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+----- Thread: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage (/topic-avoca-male-lions-and-their-male-lineage)
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RE: Avoca male lions - Mapokser - 08-29-2023
The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out.
His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.
RE: Avoca male lions - KM600 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 04:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out.
His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.
Would depend on where he tried to rule, you have to remember the Southern Avocas are the most battle tested coalition in Sabi Sands. Majority of coalitions in SS only consist of two members, so as long as he found a good partner, I really wouldn’t bet against him becoming a dominant, pride male yet again. Also you’re on about the Northern Avoca male, Mohawk, the lion we’re talking about is his brother from a different coalition who resides in the Southern part of Sabi Sands.
RE: Avoca male lions - Mapokser - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 05:00 AM)KM600 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 04:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out.
His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.
Would depend on where he tried to rule, you have to remember the Southern Avocas are the most battle tested coalition in Sabi Sands. Majority of coalitions in SS only consist of two members, so as long as he found a good partner, I really wouldn’t bet against him becoming a dominant, pride male yet again. Also you’re on about the Northern Avoca male, Mohawk, the lion we’re talking about is his brother from a different coalition who resides in the Southern part of Sabi Sands.
I said nothing about Mohawk, I was talking about his southern brother.
S.Avocas the most battle tested coalition in SS? Maybe, but regardless, I always considered them one of the strongest duos. But the remaining male is apparently alone now, and even if he finds a partner quickly, it'll take time for them to bond, adapt and find a territory to potentially try to take over, until this happens, Avoca will have turned 11 already and it's doubtful if they'd be a strong coalition.
Keep in mind that S.Avocas, when they were still 2, soon after going nomadic, were seen mating with the Hamilton females and marking the territory ( which was something the 2 Leeubrons were also doing a month earlier ) and now apparently Leeubrons have established themselves there while Avocas are still nomadic and probably down to 1. So chances are the older Leeubrons outcompeted the younger S. Avocas ( even if they aren't responsible for whatever happened to the bigger Avoca ).
If the other Avoca would show up and join his brother and they'd still show a drive to be dominant, then they'd have decent chances, but if the remaining male is indeed alone, his only chance would be joining a big coalition.
RE: Avoca male lions - KM600 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 08:48 AM)Mapokser Wrote:Misinterpreted the comment after u said he tried being dominant with his brother but it didn’t work out, believing u were on about DM and Mohawks last reunion before tragedy struck. Even while the Southern Avocas went after the Hamilton pride, they were still dominant males over the Sand River Pride albeit they weren’t there to protect them from the Nkhulu males. That’s only changed since the lone Avoca male was spotted in Mala Mala by himself and without his pride. Even now, I’d argue he could still be considered a pride male at worst until there’s proof he’s been ousted from his pride. I think there was a lot of talk in regards to the Southern Avocas ‘abondoning’ the Sand River Pride but these brothers spend a lot of time in KNP, big reason we lack info on them as opposed to every other coalition in Sabi Sands. I think if it wasn’t for the Nkhulu males presence, ppl wouldn’t think anything of it. Ppl also believed DM abandoned the Talamati pride when he was facing pressure from S8, when I believe in reality, he was struggling too much to keep up with the pride. I just feel as if the word ‘abandoned’ can be misused.(08-29-2023, 05:00 AM)KM600 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 04:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out.
His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.
Would depend on where he tried to rule, you have to remember the Southern Avocas are the most battle tested coalition in Sabi Sands. Majority of coalitions in SS only consist of two members, so as long as he found a good partner, I really wouldn’t bet against him becoming a dominant, pride male yet again. Also you’re on about the Northern Avoca male, Mohawk, the lion we’re talking about is his brother from a different coalition who resides in the Southern part of Sabi Sands.
I said nothing about Mohawk, I was talking about his southern brother.
S.Avocas the most battle tested coalition in SS? Maybe, but regardless, I always considered them one of the strongest duos. But the remaining male is apparently alone now, and even if he finds a partner quickly, it'll take time for them to bond, adapt and find a territory to potentially try to take over, until this happens, Avoca will have turned 11 already and it's doubtful if they'd be a strong coalition.
Keep in mind that S.Avocas, when they were still 2, soon after going nomadic, were seen mating with the Hamilton females and marking the territory ( which was something the 2 Leeubrons were also doing a month earlier ) and now apparently Leeubrons have established themselves there while Avocas are still nomadic and probably down to 1. So chances are the older Leeubrons outcompeted the younger S. Avocas ( even if they aren't responsible for whatever happened to the bigger Avoca ).
If the other Avoca would show up and join his brother and they'd still show a drive to be dominant, then they'd have decent chances, but if the remaining male is indeed alone, his only chance would be joining a big coalition.
RE: Avoca male lions - Zigzag - 08-29-2023
I think this is same like skorro males abandoned mayambulas after continuous pressure from vuyelas or bbreakway males. Mouling one of a bigger coalition sometimes force them to go for the one who did this to their brother/partner. That might happened with s avocas and then they gone deeper in Kruger for safer zone.
RE: Avoca male lions - Horizon - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 01:36 AM)BA0701 Wrote: I don't believe that the Kambula females did that to him.
Thought so too. His slight limp in the rear and the wound in the back could be due to an attack by male lions. If its females, he would likely scatter them and have the meal for himself. S.Avocas losing the territory is a big surprise. Even four fully grown Ndzhengas couldn't displace them.
RE: Avoca male lions - Robot00 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 02:10 PM)Horizon Wrote:Yah but that was when they were 2-3yrs younger in their prime so they felt good about holding it down vs 4 boys. Now they're out of their prime vs 6-7 boys (1 man). It was a tough uphill battle and they did well initially but they knew sooner or later that huge coalition will annihilate them given time.(08-29-2023, 01:36 AM)BA0701 Wrote: I don't believe that the Kambula females did that to him.
Thought so too. His slight limp in the rear and the wound in the back could be due to an attack by male lions. If its females, he would likely scatter them and have the meal for himself. S.Avocas losing the territory is a big surprise. Even four fully grown Ndzhengas couldn't displace them.
RE: Avoca male lions - Horizon - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 02:25 PM)Robot00 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 02:10 PM)Horizon Wrote:Yah but that was when they were 2-3yrs younger in their prime so they felt good about holding it down vs 4 boys. Now they're out of their prime vs 6-7 boys (1 man). It was a tough uphill battle and they did well initially but they knew sooner or later that huge coalition will annihilate them given time.(08-29-2023, 01:36 AM)BA0701 Wrote: I don't believe that the Kambula females did that to him.
Thought so too. His slight limp in the rear and the wound in the back could be due to an attack by male lions. If its females, he would likely scatter them and have the meal for himself. S.Avocas losing the territory is a big surprise. Even four fully grown Ndzhengas couldn't displace them.
Yes, I know they are slightly over the hill. Nkuhlus should run down any two lion coalitions now. That isn’t a surprise. Surprise is to see S.Avoca coalition’ s long reign ending.
RE: Avoca male lions - 1999gc8 - 08-29-2023
A short clip of Mohawk and two of his sons taking down a buffalo and his two other sons joined them later.
Apparently the Ndhzenga males chased all five of them away and stole the kill
RE: Avoca male lions - KM600 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 07:10 PM)1999gc8 Wrote: A short clip of Mohawk and two of his sons taking down a buffalo and his two other sons joined them later.
Apparently the Ndhzenga males chased all five of them away and stole the kill
Don’t like seeing Mohawk like this, wasn’t that long ago he was going into the BBoys territory back when there was two them, solo. Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
RE: Avoca male lions - BA0701 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 07:10 PM)1999gc8 Wrote: A short clip of Mohawk and two of his sons taking down a buffalo and his two other sons joined them later.
Apparently the Ndhzenga males chased all five of them away and stole the kill
Don’t like seeing Mohawk like this, wasn’t that long ago he was going into the BBoys territory back when there was two them, solo. Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
It was right around the same time that the N'was chased him back north too, he may not know they are only two now. Back then, which as you mentioned wasn't so long ago, Blondie was going in alone as well, he even killed some Kambula cubs on one of those excursions. They were both exuding so much confidence, as they knew they had each other. We've all been there, knowing your brother stands beside you can often make the difference, regardless of the odds. I don't think it would take much for Mohawk to regain his confidence, he just needs to see his sons ready to take a stand with him, and as we see, currently he knows they are going to run, even if he were to take a stand he'd e doing so alone. Mohawk still has the same heart he's always had, he just isn't suicidal. I think Mohawk can still have a lot of time left, maybe even become dominant again, it's the sons who seem to remain skeptical. None of the Avocas have ever lacked in confidence, even DM, who I think he only knew his own limitations after his injury, confidence seems part of their DNA.
I was actually going to comment how these young males are getting some incredibly valuable training right now, training they would have had to learn on their own had the cards played out in typical fashion. That kind of live and learn, on the job training, can often have dire consequences.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 08-29-2023
(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
Big, but not old enough.
For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.
Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.
NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.
RE: Avoca male lions - BA0701 - 08-30-2023
(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
Big, but not old enough.
For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.
Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.
NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.
I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.
RE: Avoca male lions - afortich - 08-30-2023
(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
Big, but not old enough.
For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.
Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.
NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.
I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.
I agree with you my friend @BA0701, something similar to what happened with his bro DM
RE: Avoca male lions - Tylermartin! - 08-30-2023
(08-30-2023, 01:04 AM)afortich Wrote:(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.
Big, but not old enough.
For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.
Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.
NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.
I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.
I agree with you my friend @BA0701, something similar to what happened with his bro DM
Mohawk with his two biggest sons just got chased by the nwaswitshaka males