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+---- Thread: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences (/topic-comparing-cats-a-discussion-of-similarities-differences)
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Pckts - 10-07-2020
Big game hunting around the world
By Bert Klineburger and Vernon w. Hurst
Page 83
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Pckts - 10-08-2020
Male Amur Leopard and Tigress
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Pckts - 10-12-2020
Female Leopard killed by Jaguar.
@Balam @Dark Jaguar
Can either of you give us information on what took place?
https://mais.uol.com.br/view/99at89ajv6h1/femea-de-leopardo-e-morta-por-onca-em-zoologico-do-rio-04029A3160C0C193A6?types=A
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Balam - 10-13-2020
(10-12-2020, 11:54 PM)Pckts Wrote: Female Leopard killed by Jaguar.
@Balam @Dark Jaguar
Can either of you give us information on what took place?
https://mais.uol.com.br/view/99at89ajv6h1/femea-de-leopardo-e-morta-por-onca-em-zoologico-do-rio-04029A3160C0C193A6?types=A
A 15-year-old female leopard that weighed 40 kg was killed by a jaguar through a bite in the neck. The jaguar had eaten 5 kg of meat and was intolerant of the other felid. We know jaguars are very territorial with food as can be seen in the video of the jaguar and tiger interaction while waiting to be fed in the zoo in Peru.
The jaguar, in this case, had 8 years of age and weighed 90 kg, but the sex of the jaguar was not given.
Goes to show how important size and weight difference are when a fight takes place, clearly at twice the size the jaguar was able to manhandle and kill the leopardess with ease. And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Luipaard - 10-13-2020
Not exactly a shocking result given the fact it was a 15 year old leopard and a jaguar weighing twice as much that would've been in the prime of its life if it were a wild one.
Quote:And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar.
Because unlike lionesses, jaguars can overlap with leopards in size:
Mexican jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Mexican jaguars from Yucatán Peninsula:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Belizean jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Guatemalan jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Much larger" jaguar really depends on the context (i.e.jaguar population).
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Shadow - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 12:35 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Not exactly a shocking result given the fact it was a 15 year old leopard and a jaguar weighing twice as much that would've been in the prime of its life if it were a wild one.
Quote:And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar.
Because unlike lionesses, jaguars can overlap with leopards in size:
Mexican jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Mexican jaguars from Yucatán Peninsula:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Belizean jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Guatemalan jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Much larger" jaguar really depends on the context (i.e.jaguar population).
It´s clear, that while lions and leopards don´t overlap in size, jaguars have a lot of size overlapping with pumas and leopards.
When talking about fights, it´s clear that one good bite to the right spot can end a fight quickly. And if it´s done so, that other one is totally surprised and talking about big male and small female, it´s not a miracle at all, that fight is finished even before it starts.
Leopard is able to fight quite fiercely and I don´t believe, that a prime leopard would be too easy opponent even to a somewhat bigger opponent. In that way this example of a very old and small female leopard against a prime (most probably male) big jaguar isn´t exactly something I would be calling a good example to use in fair comparison. There has been discussion about pumas and jaguars and their interactions and results indicate, that jaguars aren´t dominant species in all areas they overlap. It seems to be more or less mutual respect in many areas. And before someone puts photos of some dead pumas, in these areas mentioned jaguars and pumas are same sized.
I see it so, that of course size matters, but victories don´t come always easy. In some old video a leopard and a tiger fought quite fiercely and dispersed. If they would have fought to the bitter end, for sure tiger would have been pretty certain winner, but some nasty wounds to snout can make even a bigger cat to think something like "what the hell, not worth it this time".
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Balam - 10-13-2020
The two main populations of jaguars that overlap in size with leopards are the Central American and Caatinga, which on the great scheme of total jaguar population represent a small fraction of it. The idea that there is a major overlap between the two species is of course false. The major populations of jaguars live in grassland environmentals where they grow the biggest: Pantanal, Llanos, Chaco, Cerrado, etc. The Amazon houses the largest jaguar population and yet the average weight for Amazon jaguars far surpass the average weight for any leopard population, with maximum weights for individuals much higher as well.
In my initial post I clearly stated that a leopard is not going to give trouble to a *much larger jaguar*, because it isn't. There aren't any recorded instances of leopards genuinely fighting a larger opponent of similar proportions to a large jaguar in a prolonged fight and getting away with it (lionesses or tigresses). We all know that supposed case of the leopard and tigress dying in a fight was a hoax, while cases of tigresses killing male leopards are fairly easy to encounter. So my point stands.
@Shadow actually, from the research done by Onçafari in areas of the the Pantanal they have been able to register cases of jaguars going out of their way to predate on cougars. It's pretty clear that the areas in which there is a larger size difference among the two the cougar will be subordinated to its larger cousin. The case of the cougar dying in a fight with a jaguar with its skull broken actually comes from Belize, the same area where they are supposed to overlap in size, so that tells you everything you need to know about the power of jaguar lb for lb against a felid of similar proportions who is less robust.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Shadow - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 03:02 PM)Balam Wrote: The two main populations of jaguars that overlap in size with leopards are the Central American and Caatinga, which on the great scheme of total jaguar population represent a small fraction of it. The idea that there is a major overlap between the two species is of course false. The major populations of jaguars live in grassland environmentals where they grow the biggest: Pantanal, Llanos, Chaco, Cerrado, etc. The Amazon houses the largest jaguar population and yet the average weight for Amazon jaguars far surpass the average weight for any leopard population, with maximum weights for individuals much higher as well.
In my initial post I clearly stated that a leopard is not going to give trouble to a *much larger jaguar*, because it isn't. There aren't any recorded instances of leopards genuinely fighting a larger opponent of similar proportions to a large jaguar in a prolonged fight and getting away with it (lionesses or tigresses). We all know that supposed case of the leopard and tigress dying in a fight was a hoax, while cases of tigresses killing male leopards are fairly easy to encounter. So my point stands.
@Shadow actually, from the research done by Onçafari in areas of the the Pantanal they have been able to register cases of jaguars going out of their way to predate on cougars. It's pretty clear that the areas in which there is a larger size difference among the two the cougar will be subordinated to its larger cousin. The case of the cougar dying in a fight with a jaguar with its skull broken actually comes from Belize, the same area where they are supposed to overlap in size, so that tells you everything you need to know about the power of jaguar lb for lb against a felid of similar proportions who is less robust.
My main point is, that leopard is capable fighter and in my thoughts there is no doubt, that it can give trouble to any jaguar if it has a chance to notice incoming attack in time. It´s big enough to claw for instance snout of bigger cat causing pain and it´s not self-evident that a fight would end to death if it would happen somewhere else than in a zoo cage.
Lions kill a lot of leopards, but not every time and that video with a tiger show clearly too, that leopard can make a bigger cat to think twice. If bigger cat is really determined for some reason, then smaller is in big trouble. But it can be relatively painful price which has to be payed until smaller cat is done. Leopard isn´t the biggest cat, but it´s no joke to any attacker if first attack isn´t spot on right away. We see many half blind big cats in nature and leopard claws are big enough to puncture eye of any other animal if swipe hits right place.
Anyway this is once again one of those discussions with many opinions and quite little real information since pumas and jaguars in areas in which they overlap in size, most likely avoid fights than seek those.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Balam - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 06:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:(10-13-2020, 03:02 PM)Balam Wrote: The two main populations of jaguars that overlap in size with leopards are the Central American and Caatinga, which on the great scheme of total jaguar population represent a small fraction of it. The idea that there is a major overlap between the two species is of course false. The major populations of jaguars live in grassland environmentals where they grow the biggest: Pantanal, Llanos, Chaco, Cerrado, etc. The Amazon houses the largest jaguar population and yet the average weight for Amazon jaguars far surpass the average weight for any leopard population, with maximum weights for individuals much higher as well.
In my initial post I clearly stated that a leopard is not going to give trouble to a *much larger jaguar*, because it isn't. There aren't any recorded instances of leopards genuinely fighting a larger opponent of similar proportions to a large jaguar in a prolonged fight and getting away with it (lionesses or tigresses). We all know that supposed case of the leopard and tigress dying in a fight was a hoax, while cases of tigresses killing male leopards are fairly easy to encounter. So my point stands.
@Shadow actually, from the research done by Onçafari in areas of the the Pantanal they have been able to register cases of jaguars going out of their way to predate on cougars. It's pretty clear that the areas in which there is a larger size difference among the two the cougar will be subordinated to its larger cousin. The case of the cougar dying in a fight with a jaguar with its skull broken actually comes from Belize, the same area where they are supposed to overlap in size, so that tells you everything you need to know about the power of jaguar lb for lb against a felid of similar proportions who is less robust.
My main point is, that leopard is capable fighter and in my thoughts there is no doubt, that it can give trouble to any jaguar if it has a chance to notice incoming attack in time. It´s big enough to claw for instance snout of bigger cat causing pain and it´s not self-evident that a fight would end to death if it would happen somewhere else than in a zoo cage.
Lions kill a lot of leopards, but not every time and that video with a tiger show clearly too, that leopard can make a bigger cat to think twice. If bigger cat is really determined for some reason, then smaller is in big trouble. But it can be relatively painful price which has to be payed until smaller cat is done. Leopard isn´t the biggest cat, but it´s no joke to any attacker if first attack isn´t spot on right away. We see many half blind big cats in nature and leopard claws are big enough to puncture eye of any other animal if swipe hits right place.
Anyway this is once again one of those discussions with many opinions and quite little real information since pumas and jaguars in areas in which they overlap in size, most likely avoid fights than seek those.
And my previous post is clear that size differences matter. If we're talking of two animals of similar proportions in terms of weight then your point of the leopard being able to sustain a fight holds ground, but this isn't the case nor does it relate to my initial assertion of a much larger jaguar. Any felid can cause serious damage if they are able to get proper hold of a critical area of a larger opponent, but this isn't guaranteed. Out of the cases of tigresses killing leopards there has yet to be a serious instance of one being heavily wounded in the process, similarly we could say the same out of jaguar/cougar interactions.
Even within species, it is almost the norm that the animal that holds the advantage in terms of size or build build will end up victorious in a fight to death. The smaller opponent might be tenacious enough to lash out in desperation in an attempt to survive, but eventually it will succumb to the larger adversary. Any claims of the smaller one badly wounding the larger one are based purely on speculations.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Shadow - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 06:47 PM)Balam Wrote:(10-13-2020, 06:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:(10-13-2020, 03:02 PM)Balam Wrote: The two main populations of jaguars that overlap in size with leopards are the Central American and Caatinga, which on the great scheme of total jaguar population represent a small fraction of it. The idea that there is a major overlap between the two species is of course false. The major populations of jaguars live in grassland environmentals where they grow the biggest: Pantanal, Llanos, Chaco, Cerrado, etc. The Amazon houses the largest jaguar population and yet the average weight for Amazon jaguars far surpass the average weight for any leopard population, with maximum weights for individuals much higher as well.
In my initial post I clearly stated that a leopard is not going to give trouble to a *much larger jaguar*, because it isn't. There aren't any recorded instances of leopards genuinely fighting a larger opponent of similar proportions to a large jaguar in a prolonged fight and getting away with it (lionesses or tigresses). We all know that supposed case of the leopard and tigress dying in a fight was a hoax, while cases of tigresses killing male leopards are fairly easy to encounter. So my point stands.
@Shadow actually, from the research done by Onçafari in areas of the the Pantanal they have been able to register cases of jaguars going out of their way to predate on cougars. It's pretty clear that the areas in which there is a larger size difference among the two the cougar will be subordinated to its larger cousin. The case of the cougar dying in a fight with a jaguar with its skull broken actually comes from Belize, the same area where they are supposed to overlap in size, so that tells you everything you need to know about the power of jaguar lb for lb against a felid of similar proportions who is less robust.
My main point is, that leopard is capable fighter and in my thoughts there is no doubt, that it can give trouble to any jaguar if it has a chance to notice incoming attack in time. It´s big enough to claw for instance snout of bigger cat causing pain and it´s not self-evident that a fight would end to death if it would happen somewhere else than in a zoo cage.
Lions kill a lot of leopards, but not every time and that video with a tiger show clearly too, that leopard can make a bigger cat to think twice. If bigger cat is really determined for some reason, then smaller is in big trouble. But it can be relatively painful price which has to be payed until smaller cat is done. Leopard isn´t the biggest cat, but it´s no joke to any attacker if first attack isn´t spot on right away. We see many half blind big cats in nature and leopard claws are big enough to puncture eye of any other animal if swipe hits right place.
Anyway this is once again one of those discussions with many opinions and quite little real information since pumas and jaguars in areas in which they overlap in size, most likely avoid fights than seek those.
And my previous post is clear that size differences matter. If we're talking of two animals of similar proportions in terms of weight then your point of the leopard being able to sustain a fight holds ground, but this isn't the case nor does it relate to my initial assertion of a much larger jaguar. Any felid can cause serious damage if they are able to get proper hold of a critical area of a larger opponent, but this isn't guaranteed. Out of the cases of tigresses killing leopards there has yet to be a serious instance of one being heavily wounded in the process, similarly we could same the same out of jaguar/cougar interactions.
Even within species, it is almost the norm that the animal that holds the advantage in terms of size or build build will end up victorious in a fight to death. The smaller opponent might be tenacious enough to lash out in desperation in an attempt to survive, but eventually it will succumb to the larger adversary. Any claims of the smaller one badly sounding the larger one are based purely on speculations.
You are free to have your opinion, I have mine. Everyone has their own and this matter is what it is. I don´t have anything to add or change to my previous postings so how I see things can be seen from those.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - GuateGojira - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 12:35 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Mexican jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Mexican jaguars from Yucatán Peninsula:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Belizean jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Guatemalan jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Can you please share the sources of all this information? Specially the last two. I will like to use it in the new comparative images of the biggest and the smalles jaguar populations.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Luipaard - 10-13-2020
(10-13-2020, 07:50 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:(10-13-2020, 12:35 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Mexican jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Mexican jaguars from Yucatán Peninsula:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Belizean jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Guatemalan jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Can you please share the sources of all this information? Specially the last two. I will like to use it in the new comparative images of the biggest and the smalles jaguar populations.
Sorry, was a bit hasty.
First table of the Mexican jaguars: http://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2007-33642017000200117
Yucatán Peninsula's jaguar data is from the book 'Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula'
Guatemalan jaguars: http://glifos.senacyt.gob.gt/digital/fodecyt/fodecyt%202006.58.pdf
Belizean jaguars (extremely detailed one, even includes cougars): https://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0045191/00001
Quote:The case of the cougar dying in a fight with a jaguar with its skull broken actually comes from Belize, the same area where they are supposed to overlap in size, so that tells you everything you need to know about the power of jaguar lb for lb against a felid of similar proportions who is less robust.
Problem is that we don't know their sexes. Who knows if the cougar and jaguar were both males? What if the cougar was a female and the jaguar a large, territorial male? We can only speculate.
Quote:The two main populations of jaguars that overlap in size with leopards are the Central American and Caatinga, which on the great scheme of total jaguar population represent a small fraction of it. The idea that there is a major overlap between the two species is of course false.
I don't think those jaguars are a small fraction as Central American jaguars basically represent all the populations from (parts of) USA, Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Balam - 10-14-2020
@
By comparison in the Pantanal itself reports put the jaguar population as high as 13,000 and the Cerrado which is the largest grassland in the continent could hold an even larger population by virtue of its size.
Smaller jaguars can be found in certain poached areas of the Amazon, and still the data shows that in general the region is capable of producing large individuals, especially around Suriname and Guyana.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - GuateGojira - 10-14-2020
(10-13-2020, 11:40 PM)Luipaard Wrote: Sorry, was a bit hasty.
First table of the Mexican jaguars: http://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2007-33642017000200117
Yucatán Peninsula's jaguar data is from the book 'Biodiversity and Conservation of the Yucatán Peninsula'
Guatemalan jaguars: http://glifos.senacyt.gob.gt/digital/fodecyt/fodecyt%202006.58.pdf
Belizean jaguars (extremely detailed one, even includes cougars): https://ufdc.ufl.edu/UFE0045191/00001
Thank you for the information.
RE: Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences - Dark Jaguar - 10-14-2020
About the Puma and Jaguar in the same areas, sizes and interactions.
In Brazil the smallest difference in size for both species happens in Caatinga where jaguars are the smallest in size.
The Amazonic jaguars from Mamirauá reserve are small too but they're larger than the Caatinga jaguars.
There are a few infos of Jaguars and Pumas coexistence in the Jaguars of Brazil thread, in Atlantic Forest area of Iguaçú - South Brazil Pumas and Jaguars can be seen in the same territories but on different times of the day and night within that specific area.
IN THE BRAZILIAN ATLANTIC FOREST.
from the Bafo de Onça live.
Vânia from the Onças do Iguaçú project: ''both species use the same area but with Atlantic forest Jaguars and Ocelots being more nocturnal active cats in Iguaçú whereas Pumas are also nocturnal but they were active much more on daytime than jaguars so maybe the utilization of the area at different times help the existence of both species.''
IN PANTANAL.
In the Pantanal basin wise there's a post I dropped some months ago in the Jaguars of Brazil thread of Onçafari live ''Onçatalks''and according to their monitoring and to what Joares May said in Pantanal Pumas will also avoid direct encounters with jaguars and will seek smaller preys.
Joares May: ''The Onçafari team are on the field monitoring the area to figure out the places where it spots more Pumas and the ones that spots more jaguars, and from what we've seen in the areas where jaguars are seen the most the Pumas will either not show up around there or they will show up there only every once in a while during the day so both species are in the same region but in different times and its very clear in those places where in the range area of the jaguar you won't see Pumas around because the Puma won't be able to compete with this big predator.''
''So the jaguar ends up dominating this area and we almost don't see an overlap but we already saw an area where a Jaguar was feeding on a kill and next to it there was a Puma preying on another animal.''
In the same onçafari live they were asked about jaguar predation on pumas and Joares May who travelled all over Brazil and the world he captured jaguars, maned wolves, pumas... he mentioned about a Puma carcass in Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas ( Cerrado ) that was found and supposedly killed by a jaguar they checked the fighting place and the carcass had bite marks on the shoulders and paws so he imagined the Puma carcass was killed by jaguar, he also mentions he saw the result of a Puma and Jaguar fight and he says the result was Ugly.
also Pumas won't be seen very often in neither Porto Jofre (North section of Pantanal) nor in Mamirauá reserve (Central Amazon) because these two regions got high densities of jaguars with very high intraspecific competitions amongst jags. But just like in Iguaçú Pumas may very well ''show up'' during the times of the day/night when jaguars are less active in one specific place of those areas.
The area where wild Pumas and Jaguars are most equally sized is in Caatinga where both cats are found in serious critical endangered situations and where some Pumas could be the same size as jaguars or even slightly larger as Ronaldo Morato have stated in the live. In Caatinga is where you'll see the smallest wild jaguars than in any other biome but despite their small size they're yet proportionately very stocky cats which is expected from the most robust cat pound for pound.
credits: IOP and Bichos dos Pireneus
TOP: Cerrado male Puma ( from PNE )
BOTTOM: Cerrado male Jaguar ( from Serra dos Pireneus )
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author