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+----- Thread: Lion Directory (/topic-lion-directory)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
Ok, let's do this.
Summary of lion population of Sabi Sands - March 2021
(this might not be 100% complete and correct - - feel free to correct mistakes and add missing info; parents in brackets are either certain or there is consensus on them being prime suspects )
Othawa Pride (ruled by Tumbela coalition of 3) expanded info
Adults 3,3
Sub-adults 3,1 currently somewhat nomadic
Cubs 0,0
Males Coalition thread on WildFact
Tumbela Male 1 "Skorro Jr" *2015 in Nharu sired by Thanda Impis
Tumbela Male 2 "Scar" *2015 in Nharu sired by Thanda Impis
Tumbela Male 3 "Limper" *2015 in Nharu sired by Thanda Impis
Females
Othawa "Auntie" 1 *2008 in Othawa sired by Mapogos
Othawa "Auntie" 2 *2008 in Othawa sired by Mapogos
Othawa "Sassy" *2015 in Othawa (mother deceased) sired by Majingilanes
(littermate of Othawa Male "Nguvu")
Sub-adults
sub-adult Male 1 Othawa "Junior" *Mar 2018 in Othawa sired by Majingilanes (Dark Mane)
sub-adut Male 2 *Oct 2018 in Othawa (Sassy) sired by Matimbas (Ginger)
sub-adult Male 3 *Oct 2018 in Othawa (Sassy) sired by Matimbas (Ginger)
sub-adult Female *Oct 2018 in Othawa (Sassy) sired by Matimbas (Ginger)
Mhangeni Pride (ruled by Othawa Male "Nguvu") Expanded Info
also known as Tsalala Breakaway
Adults 1,5
Sub-adults 0,1
Cubs 0,0,1
Males
Othawa Male "Nguvu" *2015 in Othawa sired by Majingilane (Scar Nose/Hip Scar)
Females
Mhangeni female 1 *2009 in Tsalala sired by Mapogos
Mhangeni female 2 *2009 in Tsalala sired by Mapogos
Mhangeni female 3 *2009 in Tsalala sired by Mapogos
Mhangeni female 4 *2016 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Mhangeni female 5 *2016 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
(4 and 5 were part of the Mhangeni 12, only two that survived)
sub-adult female "Tinya" *2018 in Mhangeni sired by Birminghams
Cubs
1 cub *in Mhangeni sired by Othawa Male
Kambula Pride (ruled by Birmingham coalition of 2)Expanded Info
also known as Ntsevu Pride
Adults 2,6
Sub-adults 5,6
Males
Birmingham Coalition (also knows as Gowrie Males)
Nhenha *2010/2011 in Birmingham by Old Birmingham Males
Tinyo *2010/2011 in Birmingham by Old Birmingham Males
Females
Kambula Female 1 *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Kambula Female 2 *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Kambula Female 3 *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Kambula Female 4 *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Kambula Female 5 *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Kambula Infertile Female *2013 in Mhangeni sired by Majingilanes
Sub-adults
5 Sub-adult males *2018/2019 in Kambula sired by Birminghams
6 Sub-adult females *2018/2019 in Kambula sired by Birminghams
Tsalala Pride (on their own)
also known as Marthly pride
Adults 0,1
Sub-adults 0,1
Females
Tsalala "Pretty Girl" *Jul 2013 in Tsalala sired by Majingilanes
Sub-Adults
Tsalala sub-adult female *Apr 2019 in Tsalala sired by Birminghams (Nhenha)
Ximhungwe Pride (on their own)
Adults 0,1
Sub-adults 0,1
Females
Ximhungwe * born in Ximhungwe by Selatis
Cubs
Ximhungwe * born in Ximhungwe by Northern Avocas
Nkuhuma Pride (ruled by Northen Avocas of 2+1)Expanded Info
Adults 2,8?
Sub-adults 5,3
Cubs ?
Males
Mohawk Avoca *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males (Old Avoca Males)
Blondie Avoca *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males (Old Avoca Males)
+ sometimes
Dark Mane Avoca *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males (Old Avoca Males)
Females
Purple Eye
Amber Eyes
Ridge Nose
Hairy Chin "Zodwa"
...
Sub-adults
Sub-adult male *May 2019 in Nkuhuma (Ridge Nose) sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male *May 2019 in Nkuhuma (Ridge Nose) sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male *Aug 2019 in Nkuhuma (Purple Eye) sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male *Aug 2019 in Nkuhuma (Purple Eye) sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male *Aug 2019 in Nkuhuma (Purple Eye) sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female *Jul 2019 in Nkuhuma (Amber Eyes) sired by Northen Avocas
Sub-adult female *Jul 2019 in Nkuhuma (Amber Eyes) sired by Northen Avocas
Sub-adult female *Jul 2019 in Nkuhuma (Amber Eyes) sired by Northen Avocas
Cubs
Cub(s?)/sub-adult *Dec 2019 in Nkuhuma (Hairy Chin) sired by Northen Avocas
Talamati Pride (ruled by Dark Mane of Northern Avocas) Expanded Info
Adults 1,5
Sub-Adults 3,6
Cubs 0,0
Males
Dark Mane Avoca *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males (Old Avoca Males)
Females
Silver Eye *2007 in Nkuhuma sired by Blondie and Dozie
Talamati female 2 *2007 in Nkuhuma sired by Blondie and Dozie
Talamati female 3 *2007 in Nkuhuma sired by Blondie and Dozie
Talamati female 4
Talamati female 5
Sub-adults
Sub-adult male 1 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male 2 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult male 3 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 1 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 2 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 3 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 4 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 5 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Sub-adult female 6 *Dec2018-Apr2019 in Talamati sired by Northern Avocas
Southern Pride (ruled by N'W coalition of 4)
also known as Selati Pride
Adults 4,1
Sub-Adults 0,0
Cubs 0,2
Males
N'waswitshaka coalition of 4 (also known as Ndzhenga coalition)
Dominant N'waswitshaka Male "Amahle" *2015 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Wide Nose "Uboso" *2015 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Orange Eyes "Eorenji" *2016 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Gore *2016 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Females
Last Southern female *in Southern sired by Fourways
Cubs
Southern female cub 1 *Jul 2020 in Southern (Last Southern female) sired by N'Ws
Southern female cub 2 *Jul 2020 in Southern (Last Southern female) sired by N'Ws
Styx Pride (ruled by N'W coalition of 4)
Adults 4,3
Sub-Adults 0,0
Cubs 0,0
Males
N'waswitshaka coalition of 4 (also known as Ndzhenga coalition)
Dominant N'waswitshaka Male "Amahle" *2015 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Wide Nose "Uboso" *2015 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Orange Eyes "Eorenji" *2016 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Gore *2016 in N'waswitshaka Pride sired by N'waswitshaka Old Males
Females
Styx Female *Jan 2008 in Styx sired by Rollercoaster Male (the last one)
Styx Female *Jan 2011 in Styx sired by Majingilanes
Styx Female *Dec 2016 in Styx sired by Birminghams
Sand River Pride (ruled by Southern Avocas coalition of 2)
Adults 2,4
Cubs 1,0,5
Males
Southern Avoca with larger mane *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males
Southern Avoca with eye scar *2013 in Avoca sired by Avoca/Giraffe Males
Females
Sand River Female 1 *2012 in Sand River sired by Toulons
Sand River Female 2 *2012 in Sand River sired by Toulons
Sand River Female 3 *2017 in Sand River sired by Mantimahles
Sand River Female 4 *2017 in Sand River sired by Mantimahles
Cubs
6 cubs *2020 in Sand River sired by Southern Avocas
Torchwood Pride - as a whole (ruled by Kruger Males coalition of 2)
(fragemented into smaller groups and in and out of Kruger, more info needed)
Nomadic Males and prideles individuals
Hairy Belly Matimba *2006 in Birmingham by Old Skybed Males
Nkuhuma Male *2016 in Nkuhuma (Nana) sired by Birminghams More info and ID (thread)
Styx Male *2016 in Styx sired by Birminghams More info and ID (thread)
(these two are together)
Torchwood Young Male *2016 in Torchwood sired by Birminghams (Nhenha) More info and ID (thread)
Plains Camp Young Male 1 *2017? in Plains Camp by Mantimahles
Plains Camp Young Male 2 *2017? in Plains Camp by Mantimahles
(these two are together, often in Kruger rather than Sabi Sands, but spotted on Sabi Sabi recently)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(reserved for Othawa pride detailed info)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(reserved for Mhangeni pride detailed info)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(reserved for Kambula pride detailed info)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(reserved for Nkuhuma pride detailed info)
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(reserved for Talamati pride detailed info)
RE: Lion Directory - Tr1x24 - 03-03-2021
@RookiePundit Idk from where people are getting that Silver Eyes and Talamati females are sired by Mapogos, theres 0 evidence for that..
Talamatis occured as few Nkuhuma lionesses with remaining Nkuhuma male Dozie, run away from Mapogos and moved north into Manyeleti..
Even if some Mapogos mated with Nkuhumas, they for sure didn't mate with Nkuhuma gruop who become Talamatis as they where far away north..
RE: Lion Directory - Potato - 03-03-2021
1. Othawa females are born in 2008
2. Nhenha could be father of sub adult Tsalala, but it is save to say that other Birminghams could be as well.
3. Old talamati females are sired by Nkuchuma males in 2007
4. Avoca males are sired by 2 Old Avoca males. Old Avocas were part of Avoca/Giraffe coalition of course, I am just pointing out that younger Giraffe males are for sure not the fathers of Avocas.
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 03:34 AM)Potato Wrote:(03-03-2021, 02:32 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: @RookiePundit Idk from where people are getting that Silver Eyes and Talamati females are sired by Mapogos, theres 0 evidence for that..
Talamatis occured as few Nkuhuma lionesses with remaining Nkuhuma male Dozie, run away from Mapogos and moved north into Manyeleti..
Even if some Mapogos mated with Nkuhumas, they for sure didn't mate with Nkuhuma gruop who become Talamatis as they where far away north..
1. Othawa females are born in 2008
2. Nhenha could be father of sub adult Tsalala, but it is save to say that other Birminghams could be as well.
3. Old talamati females are sired by Nkuchuma males in 2007
4. Avoca males are sired by 2 Old Avoca males. Old Avocas were part of Avoca/Giraffe coalition of course, I am just pointing out that younger Giraffe males are for sure not the fathers of Avocas.
Thanks.
1. Edited
2. Noted. Where there is a consensus about probable parent within coalition/pride and is generally believed certain individual is a probable parent, I add that. Since we will never know for sure, it seems better to add well supported theories. I even included speculation based on looks in case of Othawa male and wrote down both Scar Nose and Hip Scar. As long as it is within the same coalition I see little harm in that.
3. below
4. Added. Timbavati beyond Ngala is Hic sunt leones territory for me.
I have trouble founding useable info about Nkuhuma-Talamati split. The Mapogo attack came allegedly in December 2007 and cubs were kill in following months as well. I even found a claim no 2007 born cub survived, which is odd as Sizanani is supposed to be born that year and he and his later lame brother surely survived (were thy only ones). Did the split happen right there os Talamatis were regular breakway later - as it seems the Nkuhumas with Dozie in Manyeleti are still called Nkuhumas and both prides used to be more to the north than today in recent years. The next takeover should be Matimbas in 2010, right?
RE: Lion Directory - Potato - 03-03-2021
(03-03-2021, 04:46 AM)RookiePundit Wrote: The Mapogo attack came allegedly in December 2007 and cubs were kill in following months as well. I even found a claim no 2007 born cub survived, which is odd as Sizanani is supposed to be born that year and he and his later lame brother surely survived (were thy only ones). Did the split happen right there os Talamatis were regular breakway later - as it seems the Nkuhumas with Dozie in Manyeleti are still called Nkuhumas and both prides used to be more to the north than today in recent years.The part of Nkuchuma pride which ran off from Mapogos to Manyeleti is nowdays Talamati pride.
(03-03-2021, 04:46 AM)RookiePundit Wrote: The next takeover should be Matimbas in 2010, right?
Yeah, matimbas tookover Talamati pride in 2010. Core Nkuchuma pride was takenover in 2009 by Gijima males and then in 2010/2011 by Matimbas.
RE: Lion Directory - Psyckoo - 03-06-2021
The southern lioness was sired by Fourways males, and for Styx one was sired by Rolleascaster, one by Majingilane and the last one by Birmingham males.
Did we have more infos about Sand river pride or not ?
RE: Lion Directory - Tr1x24 - 03-06-2021
(03-06-2021, 06:35 PM)Psyckoo Wrote: The southern lioness was sired by Fourways males, and for Styx one was sired by Rolleascaster, one by Majingilane and the last one by Birmingham males.
Did we have more infos about Sand river pride or not ?
2 older Sand River females are sired by Toulon males, prob around 2012, 2 younger ones by Mantimahles in 2017.
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-07-2021
(03-06-2021, 06:35 PM)Psyckoo Wrote: The southern lioness was sired by Fourways males, and for Styx one was sired by Rolleascaster, one by Majingilane and the last one by Birmingham males.
Did we have more infos about Sand river pride or not ?
Thanks, edited accrodingly, fits what I gathered. Only - are we sure the southern lioness was sired by Fourways. They controlled the pride barely half a year and the cub would then have to survive Charleston Males taking over and siring many cubs on their own. Isn't she rather a Charleston Males' offspring ?
RE: Lion Directory - RookiePundit - 03-07-2021
(03-06-2021, 08:39 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(03-06-2021, 06:35 PM)Psyckoo Wrote: The southern lioness was sired by Fourways males, and for Styx one was sired by Rolleascaster, one by Majingilane and the last one by Birmingham males.
Did we have more infos about Sand river pride or not ?
2 older Sand River females are sired by Toulon males, prob around 2012, 2 younger ones by Mantimahles in 2017.
Thank you, edited. Checking your last map from the map thread there you have 3 females with Southern Avocas, I assume the 4th one was with the young males and came back perhaps? Btw, should we count the young southern males for lion of Sabi Sands or are they gone in Kruger (and if the former, what is their pedigree)? I assume 6 cubs of the pride still stands, no losses so far.
RE: Lion Directory - Tr1x24 - 03-07-2021
(03-07-2021, 04:28 AM)RookiePundit Wrote: Thanks, edited accrodingly, fits what I gathered. Only - are we sure the southern lioness was sired by Fourways. They controlled the pride barely half a year and the cub would then have to survive Charleston Males taking over and siring many cubs on their own. Isn't she rather a Charleston Males' offspring ?
She is Fourways, Charleston males didn't kill any cubs sired by Fourways males..