "as usual", but in the opposite case not only you say it was a small subspecy of tiger, but also that these small Sundarban tigers are not as powerfully built. Where is the proof that the Sundarban tigers aren't as pound for pound (I know you're all fond of this expression) strong as the other Bengal tigers ? Why do you want absolutely to minimize the facts retailing some tigers killed by other animals ? Tigers are beautiful and marvelous animals but I believe we aren't allowed to say they are only animals and that, sometimes they can be vanquished.

Such fights happen very seldomly. But we absolutely need certainties in order to say "the former is stronger than the latter, always !", we have a pathological need to establish some hierarchies, strength hierarchies of course.

All this to say that I'm not convinced at all that an adult male tiger would have the upper hand against a fully adult Saltwater croc into the water.

Mainland tigers like sonam(in the video i posted in this thread) easily steals the prey from mugger crocodiles in DEEP water. Crocodiles are sluggish creatures. Their metabolism rate is very low compared to mammals. I think that is where they are capitalized at by the big cats. Big cats, particularly tigers are amazingly agile, strong, fast to capitalise on sluggishness even in water. Sonam is a tigress probably weighing around 150kgs. She fends of probably 2 crocodiles in deep water. Genghis of ranthambore ddd this almost regularly. The crocodiles have natural instinct of fear for tigers in atleast indian subcontinent. Atlast i mean to say some tigers have the potential to fight and steal prey from salties even in deep water owing to all the factors i spoke of now.

(10-15-2018, 02:01 PM)parvez Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 03:17 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 02:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Spalea Those two incidents are involving Sunderban tigers. Sunderban tigers are the smallest of Bengal tigers. They may be weighing only around 140-180kgs and also i suppose are inferiorly built than mainland tigers. So, the instincts of being gigantic if provoked is absent in them. I doubt their biteforce and overall power are same in Sunderban tigers. They aren't stocky too. All these factors contribute. Even then both articles state they are very rare incidents. That itself speaks of tigers dominance.

When we speak about crocs killed by tigers, we don't never say "it's only Mugger croc, not saltwater croc"... If we speak about tigers killed by crocs we don't say "it's only the Sundarban tigers, the smallest of Bengal tigers". The objectivity must work in both sides. When a tiger kills a croc, you say "as usual", but in the opposite case not only you say it was a small subspecy of tiger, but also that these small Sundarban tigers are not as powerfully built. Where is the proof that the Sundarban tigers aren't as pound for pound (I know you're all fond of this expression) strong as the other Bengal tigers ? Why do you want absolutely to minimize the facts retailing some tigers killed by other animals ? Tigers are beautiful and marvelous animals but I believe we aren't allowed to say they are only animals and that, sometimes they can be vanquished.

Such fights happen very seldomly. But we absolutely need certainties in order to say "the former is stronger than the latter, always !", we have a pathological need to establish some hierarchies, strength hierarchies of course.

All this to say that I'm not convinced at all that an adult male tiger would have the upper hand against a fully adult Saltwater croc into the water.

Mainland tigers like sonam(in the video i posted in this thread) easily steals the prey from mugger crocodiles in DEEP water. Crocodiles are sluggish creatures. Their metabolism rate is very low compared to mammals. I think that is where they are capitalized at by the big cats. Big cats, particularly tigers are amazingly agile, strong, fast to capitalise on sluggishness even in water. Sonam is a tigress probably weighing around 150kgs. She fends of probably 2 crocodiles in deep water. Genghis of ranthambore ddd this almost regularly. The crocodiles have natural instinct of fear for tigers in atleast indian subcontinent. Atlast i mean to say some tigers have the potential to fight and steal prey from salties even in deep water owing to all the factors i spoke of now.

(10-15-2018, 11:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-15-2018, 02:01 PM)parvez Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 03:17 PM)Spalea Wrote:

(10-13-2018, 02:45 PM)parvez Wrote: @Spalea Those two incidents are involving Sunderban tigers. Sunderban tigers are the smallest of Bengal tigers. They may be weighing only around 140-180kgs and also i suppose are inferiorly built than mainland tigers. So, the instincts of being gigantic if provoked is absent in them. I doubt their biteforce and overall power are same in Sunderban tigers. They aren't stocky too. All these factors contribute. Even then both articles state they are very rare incidents. That itself speaks of tigers dominance.

When we speak about crocs killed by tigers, we don't never say "it's only Mugger croc, not saltwater croc"... If we speak about tigers killed by crocs we don't say "it's only the Sundarban tigers, the smallest of Bengal tigers". The objectivity must work in both sides. When a tiger kills a croc, you say "as usual", but in the opposite case not only you say it was a small subspecy of tiger, but also that these small Sundarban tigers are not as powerfully built. Where is the proof that the Sundarban tigers aren't as pound for pound (I know you're all fond of this expression) strong as the other Bengal tigers ? Why do you want absolutely to minimize the facts retailing some tigers killed by other animals ? Tigers are beautiful and marvelous animals but I believe we aren't allowed to say they are only animals and that, sometimes they can be vanquished.

Such fights happen very seldomly. But we absolutely need certainties in order to say "the former is stronger than the latter, always !", we have a pathological need to establish some hierarchies, strength hierarchies of course.

All this to say that I'm not convinced at all that an adult male tiger would have the upper hand against a fully adult Saltwater croc into the water.

Mainland tigers like sonam(in the video i posted in this thread) easily steals the prey from mugger crocodiles in DEEP water. Crocodiles are sluggish creatures. Their metabolism rate is very low compared to mammals. I think that is where they are capitalized at by the big cats. Big cats, particularly tigers are amazingly agile, strong, fast to capitalise on sluggishness even in water. Sonam is a tigress probably weighing around 150kgs. She fends of probably 2 crocodiles in deep water. Genghis of ranthambore ddd this almost regularly. The crocodiles have natural instinct of fear for tigers in atleast indian subcontinent. Atlast i mean to say some tigers have the potential to fight and steal prey from salties even in deep water owing to all the factors i spoke of now.

There is a huge difference between Mugger Crocs and Salt Water Crocs, we're not talking about the 100kg or so difference between Sunderban and Mainland Tigers, we're talking about 1000kg difference between a large Saltie and a large Mugger.
A Lion or Tiger will not pose a real threat to a Big Croc in the water, outside of a prey item that can defend itself and cause damage. But that certainly will not stop Crocs from attempting predation on them, and doing so successfully and unsuccessfully as well. 

Now speaking from my first hand experience, when I was in Dubai, I went to their mall, they have a wild caught Saltie (australian) there, he's massive. There is no cat alive that I have seen that holds a candle to that beast. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

This picture does no justice to the guy, but you can watch a video on him here.

WEIGHING IN AT A WHOPPING 750 KGS AND MEASURING OVER 5M IN LENGTH, THIS MASSIVE WONDER OF THE ANIMAL KINGDOM HAS FINALLY ARRIVED AT DUBAI AQUARIUM & UNDERWATER ZOO.

(10-16-2018, 07:21 AM)parvez Wrote: @Pckts There is no 1000 kgs difference between mugger and saltie. The biggest mugger and saltie may have difference of around 200-300 kgs i guess. The mugger crocodile machli killed was a 14 foot one. Your captive saltie is 5 metres, only 2 feet longer than the mugger. I agree salt water crocs have higher biteforce and are more aggressive but what a 150kg tigress can do can't a 300 kgs tiger kill a 20 feet croc? Even brother bear said machi killed a monster. Then much bigger tigers can clearly kill 20 feet saltie ofcourse not in deep water but on land but has the ability to steal salties prey in deep water. Ofcourse they may not be able to kill saltie in deep water.

(10-16-2018, 09:24 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-16-2018, 07:21 AM)parvez Wrote: @Pckts There is no 1000 kgs difference between mugger and saltie. The biggest mugger and saltie may have difference of around 200-300 kgs i guess. The mugger crocodile machli killed was a 14 foot one. Your captive saltie is 5 metres, only 2 feet longer than the mugger. I agree salt water crocs have higher biteforce and are more aggressive but what a 150kg tigress can do can't a 300 kgs tiger kill a 20 feet croc? Even brother bear said machi killed a monster. Then much bigger tigers can clearly kill 20 feet saltie ofcourse not in deep water but on land but has the ability to steal salties prey in deep water. Ofcourse they may not be able to kill saltie in deep water.

A few things to remember, the Mugger Croc, Machli killed was never weighed nor measured, the estimated size of 14' was nothing other than just that, an estimation from a photographer who has no real background w/crocs. 
I have had a few discussions on the matter as well, if you were to give Machli the benefit of the doubt and say she is on the upper tier of Tigress measurements and you were to call her 9' TBL, it still doesn't look like the Croc is an additional 5' longer than Total Length of Machli (Tail Included.)
Realistically, that Mugger was more along the lines of 12' which I still feel is more than what it actually was, since the actual largest Mugger ever caught was 12'2'', I'm sure there are much larger ones overall but compared to a Saltie that was a legitimate 16'er and was 750kg, a large Mugger at 12' and 200kg is not in the same league.

(10-16-2018, 10:05 PM)parvez Wrote:

(10-16-2018, 09:24 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-16-2018, 07:21 AM)parvez Wrote: @Pckts There is no 1000 kgs difference between mugger and saltie. The biggest mugger and saltie may have difference of around 200-300 kgs i guess. The mugger crocodile machli killed was a 14 foot one. Your captive saltie is 5 metres, only 2 feet longer than the mugger. I agree salt water crocs have higher biteforce and are more aggressive but what a 150kg tigress can do can't a 300 kgs tiger kill a 20 feet croc? Even brother bear said machi killed a monster. Then much bigger tigers can clearly kill 20 feet saltie ofcourse not in deep water but on land but has the ability to steal salties prey in deep water. Ofcourse they may not be able to kill saltie in deep water.

A few things to remember, the Mugger Croc, Machli killed was never weighed nor measured, the estimated size of 14' was nothing other than just that, an estimation from a photographer who has no real background w/crocs. 
I have had a few discussions on the matter as well, if you were to give Machli the benefit of the doubt and say she is on the upper tier of Tigress measurements and you were to call her 9' TBL, it still doesn't look like the Croc is an additional 5' longer than Total Length of Machli (Tail Included.)
Realistically, that Mugger was more along the lines of 12' which I still feel is more than what it actually was, since the actual largest Mugger ever caught was 12'2'', I'm sure there are much larger ones overall but compared to a Saltie that was a legitimate 16'er and was 750kg, a large Mugger at 12' and 200kg is not in the same league.

If you see wikipedia page of mugger crocodile, it says males are around 13 to 14 feet long. you say the largest was 12 feet. That was the largest specimen in english museum. It is written a 5metre  long mugger can scale upto 700kgs, only 50kgs short of saltie you quoted. It does look like 12-14 feet crocodile as its tail is longer in the video and his skull is around 2feet. But i am surprised to see the estimate of 200kgs for 12feet crocodile. Rest of debate is ok.