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+----- Thread: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India (/topic-b2-and-other-great-tiger-pics-from-india)
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RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pantherinae - 12-27-2019
(12-27-2019, 04:19 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: honestly i don’t know about that, present day Umarpani and Wagdoh. It’s definitely Umarpani since he’s a lot younger. Prime Wagdoh vs Prime Umarpani is very close. if i had to pick, i’d say Waghdoh male. I can also agree that in general Kanha males on average are bigger than Tadoba males. however, the general rule doesn’t apply to every tiger and Waghdoh was by far the biggest tiger to come out of Tadoba.
I had this argument with the Kanha side a couple years ago, they said Umarpani and i had the same argument with Tadoba side. they said Waghdoh. at the end of the day, both are huge. probably amongst the top 10 biggest males to come out of Central India in the past decade. no doubt about it.
Umarpani
Waghdoh
I would bet my life on Umarpani being bigger.
Wagdoh is not that big imo. I have heard people say he was huge and people say he’s about the size of Matkasur. He’s more fat than anything else. Here he’s skinny and I’m not very impressed tbh not very muscular and with a rather small head compared to Kanha males. I think when he’s fat he tricks your view.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - GreenForest - 12-28-2019
Wagdoh seems to be longer and taller than umarpani. Longer, taller male would normally weigh more. Wagdoh should have considerably larger chest girth as well, that would push his weight even further. No comparison there.
Check out this link. Sample of indian tigers in all regions.
https://projecttiger.nic.in/WriteReadData/PublicationFile/ALL%20INDIA%20TIGER%20ESTIMATION%202014-compressed%20(1)-min.pdf
Terai tigers look much larger. Tadoba, Pench tigers comes second in my opinion.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pckts - 12-28-2019
Tadoba and pench Tigers are definitely not larger than Kanha Tigers in general.
None that I saw from either reserve could rival the Kanha Tigers I saw.
Wagdoh isn't tall in the shoulder either but he is long, he's about the same shoulder height as Munna or Matkasur but he is said to be longer than either.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Rage2277 - 12-28-2019
idk..i feel like the pench tigers are up there with kanha tigers easy
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pckts - 12-28-2019
(12-28-2019, 01:34 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: idk..i feel like the pench tigers are up there with kanha tigers easy
Just to give you an idea, both BMW and Rayakassa were seen by the same group in Pench then when we went to Kanha they saw the Sangam male *we thought it was the Rhonda male at the time* and they said the Sangam male absolutely dwarfed both of them and Sangam is still smaller than CM and Umarpani.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - GreenForest - 12-28-2019
CM is probably a below 200kg tiger same like his father. He looks large only if he is fully gorged. Uma is definitely larger probably around 225kg. Kingfisher is probably the genuine 250+kg tiger in Kanha. The standout features of genuine big tigers are body length and chest girth. Lot of tadoba tigers have that, hard to see that features in Kanha tigers. Camera trap pictures of Kanha tigers are not that impressive either. Kanha tigers may seem to have larger head, but that's hardly indication of heavier weight. Tadoba tigers have length, chest, robust head. They have all. In my opinion, They are Central India's kaziranga only pench tigers can come closer.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pckts - 12-28-2019
Neither CM nor Munna were below 200kg Tigers and Uma dwarfed M2 who was 193kg sub adult, he easily looked to 50kg-80kg larger, no problem.
I'm not sure where you're getting that Tadoba Tigers are larger but they aren't, you can ask anyone who've seen both and they'll say Kanha Tigers are larger, my self included.
There is nothing about Tadoba that leads to a larger Tiger than Kanha.
Kanha is the way larger park, more elevation, far more large prey, cooler year round and more green.
Kanha Tigers are much more robust, larger skulls and taller at the shoulder, probably longer as well but that's hard to tell with the naked eye.
Put it this way, I saw 2 females in Tadoba and they weren't even 2/3 the size of the Link 8 female in Kanha and no male from either Pench or Tadoba that I saw were even in the same category as the Sangam male.
The only male that could be is the Tarzan male but Handsome, BMW and Rayakassi would be small males in Kanha, this is confirmed by people who literally saw them back to back on the same trip.
Same with CM being larger than both Matkasur by quite a bit and Mr. X from Bandhavgarh, Mr. X is a bit larger than Markasur as well. That's also from someone who saw them back to back and has seen more Tigers than most in their life.
I know people have their preferences but Kanha is by far more suitable for large cats.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Rage2277 - 12-28-2019
that bahgoda male from pench is pretty big too mukhtar aswell @Pckts
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Roflcopters - 12-28-2019
Quote:I would bet my life on Umarpani being bigger.
Wagdoh is not that big imo. I have heard people say he was huge and people say he’s about the size of Matkasur. He’s more fat than anything else. Here he’s skinny and I’m not very impressed tbh not very muscular and with a rather small head compared to Kanha males. I think when he’s fat he tricks your view.
@Pantherinae
It’s been a while, good to see you’re still around. I would also have to disagree with you on that. Matkasur is my favorite tiger from Tadoba and it’s safe to say, he is probably one of the smallest male from Tadoba. Waghdoh was in a league of his own, the two never really compared.
Waghdoh was a very long tiger, he was tall and massive to the core. a well known gaur specialist, he was quite honestly the Ronnie Coleman of Central India, no other tigers even from MP side compared during his Prime. Bamera from MP was also around the same time and when people saw both, Waghdoh was easily their first pick without much room for debate.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sudhir Shivaram has seen more than a dozen tigers in his life time, he saw Bamera and Waghdoh in their prime.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Farooque Khan has also seen his fair share of tigers, when he saw Waghdoh. He was amazed.
this is just me cherry picking but there is a reason why Waghdoh was considered one of the biggest tiger of all time, mainly in Central India.
*This image is copyright of its original author
not many tigers can compete with this level of massiveness, even in the present days.
here is the old man now a days
even for a tiger who’s 16/17 now, he’s still a beast.
Also the argument that Kanha tigers are the biggest in Central India is far from the truth, the prey options are mainly the same. just higher in some areas and mild in others. on that note, the biggest males from Pench, Kanha, Bandhavgarh, Tadoba, Panna, Melghat and Satpura are all comparable. the general rule is that tigers that often hunt larger prey tend to be the biggest. for example, i’m willing to bet Dadyal, Shiva and Bajrang of Tadoba are all bigger than Dhamangaon, Bajrang of Kanha and CM of Kanha.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pckts - 12-28-2019
(12-28-2019, 07:19 AM)Rage2277 Wrote: that bahgoda male from pench is pretty big too mukhtar aswell @Pckts
Forgot about Mukhtar, hes a bulky boy too.
@Roflcopters
The prey in Kanha is far more abundant, Gaur graze in huge numbers in Kanha, they are also larger there compared to Tadoba, same with the Sambar as well as having Barasingha in Kanha too.
I'd have to disagree that any of the Tigers you named are larger than the Kanha Tigers. Tigers like Bheema, Kingfisher, CM, Umarpani, Bajrang, KG, T46 and T50 *new males in mukki* are all larger than any Tadoba Tiger imo.
Gabbar for instance was a 185kg Tiger, he was close in size to Saturn and another male, all dominate in Tadoba, compared to M2 who was 10kg heavier than Gabbar as a sub adult and was dwarfed by Umarpani, I'd say that's fairly evident that males those size would be ran out of Kanha fairly fast.
Now you have Matkasur who's for sure smaller than Mr. X and CM yet hes been dominate for some time in tadoba, usually dominance is directly correlated with size, maybe not every case but most of the time and with that being the case, Tadoba shouldn't have smaller males be dominate so often but that's the case, as with Gabbar, Saturn, Matkasur, etc.
Even more telling are the females, you have small male genes floating around and even smaller female genes with Choti Tara and Maya who are both dwarfed by Kanha Females.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - johnny rex - 12-28-2019
(12-27-2019, 09:34 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:(12-27-2019, 04:19 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: honestly i don’t know about that, present day Umarpani and Wagdoh. It’s definitely Umarpani since he’s a lot younger. Prime Wagdoh vs Prime Umarpani is very close. if i had to pick, i’d say Waghdoh male. I can also agree that in general Kanha males on average are bigger than Tadoba males. however, the general rule doesn’t apply to every tiger and Waghdoh was by far the biggest tiger to come out of Tadoba.
I had this argument with the Kanha side a couple years ago, they said Umarpani and i had the same argument with Tadoba side. they said Waghdoh. at the end of the day, both are huge. probably amongst the top 10 biggest males to come out of Central India in the past decade. no doubt about it.
Umarpani
Waghdoh
I would bet my life on Umarpani being bigger.
Wagdoh is not that big imo. I have heard people say he was huge and people say he’s about the size of Matkasur. He’s more fat than anything else. Here he’s skinny and I’m not very impressed tbh not very muscular and with a rather small head compared to Kanha males. I think when he’s fat he tricks your view.
That's what I think of Waghdoh and most Central Indian male tigers (not including Umarpani that looks like he got a good sized skull in relation to his body), most of them have smaller skull with respect to their body although their body can be massive and long. Not sure about their shoulder height. In my opinion, male tigers from every part of India except the Northern part have much smaller frame compared to the North Indian tigers. Have you seen Han and Ali, the lions from BJWT? At some point, Han is a little bit heavier than Ali but Ali have a bigger frame compared to Han. Ali have a bigger skull, taller at the shoulder and bigger overall skeletal frame compared to Han. Later, Ali would became the heaviest (thus the biggest) lion among the Big Pride which consisted of Han, Luke, Illanga and Ali himself.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - johnny rex - 12-28-2019
(12-28-2019, 07:23 AM)Roflcopters Wrote:Quote:I would bet my life on Umarpani being bigger.
Wagdoh is not that big imo. I have heard people say he was huge and people say he’s about the size of Matkasur. He’s more fat than anything else. Here he’s skinny and I’m not very impressed tbh not very muscular and with a rather small head compared to Kanha males. I think when he’s fat he tricks your view.
@Pantherinae
It’s been a while, good to see you’re still around. I would also have to disagree with you on that. Matkasur is my favorite tiger from Tadoba and it’s safe to say, he is probably one of the smallest male from Tadoba. Waghdoh was in a league of his own, the two never really compared.
Waghdoh was a very long tiger, he was tall and massive to the core. a well known gaur specialist, he was quite honestly the Ronnie Coleman of Central India, no other tigers even from MP side compared during his Prime. Bamera from MP was also around the same time and when people saw both, Waghdoh was easily their first pick without much room for debate.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sudhir Shivaram has seen more than a dozen tigers in his life time, he saw Bamera and Waghdoh in their prime.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Farooque Khan has also seen his fair share of tigers, when he saw Waghdoh. He was amazed.
this is just me cherry picking but there is a reason why Waghdoh was considered one of the biggest tiger of all time, mainly in Central India.
*This image is copyright of its original author
not many tigers can compete with this level of massiveness, even in the present days.
here is the old man now a days
even for a tiger who’s 16/17 now, he’s still a beast.
Also the argument that Kanha tigers are the biggest in Central India is far from the truth, the prey options are mainly the same. just higher in some areas and mild in others. on that note, the biggest males from Pench, Kanha, Bandhavgarh, Tadoba, Panna, Melghat and Satpura are all comparable. the general rule is that tigers that often hunt larger prey tend to be the biggest. for example, i’m willing to bet Dadyal, Shiva and Bajrang of Tadoba are all bigger than Dhamangaon, Bajrang of Kanha and CM of Kanha.
Maybe Waghdoh is just massive because of his large and long body, perhaps not because of his frame. I think his skull and his overall frame is smaller than the Northern giants despite maybe close in weight. If you know Enzo the white tiger from BJWT, he looks like a tank and he looks massive but when you see the size comparison between him and his owner Eddie it looks like Enzo is just a normal male tiger with a normal sized frame.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pantherinae - 12-28-2019
(12-28-2019, 07:23 AM)Roflcopters Wrote:Quote:I would bet my life on Umarpani being bigger.
Wagdoh is not that big imo. I have heard people say he was huge and people say he’s about the size of Matkasur. He’s more fat than anything else. Here he’s skinny and I’m not very impressed tbh not very muscular and with a rather small head compared to Kanha males. I think when he’s fat he tricks your view.
@Pantherinae
It’s been a while, good to see you’re still around. I would also have to disagree with you on that. Matkasur is my favorite tiger from Tadoba and it’s safe to say, he is probably one of the smallest male from Tadoba. Waghdoh was in a league of his own, the two never really compared.
Waghdoh was a very long tiger, he was tall and massive to the core. a well known gaur specialist, he was quite honestly the Ronnie Coleman of Central India, no other tigers even from MP side compared during his Prime. Bamera from MP was also around the same time and when people saw both, Waghdoh was easily their first pick without much room for debate.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Sudhir Shivaram has seen more than a dozen tigers in his life time, he saw Bamera and Waghdoh in their prime.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Farooque Khan has also seen his fair share of tigers, when he saw Waghdoh. He was amazed.
this is just me cherry picking but there is a reason why Waghdoh was considered one of the biggest tiger of all time, mainly in Central India.
*This image is copyright of its original author
not many tigers can compete with this level of massiveness, even in the present days.
here is the old man now a days
even for a tiger who’s 16/17 now, he’s still a beast.
Also the argument that Kanha tigers are the biggest in Central India is far from the truth, the prey options are mainly the same. just higher in some areas and mild in others. on that note, the biggest males from Pench, Kanha, Bandhavgarh, Tadoba, Panna, Melghat and Satpura are all comparable. the general rule is that tigers that often hunt larger prey tend to be the biggest. for example, i’m willing to bet Dadyal, Shiva and Bajrang of Tadoba are all bigger than Dhamangaon, Bajrang of Kanha and CM of Kanha.
Yes I’m still arround, but I would like to be more active. Just so much to do at work at the moment.
Wagdoh looks big when full, but when he’s skinny I don’t see a very impressive tiger. And I also have talked with people that says he’s massive and I have seen people say he’s not very big and arround the size of Matkasur.
Umarpani is so solid looks longer more muscular and has a much bigger head.
He just looks more impressive as Kanha tigers do imo.
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Pantherinae - 12-28-2019
(12-28-2019, 05:37 AM)GreenForest Wrote: CM is probably a below 200kg tiger same like his father. He looks large only if he is fully gorged. Uma is definitely larger probably around 225kg. Kingfisher is probably the genuine 250+kg tiger in Kanha. The standout features of genuine big tigers are body length and chest girth. Lot of tadoba tigers have that, hard to see that features in Kanha tigers. Camera trap pictures of Kanha tigers are not that impressive either. Kanha tigers may seem to have larger head, but that's hardly indication of heavier weight. Tadoba tigers have length, chest, robust head. They have all. In my opinion, They are Central India's kaziranga only pench tigers can come closer.
CM is well above 200 kg. He’s not that big, but he’s still very impressive and not by any means a small tiger. They are solid and round bodied and does also probably weigh more than they look like. I talked with a guy called Minh Ha I don’t know how reliable he is and he is a Kanha fanatic, but he said CM had been weighed at arround 220 kg when he was quite young.(I do not have his excat quote right now)
Here is Maya from Tadoba and the Link 8 female from Kanha. There is really no comparison and looks like two different sub species.
Link 8
RE: B2 and Other Great Tiger Pics from India - Lycaon - 12-28-2019
Sagar Paranjape
Baras at sunset.
Khursapar , Pench NP.
May '19.
*This image is copyright of its original author