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RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 09-26-2024
@peter
In my next post on tiger predation on bears, I will post the entire list of adult male brown bears hunted, killed and eaten by tigers. So people can see there's a bunch of authentic cases of adult male, mostly large males, brown bears falling prey to tigers. All accounts were reported by either biologists, rangers or seasoned hunters.
Mikhail Krechmar's Opinion
To put it bluntly, Krechmar, in my opinion, is a joke! And in his book "Shaggy God" he made an outright stupid, false and laughable statement about tigers and brown bears. Which very clearly showed his extreme bias and preference for bears, to the point, where he wrote blatant misinformation about tiger-brown bear clashes. Such a ridiculous statement, that no other wildlife expert, biologist, zoologist, ranger, naturalist, hunter, etc, in all of history, has ever wrote.
Krechmar claims that there's "much more" cases of brown bears killing tigers than vice versa! An absolute nonsensical statement and lie!
Here's Krechmar's laughable statement from his book "Shaggy God" (page 2):
"The famous naturalist and researcher of Primorye, L. Kaplanov, mentions cases of a successful tiger attack on a brown bear. The Amur tiger is the bear's only real rival in strength and agility. However, reading the literature more carefully, you gradually come to the conclusion that the opposite happens much more often."...
What??!! Now, which imaginary or fantasy literature did Krechmar allegedly "read" which showed this?? In which fantasy world? Was he hallucinating while he wrote that nonsense?
There's not a single reliable case, in the last 35 years of scientific field research, of a brown bear killing even a little tiger cub. Nor have any rangers or hunters found any cases of brown bears killing any tigers during this time period. Whereas, there are NUMEROUS modern day accounts (1992 - 2024) of tigers attacking, killing and eating brown bears, mostly adult bears. So what the hell is Krechmar saying?
Funny how Krechmar ignored all the TONS of cases of tigers killing and eating brown bears from numerous other biologists, zoologists, researchers, and in scientific studies. And also ignored the fact that the Amur tiger purposefully hunts the brown bear to eat as a food source. Why doesn't Krechmar acknowledge all these well established scientific facts?
Even the most hardcore bear fanatics out there, acknowledge the fact that there are far more cases of tigers killing brown bears, the opposite is extremely rare. This is simple common knowledge that is well known among ALL Russian experts, biologists, scientists, rangers, hunters, locals, and the lay person. And yet, Krechmar states that the "literature" shows that there are "much more" cases of brown bears killing tigers (which history, evidence & field research shows its extremely rare) than the other way around. Is this a joke?? How can a biologist write that with a straight face and not laugh?
Not only that, Krechmar has blatantly contradicted himself before. Some years ago, he said adult male tigers and adult male brown bears are both "equal" and neither dominates the other in a fight, then in 2021, he states: "I will also extend the speculative line and say that a large tiger has little chance against a large bear". So which one is it? He also said his opinion is 'speculative'. Which says it all.
Like Sysoev, Krechmar has never found any shred of evidence, or reported a single case of even the largest male brown bears fighting, contesting, or defeating an adult male tiger. Nothing. Just like Sysoev, his opinion is isolated and baseless and goes against the general consensus of Russian experts who live and work in the Primorye and Khabarovsk regions.
It is a fact, that most old and modern day Russian experts favor the tiger. John Vaillant's statements and take on Amur tigers vs Brown bears on video and in his book, also confirms this. So should we reject what Vaillant and majority of Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, and hunters said, and accept the baseless, isolated and speculative opinions of Sysoev and Krechmar?
Yes, Krechmar talks with hunters, but so do ALL biologists and rangers. Even most Russian hunters favor the tiger. Biologist Rukovsky interviewed 42 local, experienced hunters of the Primorsky Krai, about fights between tigers and brown bears, and in the reported statistics, the tiger dominated the brown bear in fights (winning 11-2). Krechmar or Sysoev have never reported such statistics or evidence that supports their opinions. It's all speculations and guesswork.
American naturalist, Joseph Kullman also talked with hunters of the Primorsky Krai, and even in his experience, the hunters testified that the tiger is more often the winner, and also hunts the brown bear. We see a consistent pattern, and consistency is key. Vast majority of experienced authorities debunk and refute Sysoev and Krechmar's opinions and false assumptions.
Then, again, we have the recent statement of Olga Krasnykh, who lives and works in the Primorye region, and works and talks with various Russian scientists, biologists and rangers. She also stated that based on the battle signs in the snow, examined by scientists, the tiger is the dominant animal and also reduces the brown bear populations in that region. Just like Vaillant's view, and most Russian experts views and testimonies, Krasnykh's statement just further asserts and confirms the Amur tigers superiority and dominance over the Ussuri brown bear.
The vast majority of information, data, accounts, and expert testimonies speaks for itself.
Conclusion:
Krechmar, in all his many years in the taiga, never found a single case of a brown bear killing any tiger (adult male, tigress, juveniles, cubs), nothing. He has zero evidence.
There's also not a single documented fight statistic that supports the views and opinions of Krechmar or Sysoev. All fight statistics and reports favor the tiger.
Krechmar also had no problem writing blatant lies and misinformation in his book, just so the brown bear looks better than the tiger, which is ridiculous, and only further confirms that his opinion is completely worthless, biased and unreliable. He's also contradicted his views on male tigers vs male brown bears, which just destroys his credibility even more.
All in all, judging by Krechmar's blatant lies and contradictory opinion, its safe to say that he has a clear bias and preference for bears. Not surprising though, as he is a bear enthusiast/biologist that solely specializes in studying bears.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 09-27-2024
APEX
Three informative and well-written posts about interactions between Amur tigers, Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears. I don't doubt they were appreciated by those interested in the way Amur tigers and bears coexisting in the Russian Far East interact.
Before discussing your posts, a few words about the post in which I adressed the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some of his members. In the past weeks, I talked to a number of professionals, including developers of (web)sites, owners, moderators of (large) public platforms and a few lawyers. All of them told me a lack of training and knowledge, and, as a result, a lack of understanding, selective reading, preference, dismissals of those involved in peer-reviewed documents, misinformation, hate and insult are more or less common ingredients in many contributions and discussions. It's typical for the way many people interact these days. There are, however, (legal) ways to address (some of) these problem. I'll discuss them in a future post.
I recently visited the site mentioned above. All quiet on the western front, one could say, meaning nothing changed. I did, however, find a thread created by a new member in the section 'General Discussions'. In 'Beyond the Bear and Tiger: a well deserved tribute', 'fantasticstruggle788' posted about (the life and work of) a number of Russian zoologists, biologists, naturalists and hunters. All of them,as you know, published about interactions between Amur tigers and bears in the Russian Far East.
I'm referring to K.G. Abramov (zoologist, 1883-1961), his son, V.K. Abramov (biologist, 1936-2004), L.G. Kaplanov (zoologist, 1910-1943), E.F. Bromley (zoologist, 1906-1982), S.P. Kucherenko (hunter-biologist, 1927-2009), N.N. Rukovsky (hunter and candidate of biological sciences, 1919), V.P. Sysoev (game-manager and writer, 1911-2011), N.A. Baikov (army officer, naturalist and writer, 1875-1958), S.I. Ognev (zoologist and biologist, 1886-1951), E.N. Matyushkin (zoologist and biologist, 1941-2003), V.G. Heptner (zoologist, 1901-1975) and V.G. Sokolov (zoologist, 1928-1998). The thread also has a post about Jim Corbett (1875-1955). Every post has a list of publications. My advice is to visit the thread.
Two more remarks.
One is you can't contact the administrator of another forum to tell him what you think about his creation or (some of) the members of his forum. The reason is it could be perceived as an, indirect, attempt to speak on behalf of the administrators of Wildfact. You're a member, not one of the administrators. Two is it is, in my opinion, all but pointless to contact those who have different ideas about issues you're interested in. You know most members of forums have outspoken ideas. You're not a missionary, but a member of a forum created to inform those interested about the natural world. Our aim is good information, not something else.
BROBEAR
I noticed your, somewhat indirect, invitation to join your community in order to discuss issues we're interested in. I, politely, decline. One reason is my aim is good information, not something else (referring to discussions). Two is I want to invest my time in the forum I created with Sanjay.
As to your post in which you discuss (the effects of) your background (education). Although raised in what most would consider to be (relative) poverty, I, educationwise, went all the way. This to say I know a bit about both worlds. And they really are two very different worlds. When you visit a university, you read a lot. You also learn how to conduct research, how to report and in what way the results of research have to be (can be) interpreted. It depends, to keep it short, on a lot of factors, meaning there are few absolutes.
It's important to remember to ask (yourself) questions before getting to a decision. They have to be answered. And then there's research. Every researcher has a specific goal and uses an accepted method to answer a specific question (hypothesis), but methods can be applied in different ways and not every researcher takes rules of conduct as serious as those who defined them (also referring to those who created new dimensions in the rule department and decided to keep silent about their decision). When you got to an answer, try to debunk it. Not once, but more than once. In the end, you'll end up with a quite reliable result.
Does this way of training have a result after years of investing? The answer, to a degree, is affirmative, but there are many exceptions. Also remember there's a difference between training and other factors to consider (background, personality, circumstances and money too). Meaning it depends. If you read a document or book written by someone with a good training and the intention to accurately describe a situation or a specific, say, animal, it's still up to you. In the end, it always depends on the eye of the beholder. Why is it so many consider Corbett a reliable reporter? And why is it a book written by a man with a proper training and as much experience isn't if the picture he paints is a bit different from expectation? The Russian zoologists, biologists, naturalists and hunters featuring in the thread created by your new member (see above) are as experienced as Corbett, if not more so. All of them were sincere men who invested decades trying to get to a bit of knowledge the hard way. They took a lot of time to report about the results of their quest, only to be dismissed out of hand by those guided by preconceived ideas many years later. Think about it.
In the end, it doesn't depend on training and status, but, in that order, on intentions and decisions. Sound decisions, not affected by factors like preference, outlook or an agenda. In society, all of those contributing, training or no training, are important. All of them have to decide all day, every day. They try to live up to expectation. In spite of that, all know about mistakes. Mistakes that, at times, can have terrible consequences. Who has the most responsible job? The one driving a city bus all day every day or a medical doctor visited by those affected by a disease? And who, apart from the victim, will suffer when a mistake is made? The bus driver still haunted by the child he didn't see or the medical doctor who ignored the obvious signs of a disease?
Meaning it isn't about training in the end. It's about good intentions and trying to get to sound interpretations and decisions all the time everywhere. Mistakes will always be there, but there a difference between a mistake made in complicated circumstances and a mistake based on an unsound interpretation of a situation. The second one is a result of a deliberate choice, whereas the first is a result of factors one can never ever control.
What I'm saying is it's up to you each time. Training is a factor to consider, but in the end there's individual responsability. You know there's a difference between an average newspaper report and a book or a (peer-reviewed) document. Newspaper reports today not seldom are a result of some kind of selection (referring to the influence of politics on the media), whereas a book written by someone who invested many years trying to get to a bit of knowledge and insight about a specific topic isn't. It always depends on the individual.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-01-2024
I posted this recent interview of Pavel Fomenko back in March, 2022. Which was part of the "Tiger Educational Program". But unfortunately, the video was in Russian with no English subtitles translations. I did, however, get Pavel Fomenko's words accurately translated by a Russian poster I know.
Now a YouTube channel named "BIL" has uploaded the video of Pavel Fomenko's interview with full English subtitles. In this video, Fomenko talks about tigers vs bears, the tiger's weaponry, hunting methods, and other interesting behavior.
Why are Tigers called the "Kings of the Taiga"?
In the video (7:24 mark) the reporter asks Fomenko, "Tell me why are tigers called the kings of the taiga?".
Pavel Fomenko says, because in nature, there is a (ecological) pyramid and at the top stands a specialized (apex) predator, and everything (all other animals) below it. "So there is a king there, a king at the top", he says.
The entire structure and stability below (health state of tiger prey species & habitat) depend on how steadily the tiger stands at the top, he says. He adds, "that is why we need the tiger, one of the most important elements of the biocenosis, one of the most important elements of the wild nature of the Russian Far East."
The Amur tiger is the undisputed apex predator and dominates the ecosystem of the Ussuri taiga, hence its title "King" and "Lord" of the taiga.
Hunting Methods & Weaponry
At 3:20 in the video, Fomenko talks about the tigers weaponry and hunting methods. He says the tigers claws are sharp and curved, designed for grabbing their prey, whereas bears have dull, blunt claws. This is also noticeable on tree scratches and marks. The tiger's scratches and marks are sharper (deeper) than a bear's scratches, who has blunt claws, thus a bear inflicts less damage.
Fomenko says there are several methods of killing for a tiger. In some cases, the tiger bites the top of the neck, and in some cases, the tiger bites the bottom of the neck. And with such bites, the tiger bites off arteries, and even the cervical spine is bitten through.
At 5:38 mark, he also mentions the incident of the famous tiger "Uporny" who was killed by another tiger in the Khabarovsk region. Fomenko had to examine this dead tiger, and said "it was creepy". He states: "A tiger, with its teeth, its eyes, its claws, its power, is a real killing machine, and should be treated as such. Its a machine, a killing apparatus."
Who is Stronger, a Tiger or a Bear?
At 8:25 in the video, the reporter asks Pavel Fomenko, who is stronger, a tiger or a bear?
Fomenko states: "Judging by the fact that I quite often find bear claws in tiger excrement, here is your answer to who is stronger."
Fomenko then adds that tiger vs bear fights do happen, but quite rarely. But, of course, the tiger hunts bears for a tasty, fatty steak, he says.
Tigers Killing Bears and Sleeping in their Dens
At 10:15 in the video, Fomenko is asked where do tiger families (tigress with cubs) live? Are they looking for dens, caves, fallen trees?
Fomenko says that tigers are unpretentious, they live and sleep wherever they feel comfortable. They can sleep in old bear dens, and even in new bear dens.
Its mentioned by the reporter and Fomenko, that tigers will even pull bears out of their dens, kill and eat them, and then sleep in the killed bears dens. So the tigress finds food (bears) and shelter for her cubs at the same time. By doing this, a male tiger also gets to eat one of his favorite foods (bears) and finds a comfy place to sleep.
https://vestiprim.ru/news/ptrnews/120691-tigr-i-medved-kto-silnee-tigrinyj-likbez-vypusk-4.html
All episodes:
https://vestiprim.ru/programs/tiger-educational-program/
Pavel Fomenko is a field biologist, scientist, ranger, game warden, forensic specialist, and a renowned leading tiger expert who is the Chief coordinator of the rare species department of the Amur branch of WWF Russia. He lives in the forest among the tigers and dedicates his life to protecting and studying Amur tigers, tracking poachers, and monitoring tiger numbers. He's also a surgeon who performs intensive operations on injured Amur tigers.
Fomenko is no doubt, one of the greatest Amur tiger experts and 'protectors' of our time.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/russia-s-tiger-champion-returns-to-work
https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/tiger-ranger-scientist-and-detective
Pavel Fomenko, "The Tiger Protector of Russia":
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-02-2024
APEX
Another good post. Much appreciated! I saw the interview with English subtitles just after it was (re)posted at YouTube a few days ago. Same for the other videos. I also read the articles. It was very good to find out he recovered from the injuries he sustained when he suddenly found himself between a captured tigress and her cub.
Some years ago, there was quite a discussion about tiger 'Uporny'. The young adult male was doing quite well after rehab. He tried his luck in different districts, settled down, mated with a tigress and then met with fate. I remember the photograph of Pavel during the autopsy. He was shocked to see the results of what seemed to have been an execution.
Those interested in wild Amur tigers know their numbers, largely as a result of the efforts of people like Pavel Fomenko, slowly increased. Today, there could be over 700 Amur tigers in the Russian federation and northeasern China. They've also been seen in some districts in North Korea. Although things, in this respect, seem to be going quite well, few realize wild tigers often struggle to make ends meet. Recent information from the Anyuisky National Park (referring to the period 2015-2022) suggests adults with a territory often seem able to cope with hardship (referring to the near local extinction of wild boars as a result of a disease), but youngsters not seldom pay. In the Anyuisky National Park, Gotvansky noticed tigers up to 2 years of age at times stayed together to cope with the situation. Some tigresses lost all cubs, at times even more than once.
Even when they survive a lean year, young males in particular face many problems. In the Anyuisky National Park, they occupy the less productive fringes for years. In that period, they have to learn how to avoid adult males, adult bears and humans. Poaching still is a very real problem in remote districts seldom visited by rangers and biologists. So are adult male tigers. Tiger 'Uporny' is just one example of what can happen when young males try to find a territory.
As to the info about tigers and bears you posted. I'll respond in detail in a future post. In this post, the aim is to underline there's a significant difference between 'bears' in general and large adult males (of both bear subspecies). There's enough reliable information to conclude Amur tigers consider bears up to about their own size as a potential source of food. Although the info you posted confirms male Amur tigers even hunt adult male Himalayan black bears, one has to remember incidents of this nature seem to be few. As far as I can see, it depends. In some districts, tigers habitually hunt bears, whereas they don't in others. It could depend on the time of year, although individuality and gender also seem to be factors. Tiger 'Uporny', who was collared, hunted Himalayan black bears when he was released from rehab, but the male tigers in the Anyuisky National Park, apart from a few exceptions, didn't. That is to say, Gotvansky, although he found the remains of juvenile Himalayan black bears every now and then, never found a brown bear killed by a tiger in the period 2015-2022. This also means size (referring to tigers) can be excluded as a factor.
Here's a short (0:23) video showing an encounter between male tiger 'Zeus' and a male Himalyan black bear recently posted at YouTube (by 'Pallas's Cat):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jfiQ5ebF5w
At the start of the video, it seemed the bear was preparing for a clash. The tiger, however, left the trail right in front of him and defecated a few yards from, and in full view of, the bear. As far as I can see, the tiger told him he had entered his territory. In spite of this violation, there was no follow-up. At the end of the video, however, the bear left the trail and started to climb the hill. When defecating, the tiger didn't watch the bear. He only saw his back, meaning the tiger didn't fear, and respect, him. A bit of an insult, but the bear didn't take it personal. Meaning not every encounter between males will result in animosity, let alone a life and death struggle. It depends. On factors we're not aware of. Individuality could be one of them. Although he was quite tall, the bear seemed to be a youngish adult. Had they met before?
For now, I'd say relations between tigers and bears are quite complex. They've lived in close proximity for thousands of years. During this period, they learned to tolerate each other. In the videos I watched, I never saw a lot of animosity. The tigress pushing the young male Ussuri brown bear most probably did so for a very good reason and the bear seemed to agree. The bear driving the tigress from a kill (referring to another recent video I saw on YouTube) apparently decided the tigress wasn't prepared to defend the kill. Was it the same bear male tiger 'Zeus' encountered on the trail? I don't know, but the videos I saw and the articles I read suggest (adult) tigers and bears found a way to get along most of the time. But all bets are off when the circumstances change. And then there's, in the end, individuality. Some male tigers will hunt bears at every occasion. My guess is most bears know about him and try to avoid problems. And when brown bears enter the romantic season, tigers avoid problems.
The information you posted is reliable. It says tigers win most fights with 'bears' (referring to clashes near kill sites). It also says tigers, in some seasons and districts, habitually hunt bears. While I agree some of these bears, as you said, were quite 'large', bear posters have a point when they say solid evidence of large male brown bears killed by male tigers in an open fight is lacking (referring to peer-reviewed documents only). That, however, doesn't mean tigers avoid a clash with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. It also doesn't mean adult male brown bears have the best chance in a fight, as those interested in bears suggest. Most of those who know about (interactions between) tigers and brown bears (referring to rangers, hunters and biologists) think it's the other way round. I don't doubt they have good reasons to get to that conclusion, but it's a fact serious fights between adult males of both species are few and far between, suggesting the margins could be very small. Too small to get to a conclusion.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-02-2024
(10-02-2024, 11:24 AM)peter Wrote: APEX
Another good post. Much appreciated! I saw the interview with English subtitles just after it was (re)posted at YouTube a few days ago. Same for the other videos. I also read the articles. It was very good to find out he recovered from the injuries he sustained when he suddenly found himself between a captured tigress and her cub.
Some years ago, there was quite a discussion about tiger 'Uporny'. The young adult male was doing quite well after rehab. He tried his luck in different districts, settled down, mated with a tigress and then met with fate. I remember the photograph of Pavel during the autopsy. He was shocked to see the results of what seemed to have been an execution.
Those interested in wild Amur tigers know their numbers, largely as a result of the efforts of people like Pavel Fomenko, slowly increased. Today, there could be over 700 Amur tigers in the Russian federation and northeasern China. They've also been seen in some districts in North Korea. Although things, in this respect, seem to be going quite well, few realize wild tigers often struggle to make ends meet. Recent information from the Anyuisky National Park (referring to the period 2015-2022) suggests adults with a territory often seem able to cope with hardship (referring to the near local extinction of wild boars as a result of a disease), but youngsters not seldom pay. In the Anyuisky National Park, Gotvansky noticed tigers up to 2 years of age at times stayed together to cope with the situation. Some tigresses lost all cubs, at times even more than once.
Even when they survive a lean year, young males in particular face many problems. In the Anyuisky National Park, they occupy the less productive fringes for years. In that period, they have to learn how to avoid adult males, adult bears and humans. Poaching still is a very real problem in remote districts seldom visited by rangers and biologists. So are adult male tigers. Tiger 'Uporny' is just one example of what can happen when young males try to find a territory.
As to the info about tigers and bears you posted. I'll respond in detail in a future post. In this post, the aim is to underline there's a significant difference between 'bears' in general and large adult males (of both bear subspecies). There's enough reliable information to conclude Amur tigers consider bears up to about their own size as a potential source of food. Although the info you posted confirms male Amur tigers even hunt adult male Himalayan black bears, one has to remember incidents of this nature seem to be few. As far as I can see, it depends. In some districts, tigers habitually hunt bears, whereas they don't in others. It could depend on the time of year, although individuality and gender also seem to be factors. Tiger 'Uporny', who was collared, hunted Himalayan black bears when he was released from rehab, but the male tigers in the Anyuisky National Park, apart from a few exceptions, didn't. That is to say, Gotvansky, although he found the remains of juvenile Himalayan black bears every now and then, never found a brown bear killed by a tiger in the period 2015-2022. This also means size (referring to tigers) can be excluded as a factor.
Here's a short (0:23) video showing an encounter between male tiger 'Zeus' and a male Himalyan black bear recently posted at YouTube (by 'Pallas's Cat):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jfiQ5ebF5w
At the start of the video, it seemed the bear was preparing for a clash. The tiger, however, left the trail right in front of him and defecated a few yards from, and in full view of, the bear. As far as I can see, the tiger told him he had entered his territory. In spite of this violation, there was no follow-up. At the end of the video, however, the bear left the trail and started to climb the hill. When defecating, the tiger didn't watch the bear. He only saw his back, meaning the tiger didn't fear, and respect, him. A bit of an insult, but the bear didn't take it personal. Meaning not every encounter between males will result in animosity, let alone a life and death struggle. It depends. On factors we're not aware of. Individuality could be one of them. Although he was quite tall, the bear seemed to be a youngish adult. Had they met before?
For now, I'd say relations between tigers and bears are quite complex. They've lived in close proximity for thousands of years. During this period, they learned to tolerate each other. In the videos I watched, I never saw a lot of animosity. The tigress pushing the young male Ussuri brown bear most probably did so for a very good reason and the bear seemed to agree. The bear driving the tigress from a kill (referring to another recent video I saw on YouTube) apparently decided the tigress wasn't prepared to defend the kill. Was it the same bear male tiger 'Zeus' encountered on the trail? I don't know, but the videos I saw and the articles I read suggest (adult) tigers and bears found a way to get along most of the time. But all bets are off when the circumstances change. And then there's, in the end, individuality. Some male tigers will hunt bears at every occasion. My guess is most bears know about him and try to avoid problems. And when brown bears enter the romantic season, tigers avoid problems.
The information you posted is reliable. It says tigers win most fights with 'bears' (referring to clashes near kill sites). It also says tigers, in some seasons and districts, habitually hunt bears. While I agree some of these bears, as you said, were quite 'large', bear posters have a point when they say solid evidence of large male brown bears killed by male tigers in an open fight is lacking (referring to peer-reviewed documents only). That, however, doesn't mean tigers avoid a clash with an adult male Ussuri brown bear. It also doesn't mean adult male brown bears have the best chance in a fight, as those interested in bears suggest. Most of those who know about (interactions between) tigers and brown bears (referring to rangers, hunters and biologists) think it's the other way round. I don't doubt they have good reasons to get to that conclusion, but it's a fact serious fights between adult males of both species are few and far between, suggesting the margins could be very small. Too small to get to a conclusion.
Peter, that video you posted of the male tiger 'Zeus' and male Himalayan black bear "confrontation" is a fake video. That's two different videos merged into one.
Adult male Himalayan black bears, in general, are terrified of male tigers because male tigers habitually hunt and eat them. Many biologists have stated this. Sergey Kolchin even said 'large' bears are afraid of very fresh trails of tigers (left 1-2 hours ago). Even a large male Himalayan black bear would never nonchalantly stand in front of an adult male tiger like that. And an adult male tiger would never just calmly defecate and casually walk away from a bear in his territory.
In general, whenever adult male (even large males) Himalayan black bears sense a tiger's presence or encounter a tiger, they immediately flee up trees to save themselves from tiger predation.
If that bear had actually confronted the male tiger 'Zeus', I have no doubt, that 'Zeus' would have attacked, killed and eaten him. Himalayan bears are killed and eaten by tigers all the time. They're common tiger prey. I have posted plenty of information on this.
The male tiger 'Zeus' was at the spot some time before, marking his territory, the bear arrived some weeks or months later. You can see the bear sniffing the ground, sensing the tiger's presence before, understood this is dangerous tiger territory, and immediately left the area.
Original video (notice the trees in the background. In the bear footage, all the green foliage is mostly gone, in the tiger footage, there's lush green foliage everywhere):
We also have this recent video of an adult (appears to be male) brown bear fleeing from a tigress. Experts suggested that the tigress returned to her kill, found the brown bear scavenging on her kill, and chased him out of the area.
Biologists Dale Miquelle and Ivan Seryodkin were both contacted about this case. Both said, although the bear doesn't look "large", it was an adult brown bear being chased by the tigress.
Notice the thumbnail, the bear clearly looks larger and more massive than the tigress:
I agree that relations between tigers and bears are quite complex. No doubt. However, its also a fact that bears are an important food source for tigers, and are regularly hunted and eaten by tigers, particularly male tigers. Although some tigresses and young tigers are also active bear-hunters. According to the Siberian Tiger Project biologists and research: "Bears are of great importance in the diet of tigers, second only to wild boar and red deer."
Male Amur tigers are far more aggressive, violent, and hostile towards bears, than Bengal tigers are towards sloth bears. The killing frequency is not comparable between the two subspecies. While Bengal tigers can and do, at any frequency, hunt and kill sloth bears, they primarily prefer to hunt large ungulate prey like gaur, buffalo, sambar, etc. Whereas Amur tigers love to eat bears, so much so, that its normal behaviour for some Amur tigers to prefer hunting and eating bears, instead of ungulate prey animals. (Viktor Storozhuk, 2017).
Peter, cases of Amur tigers killing and eating adult male Himalayan black bears are very common. I posted so much information on this. There are countless cases. Biologist Tkachenko repeatedly found the remains of adult Himalayan black bears (all genders & ages) in tiger excrements and carcasses of adult male black bears killed by tigers. All biologists agree that Himalayan black bears, of any sex and age, are common prey of tigers, and even the largest male black bears weighing 200 - 250 kg, are hunted and killed by tigers. (Kerley, Aramilev, Kolchin, 2011, 2021, 2022).
As to your remarks about "peer-reviewed" cases of large male brown bears killed in "open fights" by tigers. Honestly, this is a very lame excuse used by bear posters. You know why? because they know, finally, there is an undeniable, confirmed and very recent account of a male tiger that killed a large (bigger) adult male brown bear in a head-on fight.
This time we have plenty of hard evidence on video (Kill-site, partially-eaten bear carcass, badly trampled snow & grass, broken bushes, tiger & bear tracks, tiger resting place, location). The battle-ground was thoroughly examined by a team of seasoned forest rangers and game experts. Rangers who are highly trained, experienced, and qualified to track and judge the traces of wild animals. The same rangers like Yuri Kya, who know the animals intimately, and spend their entire lives in the taiga, and dedicate their lives to protecting and conserving the wild animals. The same rangers like Yuri Kya and his team, who even biologists and scientists highly respect and even rely on.
This case was verified by the Amur Tiger Center (scientific organization), 'Reserved Amur Region' (scientific organization), the Governor of the Khabarovsk territory, TV news reporter, and both Mikhail Milizhek and Yuri Kya confirmed this account via 2 emails. All the original reports, plus the 15+ additional reports, all 100% corroborate Yuri Kya's words and conclusion. What more evidence and confirmation do we need? There's plenty of solid, undeniable confirmation of this incident.
This whole scientific "peer-reviewed" account nonsense, is just a pathetic excuse used by bear posters, so they can desperately find some way to dismiss and reject this confirmed account. Its ridiculous. Peter, they're coping, and trying to cope very hard.
Going by this "peer-reviewed" argument and logic, bear posters should just reject and dismiss all the factual accounts reported by renowned hunters, naturalists like Jim Corbett, Sanderson, F.C. Hicks, Kesri Singh, Burton, etc. Because their accounts were not "peer-reviewed" in "scientific documents". But they don't, bear posters happily accept and believe NUMEROUS old hunter/naturalist stories and accounts from the 20th century, of bear interactions and fights with other animals. How come?? Look at the blatant double standards and hypocrisy.
Shall we just call all of Jim Corbett's stories and accounts 'BS' and fairy tales because they weren't scientifically "peer-reviewed" accounts??
There are many TONS of 100% reliable and factual accounts of wild animal interactions/predations reported by numerous biologists, scientists, researchers, rangers, hunters, in news reports, blogs, articles, and books from all over the world, none of which were "peer-reviewed" accounts, so does that mean all those accounts and stories written and reported by biologists, rangers, zoologists and experienced hunters are unreliable or false? Of course, not. It would be outright stupidity to just blindly reject these accounts just because they weren't "peer-reviewed".
Once again, the "peer-reviewed" argument is nothing but a lame excuse to deny factual accounts that doesn't suit some bear posters agenda and preconceived ideas.
And lastly, BROBEAR, FYI, the brown bear carcass wasn't already "frozen". After Odyr killed the large male brown bear, there was a snowfall that happened, which Yuri Kya specifically mentioned in his email. So it wasn't an "already frozen" bear carcass. Odyr had killed the bear a day before, then a snowfall happened, hence why the killed adult male brown bear carcass was covered in snow! You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're just spouting pure misinformation as always.
Its laughable that you "think" such a highly respected, experienced, trained, and qualified seasoned professional like Yuri kya and his team, are not competent enough to know what a tiger kill looks like or what a large male brown bear looks like. Its utterly hilarious. And your lame excuses and complete denial of reality and hard evidence is just unbelievable!!
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-03-2024
APEX
a - About the video I posted
Before responding to your post, I decided for some background information on the video in my last post. It's a bit of a detour, but the story, I think, is interesting.
You may remember my post about the way of interacting of the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some members. I said I would contact a few people who know a few things about forums, problems and solutions. Most of those I contacted informed me about (the reach and effect of) legal measures. Two actually read quite a few posts. They told me they got interested along the way and invested quite a bit of time. Although they know next to nothing about (interactions between) tigers and bears in the Russian Far East, they do know a few things about information, interaction and problems that often erupt during exchanges.
Both, to be complete, do not know each other. It was quite remarkable they got to similar conclusions about the (causes of the) problems I referred to. Apart from that, they quickly noticed the main differences between posters interested in good information and others. They concluded you and 'fantasticstruggles788' in particular are the main contributors in the department of information. The difference between you and 788, according to them, is you largely focus on recent information, whereas 788 posts about books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists published, say, 50-100 years ago. Another difference is 788 never adds comments and conclusions, whereas you do.
Apart from reading, those I contacted saw quite a number of videos. Both know a few things about videos and manipulation. One of them sent me a few links to videos that, in his opinion, had been manipulated. His advice was to add the link of the most recent video he found in a new post and to write a comment. He asked me to write a post today. This afternoon, we met. He explained why he asked me to write a post (with the link to the video) immediately and added he was prepared to go for a bet regarding your response.
We talked about the forum for some time. He was surprised at the number of views and added Wildfact has commercial value. When discussing a number of future scenarios, he suddenly smiled. He said he thought you would be the only one to respond and go against me within 24 hours after I posted and he was right. What I'm saying is your posts speak for themselves. So much so, a visitor was able to predict your response.
Did I immediately notice the video was fake? Negative. I did, however, see a vital part (referring to the moment the tiger and the bear met) was missing. Apart from that, I noticed the bear didn't seem to respond to the proximity of the tiger. Strange, as no Himalayan black bear in his right state of mind, no matter it's age and size, would enable an adult male Amur tiger to get within striking distance. Every Himalayan black bear knows he's on the menu of just about every Amur tiger. It's also very unlikely a wild male Amur tiger would waste a golden opportunity and decide for private matters, completely ignoring the bear. Meaning 'Pallas', who posted the video on YouTube, is involved in manipulation without a shadow of doubt.
His conclusion (referring to the man I contacted) is you're one of the few interested in good information. It's also clear you're prepared to oppose everyone involved in selling crap, meaning you're independent. This means those interested in bears are wrong in all respects and that could have been the intention. A big compliment, I think.
b - About your last posts
I could take my time to discuss the information you posted, but it speaks for itself in all respects. You answered most questions. Excellent work. Does this mean you covered all of it? The answer is not quite. Explanation.
There are two sources about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. The first consists entirely of books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists. These books were difficult to find and to read (referring to the language). This is the reason the book of V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983) was so popular for a long time. In the early eighties of the last century, I visited East-Berlin. I found and bought 'Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union' (referring to the German translation published in 1980). In 1992, the Siberian Tiger Project started. I consider all books, articles and peer-reviewed documents published in the period 1992-2024 as the second source of information.
It didn't take me long to conclude there are significant differences between books published half a century ago and those published in the last decades. In order to find out why, I tried to find English translations of books written by Russian biologists in the period 1900-1992. Dr. P. van bree assisted, but it wasn't easy. Just before the turn of the century, I joined AVA. Some of the posters interested in bears posted paragraphs and tables from the books I was after, but they used the information to underline a point made meaning it was difficult to get to a conclusion. In the end, I lost my interest. The never ending animosity and the hack contributed to the decision to quit, but the main reason was a lack of good information and the manipulative attitude of posters interested in bears.
c - About a new thread created by 'fantasticstruggle788' (a new member of 'Domain of the bears')
A few weeks ago, in the heart of bear country ('Domain of the bears'), I found (parts of the) books I was after. The new member of Brobears forum, 'fantasticstruggle788', posted English translations of paragraphs and chapters of books written by Russian biologists published before 1992 (including Kostoglod). The new member of 'Domain of the bears' is able in Russian. As he selected paragraphs and chapters in which relations between Amur tigers and bears are described in detail, those interested now have the opportunity to read them.
I read some of his contributions and got to the same conclusion as a few decades ago. I mean those who published, say, half a century ago seem to contradict those who published in the last decades. Could it be reality is a mixed bag, did tigers and bears interact in a different way half a century ago or are we missing something?
My advice is to visit the thread he started ('The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000'). When you meet '788', tell him his contributions are much appreciated. Let us know what you think.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-03-2024
(10-03-2024, 06:25 AM)peter Wrote: APEX
a - About the video I posted
Before responding to your post, I decided for some background information on the video in my last post. It's a bit of a detour, but the story, I think, is interesting.
You may remember my post about the way of interacting of the administrator of 'Domain of the bears' and some members. I said I would contact a few people who know a few things about forums, problems and solutions. Most of those I contacted informed me about (the reach and effect of) legal measures. Two actually read quite a few posts. They told me they got interested along the way and invested quite a bit of time. Although they know next to nothing about (interactions between) tigers and bears in the Russian Far East, they do know a few things about information, interaction and problems that often erupt during exchanges.
Both, to be complete, do not know each other. It was quite remarkable they got to similar conclusions about the (causes of the) problems I referred to. Apart from that, they quickly noticed the main differences between posters interested in good information and others. They concluded you and 'fantasticstruggles788' in particular are the main contributors in the department of information. The difference between you and 788, according to them, is you largely focus on recent information, whereas 788 posts about books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists published, say, 50-100 years ago. Another difference is 788 never adds comments and conclusions, whereas you do.
Apart from reading, those I contacted saw quite a number of videos. Both know a few things about videos and manipulation. One of them sent me a few links to videos that, in his opinion, had been manipulated. His advice was to add the link of the most recent video he found in a new post and to write a comment. He asked me to write a post today. This afternoon, we met. He explained why he asked me to write a post (with the link to the video) immediately and added he was prepared to go for a bet regarding your response.
We talked about the forum for some time. He was surprised at the number of views and added Wildfact has commercial value. When discussing a number of future scenarios, he suddenly smiled. He said he thought you would be the only one to respond and go against me within 24 hours after I posted and he was right. What I'm saying is your posts speak for themselves. So much so, a visitor was able to predict your response.
Did I immediately notice the video was fake? Negative. I did, however, see a vital part (referring to the moment the tiger and the bear met) was missing. Apart from that, I noticed the bear didn't seem to respond to the proximity of the tiger. Strange, as no Himalayan black bear in his right state of mind, no matter it's age and size, would enable an adult male Amur tiger to get within striking distance. Every Himalayan black bear knows he's on the menu of just about every Amur tiger. It's also very unlikely a wild male Amur tiger would waste a golden opportunity and decide for private matters, completely ignoring the bear. Meaning 'Pallas', who posted the video on YouTube, is involved in manipulation without a shadow of doubt.
His conclusion (referring to the man I contacted) is you're one of the few interested in good information. It's also clear you're prepared to oppose everyone involved in selling crap, meaning you're independent. This means those interested in bears are wrong in all respects and that could have been the intention. A big compliment, I think.
b - About your last posts
I could take my time to discuss the information you posted, but it speaks for itself in all respects. You answered most questions. Excellent work. Does this mean you covered all of it? The answer is not quite. Explanation.
There are two sources about tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. The first consists entirely of books written by Russian hunter-biologists, zoologists and naturalists. These books were difficult to find and to read (referring to the language). This is the reason the book of V. Mazak ('Der Tiger', 1983) was so popular for a long time. In the early eighties of the last century, I visited East-Berlin. I found and bought 'Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union' (referring to the German translation published in 1980). In 1992, the Siberian Tiger Project started. I consider all books, articles and peer-reviewed documents published in the period 1992-2024 as the second source of information.
It didn't take me long to conclude there are significant differences between books published half a century ago and those published in the last decades. In order to find out why, I tried to find English translations of books written by Russian biologists in the period 1900-1992. Dr. P. van bree assisted, but it wasn't easy. Just before the turn of the century, I joined AVA. Some of the posters interested in bears posted paragraphs and tables from the books I was after, but they used the information to underline a point made meaning it was difficult to get to a conclusion. In the end, I lost my interest. The never ending animosity and the hack contributed to the decision to quit, but the main reason was a lack of good information and the manipulative attitude of posters interested in bears.
c - About a new thread created by 'fantasticstruggle788' (a new member of 'Domain of the bears')
A few weeks ago, in the heart of bear country ('Domain of the bears'), I found (parts of the) books I was after. The new member of Brobears forum, 'fantasticstruggle788', posted English translations of paragraphs and chapters of books written by Russian biologists published before 1992 (including Kostoglod). The new member of 'Domain of the bears' is able in Russian. As he selected paragraphs and chapters in which relations between Amur tigers and bears are described in detail, those interested now have the opportunity to read them.
I read some of his contributions and got to the same conclusion as a few decades ago. I mean those who published, say, half a century ago seem to contradict those who published in the last decades. Could it be reality is a mixed bag, did tigers and bears interact in a different way half a century ago or are we missing something?
My advice is to visit the thread he started ('The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000'). When you meet '788', tell him his contributions are much appreciated. Let us know what you think.
I've already seen that thread "The Ussuri brown bear 1950-2000" and read the information published by biologist Kostoglod on Amur tiger-Brown bear relations.
Kostoglod published information about serious fights between Amur tigers and brown bears, and as usual, like most Russian experts, after analyzing the data, Kostoglod concluded and reported that the tiger is more often the winner in a fight. This part was completely ignored by the bear posters on that forum.
Kostoglod stated:
"The outcome of the struggle is more often in favor of the tiger, but there are also quite a few cases where the (brown) bear managed to kill the opponent."
What kind of tigers perished in fights with brown bears?
Kostoglod stated:
"Since in such encounters it is more likely that weakened individuals, including injured ones, will perish, it is possible that the activity of the brown bear helps eliminate potential man-eaters from the tiger population."
This was also noted by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists in their scientific research papers.
Both these statements from Kostoglod were ignored by bear posters. According to Kostoglod, its most likely that brown bears killed already weakened, sick, or injured tigers in those fights, not healthy tigers. Even from Kostoglod's data and testimony, the tiger is more often the winner, which is consistent with most Russian biologists, zoologists, naturalists, rangers and hunters testimonies. Kostoglod's fight statistics and data is in favor of the tiger.
And Peter, I have to do this, because BroBear doesn't cease to spread blatant lies and misinformation about Yuri Kya's account. And he's also calling you out on this.
BroBear
You said: "My question to the "top cat" at WF is, why do you not investigate further the story of Odyr and bears (plural)? Such as the man who identified the 3-year old bear (carcass) and the man on-site who mentioned that the footprints don't match the size of the dead bear?"
Now read this slowly and very carefully Brobear, and let it sink in deep....
There was NO MAN "on-site" who mentioned that the footprints "don't match" the size of the dead bear! And there was NO MAN who "identified" the so-called "3-year old bear" carcass! What the hell are you talking about?? This is a blatant lie and outright misinformation. Where's the evidence? Statements? News reports?
I already debunked that clearly fake (completely isolated) email, allegedly from "Mikhail Milezhik" that claims the dead brown bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha". Absolute nonsense! There's NOT A SINGLE other source, shred of evidence, report, nothing, that corroborates with that alleged, (fake) email which was fabricated by bear fans.
BroBear, how come not a single other source (and there are plenty) mentions that the killed brown bear was a "3 year old" bear named "Misha"?? If that was true, it would have certainly been reported in at least several different sources. But there's absolutely NONE, zero! ... there's only that completely isolated, dubious, alleged "email". How come?
And stop blatantly lying about this imaginary man "on-site" who "mentioned" that the foot-prints "don't match" the size of the dead bear. That's a bold-faced lie. Didn't you see the video??
The only people at the kill-site were Yuri Kya and his team! Yuri Kya, who's the expert authority, and his team definitively concluded based on all the hard, undeniable evidence at the kill-site which they thoroughly examined, that the male tiger 'Odyr' indeed slaughtered a large, "impressive-sized" adult male brown bear in a fierce, prolonged fight. Yuri Kya saw signs and clear traces of a violent struggle all over the forest clearing! He was even able to determine where the fight began! (next to the forest index sign).
BroBear, why do you deliberately ignore all these facts? Why do you constantly lie and put your own made-up twist on accounts? Why are you inventing imaginary people who were at the kill-site?? Its pathetic.
Again, watch the video very carefully, Yuri Kya specifically mentions that they "trampled the glade during the fight" and when he see's the killed brown bear carcass up-close, he clearly says "impressive bear".
Now read, BroBear... read very carefully and understand:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
He see's the killed brown bear, and says: "Impressive bear". Where is the imaginary "3 year old bear" carcass?? Or is Yuri Kya and his team blind or hallucinated??
*This image is copyright of its original author
Why was the killed adult male brown bear carcass covered in snow?
Well, BroBear, hear straight from the horse's mouth yourself:
Dear Yuri Kya:
"I found news in your reserve. The tiger killed the brown bear. The bear has a front paw callus width of 18 cm. Tell me, is this measured correctly? If correct, this is an adult male brown bear. This is the answer the WCS animal expert would like to know. Is this an adult male brown bear?"
Yuri Kya:
"Yes, indeed, there was such a case when our tiger caught a male brown bear. I confirm the width of the front heel. Unfortunately, it was not possible to accurately "trace" (track) the entire chain of events of the tiger hunt, at that time there was a heavy snowfall. But on the spot there was a lot of broken bushes and withered grass trampled down. The predator was scared away from the prey by all-terrain caterpillar vehicles, later it returned to the remains of the bear more than once. Later, I traced his trail, but the tiger received minor damage to its paw."
"Earlier, I repeatedly found the claws of bears in the feces of tigers, as well as traces of their successful hunts, some of which they got from dens in winter."
Yuri Kya's email:
https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/60400/202306/177_1d2a99bb0e219f5af7e90014eb32b670_t.jpg
There you go!! After Odyr killed the large male brown bear, there was a snowfall that happened! Not my words, but Yuri Kya's words! Now you know why the bear carcass was covered in snow when they got there.
2nd email from Mikhail Milezhik
Mikhail Milizhek already verified Yuri Kya's account and confirmed that the tiger Odyr indeed killed an adult brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm:
Q: I saw in your reserve the news that the northeast tiger killed an adult brown bear, which said that he had a palm width of 18 centimeters. Is it true? Thank you, I wish you all the best!
Mikhail Milezhik：Hello, yes the information is valid.
Mikhail Milezhik's email:
https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/60400/202301/177_44c8bd1075ab58eb641ce7fbadd5f78c_t.jpg
Brobear, why do you deliberately ignore these 2 emails?? How come neither Yuri Kya or Mikhail Milezhik mentioned that it was a "3 year old" bear killed by Odyr?? How come they both confirmed that the tiger Odyr killed an adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm?
And the video (above) speaks for itself and clearly exposes the nonsense you constantly spew about this case, period.
Confirmation of this account:
Brobear, as I mentioned in my previous post which you (obviously) completely ignored, the account of the male tiger Odyr hunting and killing the large adult male brown bear was verified by the Amur Tiger Center (scientific organization), 'Reserved Amur Region' (scientific organization), the Governor of the Khabarovsk region, TV news reporter, and both Mikhail Milezhik and Yuri Kya confirmed this account via 2 emails. All the original reports, plus the additional 15+ reports, all 100% corroborate Yuri Kya's statements and conclusions. So yes, this is an indisputable, undeniable and confirmed account of a large, full-grown adult male brown bear falling prey to a smaller tiger. Whether you like it or not.
There was plenty, I repeat....plenty of hard evidence at the kill-site, which made Yuri Kya and his team of seasoned experts, conclusively determine that the male tiger 'Odyr' that they've known for many years (very intimately), indeed hunted, killed, and ate a large, healthy, full-grown adult male brown bear with a palm callus width of 18 cm.
Hence why this case was confirmed and reported on LIVE TV news, by the Governor, and confirmed by the biologists & employees working for two scientific organizations - Amur Tiger Center and 'Reserved Amur Region'.
The video, countless (ALL) reports, TV News, confirmation from TWO scientific organizations, and the 2 emails, completely debunk and expose that clearly FAKE and ISOLATED "email", which claims the killed bear was a "3 year old" named "Misha".
And lastly, BroBear, you're a compulsive liar who loves to spread blatant lies and misinformation about tiger-bear relations, you invent imaginary characters who don't exist, and you love to put your own made-up spin on accounts and ridicule highly reputable and experienced biologists, rangers, zoologists, hunters, and other authorities, just because they often say facts that doesn't suit your fanatical agenda and preconceived ideas.
Your whole extremely biased opinion on tiger-brown bear relations, is solely based on guesswork, wild speculations, false empty claims, and zero evidence. Add to this, you even love to ridicule and dismiss expert authorities who are a million times more experienced, qualified, and knowledgeable than you are. That says it all.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-07-2024
APEX
You know there are a few forums about the natural world. Each forum is different. Some were created to present and discuss information about one species in particular, whereas others have a different aim.
The aim of Wildfact is to collect reliable information about those making their home in the natural world. Although the owners want to offer information about many species, most members are interested in big cats. The lion section is large and interesting. Most unfortunately, only few members are interested in jaguars and leopards. The tiger section is a bit larger, but not by much. Every now and then, a (new) members posts about other species.
In spite of our limited reach in this respect (referring to the number of species discussed), Wildfact had well over 100 million views in about 10 years. There are different reasons, but those who know a bit more told us visitors often read more than one page and, furthermore, often return for more. A result of the quality of the information offered, or a result of the policy to apply the rules in a strict way? We're not sure, but we do know our mods take their job serious.
Returning to the aim of this post.
Two of the most active members in the tiger section are interested in interactions between Amur tigers, Himalayan black bears and Ussuri brown bears in the Russian Far East. Their aim is to find and discuss reliable information, meaning information collected by those who know a few things about wild Amur tigers (referring to naturalists, villagers, hunters, hunter-biologists, zoologists and biologists). It resulted in a lengthy, but well visited, thread.
Those visiting different animal forums know they're not the only ones interested in tigers and bears. All in all, one could say opinions about the way tigers and bears interact in the Russian Far East in particular differ quite a bit and be close. There are different reasons. We could discuss them, but we could also decide to focus on good information only. Our proposal is to do exactly that. The main reason is this method is the most productive. Experience says discussions only very seldom produce something of interest. The most common product is animosity of some kind. The latest exchange is just another example.
After your last post, to be more concrete, I visited the home of those you addressed. In the eyes of the administrator of the site and some members, the male brown bear killed in November 2022 by male tiger 'Odyr' was a 3-year old male. And that's final. You could try to convince them, but you know they're not to be convinced. You also know you're not a missionary. Your aim is to find and discuss good information. Meaning it ends here.
Does this post mean your last posts were not appreciated? Far from it. They were informative, interesting and well above par in all respects. Our proposal is to continue in this department.
THE EFFECTS OF BIRD FLU ON CAPTIVE LIONS AND TIGERS
The Netherlands, as you may know, has quite a few firms breeding domestic animals for consumption. A few years ago, the bird flu, again, struck. I more or less followed the proceedings. The conclusion for now is it's here to stay. This means the virus most probably is adapting all the time.
Can other species be infected? The answer is affirmative. Captive big cats are an example, but they're not the only ones.
Here's a short report I found on the site of the NOS (Dutch National Broadcasting Company). It's in Dutch, so you have to use the translator. The report says 3 lions and almost 50 tigers (!) affected by the bird flu in August and September this year died in (two?) zoos in Ho-Chi-Minh-City (the former Hanoi) in Vietnam:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2539554-tientallen-tijgers-in-vietnamese-dierentuinen-doodgegaan-aan-vogelgriep
THE FEDERAL STATE BUDGETARY INSTITUTION 'RESERVED PRIAMURYE' - NEWS ARCHIVE
A year ago or thereabout, there was a discussion about the size of the tigers in the Khabarovsky Krai. As a result of a lack of reliable information, those involved in the discussion had no option but to use indirect information (referring to descriptions of biologists and information about the 'heel width' collected by A. Gotvansky in the Bolshekthekhtsirsky Reserve and the Anyuisky National Park). The discussion, as usual, produced a lot of animosity.
During the discussion, I wrote I found information about the 'heel width' of a number of large male tigers in a few reports found in the 'News Archive' of the Federal State Institution 'Reserved Priamurye'. I added I printed them, but was unable to scan them. Most of those involved in the discussion didn't believe one word of it, the discussion collapsed and two of those participating (PC and Guate) left, never to return.
A few weeks ago, a neighbour with skills in the department of scans came over to sort it out. The result was most reports were scanned. One problem is they're in Dutch, meaning you have to use the translator. Another problem is not all sentences survived the scan. If a scan was affected, I'll inform you in the liner notes.
When I'm done scanning (in 1-2 weeks from now), I'll post them in a new series.
VIDEOS
My guess is the discussion about (interactions and fights between) tigers and bears (in the Russian Far East) will never be concluded. The main reason is naturalists, hunters and biologists contradict each other at times. Another is the difference of opinion beween the general public and those who know a few things about the effects of specialisation.
About a year ago, I visited a new facility not too far from Amsterdam. It had three brown bears, and adult male and two adult females. I thought the male was from Russia, but I'm not sure. I'm sure about his size though (I made a few notes). He was tall (close to 4 feet at the shoulders while standing), big (judging from the sedated male I saw from a few feet in another facility at least 350 kg or 773 pounds) and in excellent shape. He was a giant. The females were not small either. The facility also had a number of Amur tigers. We only saw one, an adult female. She was unusually tall and long and in very good shape. Staff members told me the male was one of the largest they had seen, but he was sleeping. These two, by the way, were sent to a facility in Kazakhstan a week ago. Kazakhstan, as you may know, intents to reintroduce tigers and, for this reason, created a new reserve. The two tigers from the facility I visited (see above) are part of the project. Captive Amur tigers in good condition will be used for the project as well. The intention is to release their offspring into the new reserve.
While watching both (referring to the bears and the tigress), I heard the conversations around me. Not one of those watching thought the tiger (tigress in this case) wouldn't stand a chance against the giant male bear. When discussing tigers and bears with friends, the conclusion was similar. Based on what I heard, I'd say at least 90% of the public favours an adult male brown bear over any adult male Amur tiger. The reason is captive brown bears often are large and big.
Like those who joined the Domain, Apex, most people just can't imagine a tiger would be able to kill an adult male brown bear in an open fight. You can post what you want, but my guess is their opinion will never change. The main reason is size and robustness.
The facility I visited in the late nineties and the first decade of this century wasn't open for the public. Those following workshops were professionals (army, police and security), athletes (judo, weight lifting, body building and martial arts) and trainers. Compared to the general public, they had a different opinion. The reason was they knew about (the effects of) specialisation (and training). The male brown bear in that facility was as large as the one we saw in the new facility, whereas the male lions and tigers ranged between 170-210 kg.
Anyhow. The aim is to post a few videos in order to show you the difference between an adult wild male Ussuri brown bear and an adult wild male Amur tiger. Remember individual variation in both species is pronounced. Adult male Ussuri brown bears average 275 kg (range 180-450, at times over 500), whereas adult male Amur tigers average 170-210 kg (range 140-270, possibly up to 300).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFS9KQS9VLI (BiL, Jewish Autonomous Oblast) - Male Amur tiger 'Grom' and a large male Ussuri brown bear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDYmaczatqs (BiL, 01:05) - Male Amur tiger, male Ussuri brown bear and two hikers compared
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY_xRfJvWdM (Tigersforever10, 00:43) - Male Amur tiger and male Ussuri brown bear compared
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnCopqsUZOg (BiL, 03:52) - Amur tiger 'Jack' (beat 'Ochkarik' and lost to 'Martyn') and a male Ussuri brown bear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn3IRjeYsQ4 (Tigersforever10, 00:19) - Male Amur tiger 'Martyn'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gXej7arxRs (BiL, 00:17) - Amur tiger 'Ochkarik' (160-180 kg according to Batalov) compared to two hikers
https://www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27391/4585639/ - Article (Alexander Batalov) about 'Ochkarik', 'Jack' and 'Martyn'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NxhjxLAOv4 (Tigersforever10, 00:19) - Very large male Ussuri brown bear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpczjqQNVXE (Tigersforever10, 01:53) - Tigers and a big male Ussuri brown bear in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBSaLJUUxeo (BiL, 01:52) - Male Ussuri brown bears and male Amur tigers compared
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs1Vmt8qtsQ (BiL, 00:33) - Male Amur tiger, Himalayan black bear and a very large male Ussuri brown bear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqSvqePgIHg (Tigersforever, 01:23) - A few large male Amur tigers
In most videos, the male brown bears are heavier and (a bit) taller. They also have slightly longer heads and skulls. Male Amur tigers, on the other hand, seem a bit longer (referring to head and body length measured in a straight line). Very large Ussuri brown bears can be 2-3 times the weight of an average male Amur tiger. Russian biologists know, but think they don't stand much of a chance in a fight with an adult male Amur tiger. In a video that was posted in this thread, Sergej Aramilev explaines why they got to that conclusion.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-08-2024
@peter
I agree, I'm done responding to BroBear's posts. However, here are my last remarks about BroBear, which highlights the purpose of my last posts in this thread.
The sole purpose of my last posts was not to "convince" BroBear, but the aim solely was to expose and debunk the outright blatant lies and misinformation he, and some of his members, are deliberately spreading, especially about Yuri Kya's account. My aim was to also debunk that phoney and completely isolated, alleged "email", which I also easily did.
I was just exposing the fraudsters, so the general public can see the truth and real facts about this account. In order for people to learn, the pathological liars and fraudsters who spread pure misinformation and lies must be exposed. Their blatant double standards, inconsistencies and hypocrisy must also be exposed.
I genuinely believe that BroBear know's for a fact that Odyr indeed hunted, fought, and killed a large, full-grown male brown bear of impressive-size, but he simply cannot admit it. Why? because once he admits it, the debate has ended and his whole agenda and false opinion gets completely destroyed. Hence why, instead of accepting the truth and reality, he'd rather ridicule and dismiss highly respected, experienced, and trained professionals and seasoned experts, and deliberately ignore other crucial evidences which clearly debunk and expose his lies, misinformation, wild opinions and guesswork. Hence why he'd also rather invent some imaginary person who was at the "kill-site", instead of accepting reality and facts.
BroBear knows that it wasn't a "3 year old bear" killed by Odyr, he knows that when Yuri Kya saw the bear carcass up-close, he specifically said "impressive bear", he knows Yuri Kya saw clear signs and traces of a prolonged fight all over the forest clearing, and he know's Yuri Kya confirmed first-hand (via email) the 18 cm paw width of the killed male brown bear. He also knows the account was confirmed by TWO scientific organizations (Amur Tiger Center & 'Reserved Amur Region'). And he also knows this case was reported on live TV news, in which the reporter specified that it was a "large brown bear" with a palm callus width of 18 cm, killed by the tiger. But he will never admit it, period.
I seriously believe (I'm not joking) that even if a 8K UHD video was filmed (by a biologist) up-close of a tiger killing a full-grown adult male brown bear, instead of accepting it, BroBear would most likely say its a fake A.I. created footage or CGI. He, and his side-kick, still wouldn't accept even hard video evidence of it happening. That's how bad it is with them. So I already knew right from the start, that there's no "convincing" BroBear, or some of his members. Its about exposing lies and showing the truth.
And lastly, Peter, remember, some years ago on this very forum, BroBear openly admitted and stated: "Big mature male brown bears are probably killed occasionally by tigers" (Page 18, post #256).
BroBear also stated: "I do believe that tigers can and have killed mature healthy full-grown grizzly boars within the last one-million years that they shared the environment of the Russian wilderness. Probably hundreds of such events." (page 124, post #1,860).
BroBear also stated: "I am sure that historically there have been bloody fights within the wilderness of Russia where full-grown grizzlies have been killed by tigers. A tiger is a predator, perhaps the greatest land-based predator living. He is a professional assassin - a killer. He has the tools of the trade and knows how to use them." (page 124, post #1,857).
These statements speak for themselves. BroBear knows for a fact, that a tiger is more than capable of killing a fully-grown, healthy adult male brown bear in a head-on fight. He knows that Odyr killed a large male brown bear. And he knows that there are plenty of cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears (especially after the abundance of evidence & information I posted) but he'll never admit it, for obvious reasons.
Anyways, like I said, those were my last comments about BroBear and his compulsive lies. Moving on ....
As for the videos you posted:
Nice videos, I've already seen them all. But Peter, this video you posted also shows comparisons between tigresses and adult male brown bears, not only male tigers.
Tigress & adult male brown bear (0:21), tigress & male brown bear (0:57), tigress 'Rashel' & the huge male brown bear 'Chlamyda' (1:08), brown bear & a young looking tiger (1:14):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBSaLJUUxeo
Quote:About a year ago, I visited a new facility not too far from Amsterdam. It had three brown bears, and adult male and two adult females. I thought the male was from Russia, but I'm not sure. I'm sure about his size though (I made a few notes). He was tall (close to 4 feet at the shoulders while standing), big (judging from the sedated male I saw from a few feet in another facility at least 350 kg or 773 pounds) and in excellent shape. He was a giant. The females were not small either. The facility also had a number of Amur tigers. We only saw one, an adult female. She was unusually tall and long and in very good shape. Staff members told me the male was one of the largest they had seen, but he was sleeping. These two, by the way, were sent to a facility in Kazakhstan a week ago. Kazakhstan, as you may know, intents to reintroduce tigers and, for this reason, created a new reserve. The two tigers from the facility I visited (see above) are part of the project. Captive Amur tigers in good condition will be used for the project as well. The intention is to release their offspring into the new reserve.
While watching both (referring to the bears and the tigress), I heard the conversations around me. Not one of those watching thought the tiger (tigress in this case) wouldn't stand a chance against the giant male bear. When discussing tigers and bears with friends, the conclusion was similar. Based on what I heard, I'd say at least 90% of the public favours an adult male brown bear over any adult male Amur tiger. The reason is captive brown bears often are large and big.
Not surprising at all, because those peoples opinions were based on watching a 'giant' male brown bear (likely weighing 400+kg) and a tigress.
They never got to see the large male tiger, which is a totally different story. So this comparison is clearly unfair, and their (laymen) opinions mean nothing.
Quote:Like those who joined the Domain, Apex, most people just can't imagine a tiger would be able to kill an adult male brown bear in an open fight. You can post what you want, but my guess is their opinion will never change. The main reason is size and robustness.
The facility I visited in the late nineties and the first decade of this century wasn't open for the public. Those following workshops were professionals (army, police and security), athletes (judo, weight lifting, body building and martial arts) and trainers. Compared to the general public, they had a different opinion. The reason was they knew about (the effects of) specialisation (and training). The male brown bear in that facility was as large as the one we saw in the new facility, whereas the male lions and tigers ranged between 170-210 kg.
Exactly. Many forum members (most of which are complete laymen, and even high school kids) "can't imagine" a tiger killing a larger adult male brown bear in a fight. However, the professionals (athletes, martial artists, army soldiers, police, weight-lifters, etc) you talked to had a different opinion, and favored the tiger? I assume.
Because they know, the tiger possesses the far more vital advantages and attributes (speed, agility, power, predatory skill, aggression, weaponry, precision, reflexes etc) that is much more important in a serious fight and can easily nullify the large adult male brown bear's weight advantage.
Anyone who knows about training and fighting, and what it takes to win, knows that size and weight is not everything. Skills, speed, power, agility, killer instinct, precision and efficiency, is far more important, particularly in a street fight with no rules.
This is one of the reasons why most Russian biologists, zoologists, rangers, naturalists, and hunters heavily favor the tiger over even a huge male Ussuri brown bear (400-600 kg), which is a significantly slower, less agile, less skilled, and more clumsier animal with inferior weaponry.
Quote:In most videos, the male brown bears are heavier and (a bit) taller. They also have slightly longer heads and skulls. Male Amur tigers, on the other hand, seem a bit longer (referring to head and body length measured in a straight line). Very large Ussuri brown bears can be 2-3 times the weight of an average male Amur tiger. Russian biologists know, but think they don't stand much of a chance in a fight with an adult male Amur tiger. In a video that was posted in this thread, Sergej Aramilev explaines why they got to that conclusion.
R
Its very telling that majority of people who favor the adult male brown bear in a fight, are random, completely unqualified forum posters (many of which are clueless, very biased, and base their opinions on preference or patriotism) or the general public (laymen), whereas the majority of people who favor the male tiger in a fight, are highly reputable, experienced professionals and experts such as Russian biologists, zoologists, scientists, naturalists, rangers, and even locals, natives, and hunters, the people who actually live and work with tigers and bears for their entire lives. This is very telling.
Most people who favor the male Ussuri brown bear = Forum posters and laymen.
Most people who favor the male Amur tiger = Biologists, zoologists, scientists, rangers, naturalists, natives, and experienced hunters.
That says it all. What does this show?
Back in 2020 (before his 2021 video interview), 'Russia Beyond' published an article about who would win in a fight between a tiger and grizzly bear. Aramilev highlights the fact that tigers are highly skilled killers, whereas bears are vegetarians, scavengers, and very inefficient killers. It is also noted that naturalists favor the tiger in a fight between two heavyweight rivals.
Biologist Sergey Aramilev thinks a fight between a very large male brown bear vs a tigress or small male, is practically an equal duel. Russian zoologist Timofey Bazhenov said, in a fight between a tiger and brown bear, "as a rule" the tiger wins.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-09-2024
DERSU THE TRAPPER - THE BOOK
"... Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev (1872-1930) undertook twelve major scientific expeditions between 1902 and 1930 in the Siberian Far East, and authored some sixty (!) works on the geography and ethnography of the region. Among these, Dersu the Trapper has earned a privileged place in Russian literature. In this Russian counterpart to The Journals of Lewis and Clark and the novels of James Fenimore Cooper, Arseniev combines the precise observations of a naturalist with an exciting narrative of real-life adventure.
Arseniev describes three explorations in trhe Ussurian taiga along the Sea of Japan above Vladivostok, beginning with his first encounter of the solitary aboriginal hunter named Dersu, a member of the Gold tribe, who thereafter becomes his guide. Each expedition is beset with hardship and danger: through blizzard and flood and assorted deprivations, these two men forge an exceptional friendship in their mutual respect for the immense grandeur of the wilderness. But the bridges across language, race and culture also have limitations, and the incrusion of civilization exacts its toll.
Dersu the Trapper is at once a witnessing of Russia's last frontier and a poignant memoir of rare cross-cultural understanding. Originally published in 1941, this English translation is reprinted in its entirity now for the first time ... " (from the front cover of 'Dersu the Trapper', McPherson & Company, 1996).
DERSU UZALA - THE MOVIE
Uploaded - Mosfilm
Length - 2.21:45
Direction - Akira Kurusawa
Year of production - 1975
Prizes and awards in the period 1975-1977 - 11
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFaL03SKEzE&t=36s
APPRECIATION
The book is one of the best I read. You can find it in most book stores. Buy it when you have the opportunity.
The film is considered as a 'masterpiece' by many. My advice is to see it while you can (English subtitles).
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-09-2024
(10-09-2024, 04:25 AM)peter Wrote: DERSU THE TRAPPER - THE BOOK
"... Vladimir Klavdievich Arseniev (1872-1930) undertook twelve major scientific expeditions between 1902 and 1930 in the Siberian Far East, and authored some sixty (!) works on the geography and ethnography of the region. Among these, Dersu the Trapper has earned a privileged place in Russian literature. In this Russian counterpart to The Journals of Lewis and Clark and the novels of James Fenimore Cooper, Arseniev combines the precise observations of a naturalist with an exciting narrative of real-life adventure.
Arseniev describes three explorations in trhe Ussurian taiga along the Sea of Japan above Vladivostok, beginning with his first encounter of the solitary aboriginal hunter named Dersu, a member of the Gold tribe, who thereafter becomes his guide. Each expedition is beset with hardship and danger: through blizzard and flood and assorted deprivations, these two men forge an exceptional friendship in their mutual respect for the immense grandeur of the wilderness. But the bridges across language, race and culture also have limitations, and the incrusion of civilization exacts its toll.
Dersu the Trapper is at once a witnessing of Russia's last frontier and a poignant memoir of rare cross-cultural understanding. Originally published in 1941, this English translation is reprinted in its entirity now for the first time ... " (from the front cover of 'Dersu the Trapper', McPherson & Company, 1996).
DERSU UZALA - THE MOVIE
Uploaded - Mosfilm
Length - 2.21:45
Direction - Akira Kurusawa
Year of production - 1975
Prizes and awards in the period 1975-1977 - 11
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFaL03SKEzE&t=36s
APPRECIATION
The book is one of the best I read. You can find it in most book stores. Buy it when you have the opportunity.
The film is considered as a 'masterpiece' by many. My advice is to see it while you can (English subtitles).
You can read the entire English version of "Dersu The Trapper" book right here:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.80857/mode/2up
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-15-2024
SERGEJ ARAMILEV ON INTERACTIONS BETWEEN TIGERS AND BEARS IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST
For those who missed the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rltc-1zqF-M (English substitles)
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-15-2024
Adult male Amur tiger and adult male Ussuri brown bear Size Comparison
The following pictures will highlight the true size of the Amur tiger in comparison to one of the largest species of bears (similar in size to Kodiak and Alaskan coastal brown bears) on earth - the Ussuri brown bear, which is the same size as the Kamchatka brown bear, and can rival the sizes/weights of some of the largest male Kodiak brown bears. In fact, according to some experienced Russian biologist-hunters and bear specialists like Kucherenko and Bromley, the Ussuri brown bear is even larger than the Kamchatka brown bear.
According to the weight data of biologist Bromley, mentioned by bear biologist-hunter, Mikhail Krechmar in his book, the largest male and female Ussuri brown bears (321 kg, 199 kg) were larger than the largest male and female Kamchatka brown bears (185 kg, 176 kg):
"In the most exhaustive summary, Terrestrial Vertebrates of Eastern Kamchatka, the thoughtful researcher Yuri Averin gives measurements for more than twenty killed bears. The largest weight of the Kamchatka bear, according to his data, was 185 kg, and the female - 179 kg. In the south of the Far East, detailed work on bears - (Ussuri) brown and white-breasted - was carried out by Gordey Fedorovich Bromley. His largest male weighed 321 kg, the female - 199 kg."
https://litres.com/book/mihail-krechmar/mohnatyy-bog-4989181/read/?page=4
So even many male Amur tigers can be larger and weigh more than a fully-grown, mature adult male Kamchatka brown bear.
Russian field biologist & leading bear expert, Sergey Kolchin (who studies the biology of both Ussuri & Kamchatka brown bears), stated that Ussuri brown bears are not inferior in size to the brown bears of Alaska and Kamchatka:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Exaggeration of Brown Bear Size
Many people tend to grossly exaggerate the size of brown bear subspecies in comparison to tigers or lions. They deliberately make incorrect and highly biased photo comparisons, in which they cherry-pick pictures of huge male brown bears and compare them to pictures of tigresses, or deliberately scale the bear to be much larger, so it creates the illusion that brown bears significantly outsize tigers. Thus, greatly exaggerates the size of the brown bear. Its nothing but fake propaganda to make the Ussuri brown bear, or Kodiak bear look anatomically much larger, which is false.
In reality, tigers are absolutely massive apex predators. And many individuals of both Bengal and Amur tigers are larger and heavier than many individuals of adult male brown bears of various subspecies (American grizzly, Eurasian, East Siberian, Kamchatka, Ussuri, etc). Both Amur and Bengal tigers are, on average, larger (referring to body dimensions) than European brown bears and Yellowstone grizzly bears, and if both predators stood bipedally, the tiger would usually tower over the bear.
The photos below, will also show why Amur tigers have been well documented to hunt and kill large adult brown bears of similar-size in numerous cases, and show that male Amur tigers have all the size and mass needed to successfully predate on large adult male brown bears, which they've done so in multiple cases.
Instead of posting false size comparison pictures created and posted by bear fans, let's take a look at actual real pictures and videos (reality) of size comparisons between adult male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears captured on camera traps. And you'll clearly see, that male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears are very similar in size. Although the bear, on average, is significantly heavier due to much higher body fat percentages, the tiger is longer, more muscular, and a bit taller (bipedally).
In fact, in some cases, adult male tigers can be even larger (even weigh more) than adult male Ussuri brown bears. Individual size & weight can greatly vary among mammals, especially between two large carnivores of similar size.
Examples of False Size Comparisons:
These clearly incorrect and ridiculous size comparison pictures were created by a bear fan, who deliberately cherry-picked a picture of a large, full-grown male Ussuri brown bear and compared it to a picture of a tigress, in order to greatly exaggerate the bear's size and robustness.
A full-grown adult male Ussuri brown bear compared to a tigress, NOT a male tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A frontal view of a large male brown bear and tigress size comparison, which he tried passing off as an "adult male tiger", an outright lie: (Laughable size comparison)
*This image is copyright of its original author
The above (fan-made) comparisons are gross exaggerations of the male Ussuri brown bears' size compared to Amur tigers.
Here's Reality:
Correct Size Comparison Photos & Videos of Adult Male Amur Tigers and Adult Male Ussuri Brown Bears Captured on Camera Traps
Here's a real size comparison between a tigress and adult male brown bear; A medium-sized adult male brown bear fleeing from a tigress:
Adult male tiger and adult male brown bear size comparison. The tiger looks larger, the bear is fat and in excellent condition:
Size comparison between the huge male tiger "The Beast" and the largest male brown bear of that area in the Anyuisky National Park. Biologist Alexey Gotvansky, who knew this tiger and bear very well for many years, said this particular male brown bear was "huge" and "large" and stated: "You can't confuse it (bear) with anyone because of its height and power", he notes. Despite the male brown bear's enormous size, he was practically the same size as the male tiger "The Beast", which shows that huge male tigers and huge male brown bears are similar-sized animals.
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://hab.mk.ru/social/2021/07/23/fotolovushka-zafiksirovali-kak-tigr-chudovishhe-meryaetsya-rostom-so-svoim-sosedom-medvedem.html
https://www.dvnovosti.ru/khab/2021/07/22/131921/
Video (size comparisons) of the big male tiger "The Beast", and probably the largest male brown bear in the Anyuisky National Park:
The huge male brown bear is heavier, but the tiger is longer and bipedally taller: (Notice, the tiger "Beast" is stood further back from the tree, the bear is stood closer)
Here's a full frontal view of an adult male Amur tiger and an adult male Ussuri brown bear (unlike the ridiculous fan-made comparison photo above). The picture is taken next to the same tree, from the same distance and exact same angle. A fully accurate size comparison. You can see, the bear looks bulkier and heavier, but the tiger's head looks slightly larger. Both are similar in size:
*This image is copyright of its original author
An adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear walking the same forest path. Both are very similar in size:
*This image is copyright of its original author
A size comparison between an adult male Amur tiger and a huge male brown bear:
*This image is copyright of its original author
An adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear next to the same tree. This highlights the huge size of male Amur tigers compared to adult male Ussuri brown bears:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Adult male tiger and adult male brown bear marking the same tree in the Durminskoye forest. If the tiger stood closer to the tree like the bear is, the tiger would be taller:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Adult male tiger and adult male Ussuri brown bear next to the same tree:
*This image is copyright of its original author
In reality, the actual size difference between a large male Amur tiger and a large male Ussuri brown bear will look like this. The bear is a bit taller at the shoulders, fatter and heavier, while the tiger is longer, leaner, with a more athletic physique:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Size Difference and Anatomical Design of Tigers and Brown Bears
Amur tigers (150 - 320 kg) and one of the largest species of bears on earth - Ussuri brown bears (150 - 600 kg) are similar-sized predators, with the bear, on average, being heavier, more robust, and fatter, which suits its lifestyle as an omnivore, scavenger and forager. Whereas the tiger is longer, a bit taller (bipedally), and has a more muscular and athletic physique designed for speed, power, and agility, which suits its lifestyle as a true specialized apex predator.
Brown bears are not some giant monsters that dwarf big cats like tigers and lions, like many internet fanboys assume. As numerous camera trap photos and videos clearly show, tigers and brown bears are similar sized predators with just different weight ranges and different anatomical designs. One animal (brown bear) is built primarily for foraging/scavenging, and the other animal (tiger) is solely built to kill and eat other animals, and dominate the food-chain and ecosystem as the alpha apex predator.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Apex Titan - 10-22-2024
Ochkarik and Chlamyda - The Truth
Here's a recent video made and uploaded on YouTube by 'GalacticTiger' about the incident of the male tiger 'Ochkarik' who killed the huge male brown bear named 'Chlamyda' or 'Chlamys'.
It's a long video, but he posted all the articles/video (which I initially found & posted) and interviews of Batalov mentioning this case. Its a very detailed video.
A Detailed Analysis of this Incident
It's important to note that Alexander Batalov's conclusion was a result of deduction, based on clear tell-tale signs and strong circumstantial evidence, NOT assumptions.
There's a clear difference between 'deduction' and 'assumption'.
Who is Alexander Batalov?
Alexander Batalov is a renowned field biologist, conservationist, and game warden. He is one of the world's leading scientific authorities on tigers and bears in Far East Russia. Even Russian bear expert and hunter-biologist Mikhail Krechmar, said that Batalov is the largest bear specialist in the south of the Far East (Ussuri regions). Biologist Alexander Batalov has over 50 years of field experience studying the ecology and biology of wild Amur tigers and Himalayan & Ussuri brown bears in the taiga, particularly in the Khabarovsk Krai.
Batalov, along with Yuri Dunishenko, is arguably the greatest Amur tiger & bear expert of our time. Both men have far more field experience (over half a century) than Russian biologists like, say, Ivan Seryodkin. Batalov is a very seasoned biologist.
Throughout a large part of his career, Batalov caught, measured and weighed many brown bears. He also studied the contents of their stomachs, and measured many bear skulls, etc. Batalov has also published over 40 scientific studies on topics ranging from tiger behaviour and sustainable forestry. He currently works as the Director of the Durminskoye Forest Reserve and hunting enterprise.
Because of Alexander Batalov's vast amount of knowledge and experience, he even traveled to South Africa & Zambia to share his knowledge to the conservationists who are trying to protect and preserve the populations of elephants and rhinos.
Needless to say, Batalov is a very highly respected, experienced, and reputable expert/biologist, who has a great reputation on the line. Firm conclusions from such a major expert speaks volumes and has to be taken very seriously.
Deductions & Clear Tell-Tale Signs
Chlamyda was not an ordinary brown bear, he was a really enormous bear of immense proportions, most likely weighing between 400 - 500 kg. Batalov described this bear as "incredibly huge", hence his name "Chlamyda". For years, Batalov knew this bear intimately, as well as the tigress Rashel and her mate, the dominant male tiger and ruler of the area - Ochkarik.
After constant persecution (following her and stealing her kills) from the giant bear, Rashel had, had enough and complained to the father of her cubs, the male tiger Ochkarik. Batalov said that he had never heard Rashel growl in such a "special way" in the taiga. Very soon after, Ochkarik appeared on the scene and met the tigress, which was recorded on video.
After Ochkarik appeared in the area to meet the tigress Rashel, the huge male brown bear had suddenly vanished, never to be seen again. Batalov then saw camera trap photos of Ochkarik who looked very inflated (very gorged stomach), so gorged that Batalov was shocked. Batalov then found the remains of a brown bear (fur and meat) in Ochkarik's excrement's. He had killed and eaten a brown bear.
Now what do these signs indicate? Ochkarik appears to help the tigress Rashel, he kills and eats a 'brown bear', Batalov finds remains of a brown bear in Ochkarik's scats, he sees photos of Ochkarik heavily gorged on this 'brown bear' he was feeding on, and the giant bear Chlamyda just vanishes, never to be seen again. Coincidence or not?
Tigers Vengeful Nature
It's a well known and documented fact that tigers are very vengeful and vindictive beasts. There are numerous factual accounts of premeditated revenge attacks and killings by tigers. John Vaillant in his book "The Tiger" mentions another 8 additional cases of the Amur tiger's vengeful nature, which was investigated, confirmed and documented by forensic specialists. These 8 cases were in addition to the famous Vladimir Markov incident.
Colonel Kesri Singh also mentions a case in his book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" of a Bengal tiger that killed a hunter for interfering with its wild boar hunt. Alexander Batalov, as well as other Russian biologists and rangers also stated that tigers are vengeful animals with a capacity for premeditated revenge.
The brown bear 'Chlamyda' clearly violated Ochkarik's family, hence why he took revenge on the huge bear and killed, and ate him. Tigers destroy and eliminate their threats, they're hard-wired to do so.
Alexander Batalov said that tigers are clever, with a capacity for premeditated revenge:
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LUhhDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT35&dq=Tigers+are+clever,+with+a+capacity+for+premeditated+revenge&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvh8qJ18_nAhWKiVwKHWNIDh4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Tigers%20are%20clever%2C%20with%20a%20capacity%20for%20premeditated%20revenge&f=false
In a future post I'm making about the tigers vengeful and vindictive nature, I'll post plenty more evidence and factual accounts showing the vengeful nature of tigers.
Amur Tiger Predation on Bears
Its a well known fact, that male Amur tigers regularly hunt and eat both black and brown bears. Various biologists, zoologists, hunters, and naturalists have reported this. In the Khabarovsk region, bears make up 13% of the Amur tigers annual diet and are one of the main food sources of tigers, second to wild boar and red deer. There are many authentic accounts of tigers killing and eating large (including adult males) brown bears, the most recent case happened in 2022, in the same region this incident of Ochkarik killing Chlamyda took place.
Ochkarik was a 'bear-killer' tiger, who regularly hunted bears. In winter, he even made a habit of climbing trees and pulling black bears out of hollows. So he was an experienced bear-killer. Combine his adept bear killing skills and experience with his dominant status, confidence, attitude and vengeful nature, you can then see why he decided to vanquish the huge male brown bear.
Chlamyda's Disappearance (8 years later)
Now, 8 years later, the giant male brown bear has not been seen anywhere in the Khabarovsk region. Not by Batalov, not by rangers, not by hunters, not by anyone!
Batalov puts up a lot of camera traps throughout the Durminskoye Forest Reserve to study and track tigers, and still, 8 years later, there's still no signs or trace at all of this huge brown bear anywhere. Chlamyda wasn't even seen in any of the neighboring reserves like Khekhtsir. Nowhere!
Alexander Batalov roams the taiga every day of his life. He lives in the Durminskoye forest among tigers and bears, and for many years, he puts up many camera traps. So 8 years later, not a single camera trap has captured any picture of Chlamyda, nor has Batalov seen any of his tracks, nothing!
For argument's sake, if Ochkarik never killed and ate this giant bear, then how can a exceptionally large male brown bear, likely weighing 400 - 500 kg, that was described to have "maniacal perseverance" and a aggressive nature, and used to stealing food from other predators, just vanish into thin air, never to be seen again, even 8 years later?? Makes no sense!
Or was the huge bear so terrified of Ochkarik, that he decided to immediately flee from the entire Khabarovsk region?
Were Hunters Responsible for the Huge Brown Bear's Disappearance?
Of course, for obvious reasons (preference, fanaticism & agenda) the bear fans will dismiss and reject Batalov's conclusion, even though he's the expert authority who studied and tracked the tiger Ochkarik, tigress Rashel, and brown bear Chlamyda for many years in the Durmin forest.
Bear fans claim (speculate) that the huge brown bear probably left the forest because of "hunters". Well, lets break down this opinion/argument and see how highly unlikely it is:
Alexander Batalov is the director of the Durminskoye forest hunting enterprise. Meaning he (Batalov) works and regularly talks with the local hunters in the Durmin Reserve. If there really was a possibility that the giant bear fled the area because of the hunters, Batalov would have surely considered that possibility. But why didn't he at all??
Also, those licensed hunters never told Batalov that "Chlamyda" fled because of them. NO ranger, biologist, or hunter told Batalov this. And Batalov himself never considered this a possible cause. Which indicates that this is a weak argument and highly unlikely scenario because a major scientific authority and specialist such as Alexander Batalov didn't even consider it. That says something.
Add to this, Batalov never saw ANY signs, indications or circumstantial evidence that suggested that 'Chlamyda' fled the area because of the hunters. In fact, Batalov saw clear tell-tale signs and strong circumstantial evidence that strongly suggested that the huge bear was killed and devoured by the male tiger 'Ochkarik'.
I have no reason to doubt the firm conclusion of a leading expert and one of Russia's most highly reputable, experienced and respected scientific authorities on tigers and bears.
Alexander Batalov's Conclusion & Risk of his Reputation (Addressing the Critics)
Biologist Alexander Batalov had very good reasons, based on clear tell-tale signs and strong circumstantial evidence, that made him definitively conclude that the tiger Ochkarik killed and completely consumed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamyda'. This is why for several years now, Batalov has been very adamant and certain that this is indeed the case. Hence why he's told this incident to 3-4 different Russian journalists and a live TV news presenter.
Batalov also confirmed this case first-hand via email, which I posted in this thread. So we also have first-hand confirmation from Batalov himself:
Dear Dr. Alexander Batalov:
You said that you judged that a huge brown bear disappeared because the tiger Ochkarik killed it. Because the brown bear often bullies his girlfriend and steals her food. In addition, you also found that Ochkarik's stomach became bigger and there was brown bear meat in his feces. I want to make sure it's true? thank you!
Alexander Batalov:
Yes, it's true. Unfortunately Ochkarik is gone, but other tigers have appeared..."
Email:
https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/60400/202306/177_8e25546fef7ed093971e8e13148ff17c_t.jpg
This is exactly why Batalov reported this incident 3 years after (2020) Chlamyda's disappearance, because he probably wanted to make sure that the huge brown bear was definitely gone and never gonna return. Such a major expert authority and biologist like Alexander Batalov would never come to a firm conclusion based on 'weak evidence' and vague signs. He clearly saw blatant indications which clearly suggested that Ochkarik killed and ate the giant brown bear.
Think about it, Chlamyda was not an average bear, he was an incredibly huge male, and well known among the hunters, rangers, and Batalov in that forest. If Chlamyda was never killed by Ochkarik and returned back to the forest some time later, then Batalov's credibility would have been ruined. It would have destroyed his reputation because he would have repeatedly "lied" or spread "misinformation" to several journalists and a TV news reporter on live television. It's a huge risk of his reputation. So he had to be very certain and seen evidence to support his conclusion.
The fact that the huge brown bear completely vanished around the same time when Ochkarik had killed and eaten a 'brown bear', and Batalov finding the remains of a brown bear in Ochkarik's excrements, clearly suggests that this particular brown bear 'Chlamyda' was slaughtered and devoured by Ochkarik, hence why he's still nowhere to be seen after all these years.
Now, 8 years later, still no signs or trace of Chlamyda in the entire Khabarovsk region. That says it all.
And lastly, in a very recent article (published January 2, 2024) 'Khabarovsk game warden creates a taiga chronicle' of an interview with biologist Alexander Batalov, Batalov once again told the journalist that Ochkarik killed and devoured the huge bear 'Chlamyda' or 'Chlamys' :
"A huge robber bear named Chlamys really hindered her in this. If Rachel gets an animal for her kittens, he will come and brazenly take the prey. Then the tigress began to growl in a special way - she called for help from the father of her cubs, a tiger named Ochkarik. He came to the rescue and dealt harshly with the offender - he simply devoured him. After all, Ochkarik is a seasoned male."
*This image is copyright of its original author
https://todaykhv.ru/news/in-areas-of-the-province/71709/
https://habarovsk.bezformata.com/listnews/habarovskiy-ohotoved-sozdayot-tayozhnuyu/127201098/
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - peter - 10-24-2024
APEX
Yet another series of interesting posts! Much appreciated. As a result of circumstances, I was unable to respond directly after you posted. In this post, however, I'll make up for it. That is to say, to a degree. I'll start from the bottom up, meaning I'll discuss your last contribution first. Before I do, a few words about the best way to present a story or theory wouldn't be entirely out of place.
ABOUT PRESENTING A STORY
I saw the video you used in your last post some time ago. The decision to watch it, however, wasn't based on the presentation. I read the articles used for the video some time ago and concluded the one involved had done his homework. Meaning he was well-informed. The moment I started the video, however, it took quite an effort to get past the first ten seconds. The reason is the voice guiding you through the video. Artificial Intelligence no doubt will conquer the world, but there's still a lot to be desired meaning it's not a good idea to present an interesting story in this way. My guess is not a few of those potentially interested left well before the end, because they don't take a story presented by a voice created by artificial intelligence serious. They have a point, because there usually is a connection between a story and the way it's presented.
Same, to a degree, for not a few of your posts. I'm not referring to the info and the conclusions (very interesting), but to the way you present a point. When you post, I quickly go over the complete post. It's an old habit enabling me to get to an opinion in a few seconds.
What do I see when I quickly go over a post you wrote? The answer is it compares to an article in a newspaper most want to avoid at all costs. The reason is these articles are written by someone who think he needs a lot of extras to attract attention. The most striking features are the strange spaces between sentences and paragraphes (a), the words used to underline a point (b) and the number of capitals used ©. Meaning the method you use fits those intending to tackle you like a glove. They they won't take your post serious and you know. In order to silence them, you add more capitals. Meaning your posts say they're intended for those who will dismiss them out of hand no matter what.
Is this what you really want? The content says no. When reading your posts, an experienced reader will quickly conclude they've many ingredients typical for good articles. I'm referring to way you construct the post, the number of references and the conclusions. Most unfortunately, the way you present your point suggests you don't trust readers one bit. The result is an overload of capitals, colours and repetitions. Meaning you're more or less destroying you post.
My advice is to trust those interested in your contributions. There are many. Every time you post, the number of views sharply increases. Only very few readers respond, but that's largely a result of the way this section is moderated. The number of views says most readers are way more capable than you think. They don't need repetitions and all the rest of it. They're interested in good info and that's exactly what you deliver. This is the reason you got the opportunity to post in this thread. Use it, accept every article will result in encouraging and negative responses and move on.
Continue as you did, but focus on good info. Select a title that covers the post, start with an introduction, present your points in different paragraphs and finish with a conclusion. If you feel like it, add a paragraph in which you reject or confirm your hypothesis. Remember it's up to the reader in the end.
ABOUT THOSE WHO WORK WITH CAPTIVE BIG CATS
In one of the first posts of your series, you, regarding interactions between captive big cats and bears, referred to a post in which I discussed the difference between the general public and those who know a few things about fysical confrontations between humans. You suggested there would be a difference between them and the general public and also assumed professionals would favour captive big cats over captive (brown) bears.
The answer is there is a difference between professionals and others. The main reason is professionals have more tools to get to an opinion. With 'tools', I'm referring to knowledge and, in particular, experience. They know about the effect of speed, strength and character in a fight. Although they're able to weigh these factors, most of them didn't get to a clear conclusion. They did, however, agree 'strength' in general is a bit overestimated. According to most of those I talked to, the outcome of a fight is determined by the number of opportunities to get to an advantage. That and the ability to use these in the most effective way. Professional hunters (big cats) are more experienced killers, whereas bears (not referring to polar bears) are not. Meaning they usually need more opportunities. A few examples.
Clyde Beatty, in one of his books, discussed an incident between his Russian brown bear 'Bill' and Amur tigress 'Lil'. The bear got a great opportunity to settle an affair when 'Lil' suddenly fell in front of him. He got hold of her neck and was able to kill her. Beatty was surprised, because bears often bite and let go. Other trainers I interviewed told me bears are critters, not experienced biters. Big cats, on the other hand, are. They try to find a vulnarable spot and hold on. If the neck of a bear is too big, they move to another spot. When a big cat bites, the result, more often than not, is significant damage. Captive brown bears, according to those I interviewed, do not seem to have a consistent method to overcome their opponent. More often than not, they rely on their size. When they bite, they target different spots. When they found a suitable spot, they often shake their opponent. In this respect, they compare to canids.
I posted some parts of the interview with Tony Hughes in the days I was a member of the former AVA. Another trainer I interviewed was Gary Ambrose. Born in Malta, he wanted to be a trainer from day one. He worked with polar bears, Kodiak bears, brown bears, black bears, hyenas's (!), puma's, jaguars, leopards, lions and tigers. He knew about mixed acts, but preferred to work with tigers and, in particular, lions. When I interviewed him in the summer of 2001, he had a tiger act. The first day, we talked about his act and the tigers he used. On the second, we focused on mixed acts and the exchanges he witnessed.
In his experience, brown bears are very intelligent. Polar bears are " ... sly, cunning and more dangerous than brown bears ... ". Jaguars do not quite compare in the department of intelligence, but they are dangerous. Lionesses are easygoing, but males are not, especially in the period females are in heat. Tigers are more intelligent and less dangerous. In the mixed acts he had, problems were not uncommon. Male brown bears " ... like the fight and go for the kill ... ". In spite of that, they not seldom ended second best. The reason was they overestimated their abilities. Male lions fight for position. Male tigers fight animals " ... they don't like ... ". Fights between male tigers often are 'ritualized'. Male lions immediately go for it with everything they have and often injure each other. Ambrose thought male lions stood the best chance in any fight.
Erich 'Klant' Hagenbeck (director of a training facility), however, had a different opinion. Same for Daniel Rafo and Tony Hughes. When you read books written by trainers, you'll often conclude opinions differ. The word I most often heard about male brown bears is 'tough', but Ambrose wasn't the only one who thought they tend to overestimate their ability in a fight. In the end, as Tony Hughes stated, there's no such thing as species-related ability. It depends on the individual, character and coincidence. My guess is most trainers I interviewed would have agreed.
All this, mind you, relates to captive bears and big cats. Their wild relatives are very different. This is especially true for solitary hunters like tigers. Adult male Amur tigers, as John Vaillant said in his great book, really are survivors. When they disperse, young Amur tigers need years to learn and develop. Also remember Amur tigers are the only tiger subspecies facing competition from (brown) bears. Every wild Amur tiger that reached adulthood graduated in the bear department. This is not the case in other regions.
Aramilev, in the video I recently posted, explained why Amur tigers have the best chance in a fight with a brown bear. My guess is most readers struggle with his conclusions, because an average adult male Ussuri brown bear has a significant weight advantage. I asked the professionals I referred to above if they would be able to explain the difference between (brown) bears and big cats to the general public. Most of them thought it would be an uphill struggle, because most people are unable to understand the effect of training (experience) and specialisation. It's, on the other hand, easy to explain the difference between a bodybuilder and a non-athlete of similar length, because the difference between them is easy to see. Meaning it's about what you see for most.
Does all this mean an adult wild male Ussuri brown bear is at a disadvantage in a fight against an adult wild male Amur tiger? The answer is opinions differ. I'm not only referring to the professionals I mentioned, but also to experienced Russian hunter-biologists (referring to contradicting information). The professionals I referred to concluded it's likely an Amur tiger, as a result of training, will get more opportunities to use his teeth first. This means his opponent, for the reasons Aramilev explained in the video, has a problem.
ABOUT 'OCHKARIK', 'RASHEL', 'CHLAMYDA' AND BATALOV
We could start yet another discussion or decide to call it a day. It's a fact the big male brown bear ('Chlamyda') that robbed tigress 'Rashel' for a prolonged period of time in 2017 disappeared almost directly after 'Rashel' and the father of her cubs ('Ochkarik') met (referring to her 'complaint' and the video showing their meeting) to discuss the situation. When I saw the video, I said the male, in my opinion (of course), was trying to reassure 'Rashel'. Three years later, a very experienced man who knew the bear, the tigress and the tiger very well ('Batalov) concluded the big bear was killed and eaten by male tiger 'Ochkarik'. Those who disagree have a point in that there, apart from a few heels, was no body. Those who think Batalov's deductions were correct have no option but to underline his experience and status. And that's about it.
One more remark to close the post. According to Batalov, male tiger 'Ochkarik' was 160-180 kg. Batalov knows about Ussuri brown bears, Himalayan black bears, Amur tigers and weights. To say he's experienced would be an understatement. Was he close?
The video I recently posted shows 'Ochkarik' and two hikers. It's very difficult to get an estimate, but it is clear 'Ochkarik' was tall and quite robust. I also saw the video of him climbing a tree some years ago. He was quite a beast back then.
How get to an estimate of 'Ochkarik' in his prime?
I measured 3 adult (8-year old) captive Amur tigers in a Dutch facility in 1996. They ranged between 279 (about 9.2) and 298 cm (about 9.9) in total length measured in a straight line. Only one of them was weighed. Tiger 'Arames', the longest, was 184,5 kg. One has, however, to remember he was both quite slender and had been severely neglected for about 7 weeks after their trainer had been killed during a show. Did the neglect have an effect? Most certainly. This is a photograph of tiger 'Arames' on the day the tigers arrived in the facility in the Netherlands. I'm not saying he was thin as a rail, but he was quite close:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The photograph didn't say it was 'Arames', but it was him. He had recovered to a degree when I measured him. Although quite thin (184,5 kg or 407 pounds), he would have been closer to 190-200 kg (420-442 pounds) in good shape. One of the other males, 'Amur', weighed at Schiphol Airport a few years later, was 211 kg. Although shorter, that male was more muscular (fore-arm circumference 56 cm). His brother 'Igor' compared.
I've seen many captive Amur tigers over the years. The three males I measured in 1996 were a bit shorter than average. In weight, they also lacked quite a bit compared to an average adult male. Although this was typical for many circus tigers, I've also seen quite a few approaching, if not exceeding, 250 kg (552 pounds) in good condition (referring to captive adult Amur tigers only). The largest I saw were the 3 brothers in the act of Daniel Rafo (Argentina). I interviewed him quite some time ago in Amsterdam, when he was hired by circus 'Renz'. Their father was a 'true' (you never know in circus tigers) Sumatran (...) and their mother was an Amur tigress. It was love at first sight, he told me. Dad must have been quite a tiger, as he was able to compete with 'true' Indian and Amur tigers. The males they produced were of average length, but very robust. At 13, they were still growing, Rafo told me.
How does 'Arames', photographed in a period the 7 Amur tigers had been severely neglected for a prolonged period of time, compare to 'Ochkarik' in the two videos that were posted? I'll leave that one to our readers, but I can confirm those visiting the rescue facility often underestimated the weight of adult tigers. In adult lions and bears, it often is the other way round. The reason is both bears and lions are relatively tall. They also have long and robust heads and relatively short, compact, bodies. Add the mane and a bit of character and you found your answer.
Last but not least is wild Amur tigers not seldom face challenging conditions and they do seem to have an effect. Example. In the days they were still captured, one well-known adult (referring to the male with a preference for bears) ranged between 350-452 pounds (actual weight). He was 350 pounds just after he had consumed a complete roedeer, meaning he would have been closer to 320-330 pounds (145-149 kg) on an empty stomach. A year later, he was 452 pounds (205 kg). Based on what I saw and read, my guess is most adult wild male Amur tigers, depending on their age and the conditions, range between 140-220 kg (up to 270 in northeastern China). Russian tiger biologists know. This, I think, is why they often say an average healthy adult wild male Amur tiger is about 180 kg.
All this, of course, is without the experienced biologist (referring to a post of 'Apex' not so long ago - this thread) who said wild male Amur tigers (referring to young adults and adults) average 220-240 kg (up to 280 kg). The heaviest he saw, a young adult, might have topped that mark. Most unfortunately, he didn't have time to measure and weigh this male.
I really don't know what to make of this information (referring to the remarkable range in weight of wild Amur tigers), but I do know Baikov wrote he shot males well exceeding 300 kg (661 pounds) over a century ago and he wasn't the only one who shot exceptional individuals. Not a few posters have a lot of doubt about this information, but it is a fact captive (non-obese) adult male Amur tigers can get to at least 320 kg (707 pounds). Furthermore, it's known wild adult tigers often are heavier than their captive relatives (referring to reliable information about the weight of wild tigers shot in India, southeast Asia, central parts of China and Sumatra). The information I have strongly suggests tigers show a lot of individual variation (referring to weight in particular) in regions when the population is large (at least 500 adults) and thriving. Conditions in the Russian Far East and northeastern China have improved significantly in both regions in the last decades, meaning nothing can be concluded.
Posters often discuss size, but what I saw suggests big cats don't need a lot of mass to impress visitors. I watched tigers interact with other big cats and bears in different facilities not open to the public and heard a lot more from keepers, directors and vets. I can confirm tigers really are very capable and fearsome predators. The professionals I referred to (see above) agreed, but not because they had access to good information (they didn't). The reason they agreed is they 'sensed' tigers really are apex predators.