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+---- Thread: Big cat and Bear tale (/topic-big-cat-and-bear-tale)
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-08-2018
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/10/151025-natural-history-siberian-tiger-siberia-poaching-russian-mafia-ngbooktalk/
The Ussuri have two totems. One is the tiger, the other is the bear. Long ago, people who lived in northern Siberia worshiped the bear or the wolf, since at that time in northern Siberia there were no tigers. Bears and wolves were the strongest animals they had seen, and thus made the most obvious totems for worship. But when the Ussuri achieved dominance, they worshiped the tiger. Nowadays, two shamans perform a mask ceremony. One shaman dresses as a tiger, the other dresses as a bear, and they pretend to fight.
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Scorpion - 11-08-2018
@
This is "Genghis" on another account. First off, I'd like to say that I agree with "Shadow" that this is old news debated over and over again. However, you two are missing one point here. This is not about who will win more often in a hypothetical fight between a male tiger vs a male brown bear, its about overall, which beast dominates and rules the Ussuri taiga.
Ussuri brown bears are preyed upon by tigers, not the other way around. Bears generally have an innate fear of tigers, whereas tigers generally fear nothing in the forest.
Also, renowned Amur tiger biologist, Linda Kerley stated in her email; that tigers do hunt and kill LARGER Brown bears and also prey on the largest and healthiest of adult sow Brown bears. The largest sow Ussuri brown bears can reach well over 230kgs. This was based off just her 14 years experience of studying tiger food habits in the Russian Far-East.
An example:
In 45 cases of head-on collisions between tigers and brown bears, 51% of collisions ended with a dead bear, and only 26% of collisions ended with a dead tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I found another account, which has never been posted by anyone ever before on any forum! Its an account of a tiger that challenged a large brown bear for his wild boar kill, and killed the bear after a fierce fight:
"We heard one story about how a "large brown bear" having taken on a wild boar and covered it with scat and brushwood to make some "stewed boar, bear style," suddenly got paid a visit by a hungry tiger. Oh how much blood got shed! The owner of the kill died from terrible wounds and the disfigured tiger, moving off like a drunk, didn't even bother with the fresh spoils of the kill." (Page 23)
http://www.wf.ru/tiger/book/The%20Amur%20Tiger.pdf
The bear was described as "large" in size, so I'm assuming it was a large male brown bear. Since large brown bears are usually referred to males.
Here's a video in Russian, I found on youtube. From Russian biologist; Timofei Bazhenov, who states: " I am often asked, if a tiger meets the brown bear in the taiga, who will win then? As a rule, the tiger wins but it occurs a brown bear may win if it is big."
Wildlife naturalist and explorer, Paul Rosolien;
"They were the ruling terrestrial predator of our planet. They are the genetic pinnacle of millions of years of evolution - the ultimate predator. From the steaming jungles of Sumatra to the snowy wilderness of the Russian far east, they are the apex predator - the latter of this species, the Amur tiger, even dominates the brown bears and wolves that share their range."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ykiGAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=tiger+predation+on+brown+bear+new+accounts&source
I can show more sources, but I don't wanna make the post too long. My point being is that, even though the Ussuri brown bear is a large and powerful animal, it is still regularly hunted, killed and eaten by tigers. The tiger is the ruling apex predator of the Ussuri taiga, and locals, biologists and natives regard them as so.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Olga.bohai - 11-09-2018
(11-08-2018, 12:33 AM)brotherbear Wrote: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015...gbooktalk/This is a very interesting movie about that Korean guy and his Siberian tiger watching adventures
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - sanjay - 11-09-2018
Hello @Olga.bohai, Welcome to the forum,
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RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-09-2018
(11-09-2018, 05:35 AM)Olga.bohai Wrote:(11-08-2018, 12:33 AM)brotherbear Wrote: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015...gbooktalk/This is a very interesting movie about that Korean guy and his Siberian tiger watching adventures https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4NKJJcVk1s . Sorry if it was already on the forum.
I also read his book, "The Great Soul of Siberia". The Korean naturalist was impressively dedicated to his work. The two most astonishing things I learned from his book was how rare and elusive the Amur tiger is and how the father tiger is interested in his children and will spend time with them. So unlike the bear. Great book. I will check out the movie.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-09-2018
Scorpion says: the Amur tiger, even dominates the brown bears and wolves that share their range."
The mature male tiger and the mature male brown bear co-exist. Neither is "dominated".
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Shadow - 11-09-2018
(11-08-2018, 07:32 PM)Scorpion Wrote: @So another one here with all that old information and same reasoning heard so many times. Well, can´t blame you guys for lack of determination at least :) I have nothing more to say to you, have a nice day there!brotherbearand @Shadow
This is "Genghis" on another account. First off, I'd like to say that I agree with "Shadow" that this is old news debated over and over again. However, you two are missing one point here. This is not about who will win more often in a hypothetical fight between a male tiger vs a male brown bear, its about overall, which beast dominates and rules the Ussuri taiga.
Ussuri brown bears are preyed upon by tigers, not the other way around. Bears generally have an innate fear of tigers, whereas tigers generally fear nothing in the forest.
Also, renowned Amur tiger biologist, Linda Kerley stated in her email; that tigers do hunt and kill LARGER Brown bears and also prey on the largest and healthiest of adult sow Brown bears. The largest sow Ussuri brown bears can reach well over 230kgs. This was based off just her 14 years experience of studying tiger food habits in the Russian Far-East.
An example:
In 45 cases of head-on collisions between tigers and brown bears, 51% of collisions ended with a dead bear, and only 26% of collisions ended with a dead tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I found another account, which has never been posted by anyone ever before on any forum! Its an account of a tiger that challenged a large brown bear for his wild boar kill, and killed the bear after a fierce fight:
"We heard one story about how a "large brown bear" having taken on a wild boar and covered it with scat and brushwood to make some "stewed boar, bear style," suddenly got paid a visit by a hungry tiger. Oh how much blood got shed! The owner of the kill died from terrible wounds and the disfigured tiger, moving off like a drunk, didn't even bother with the fresh spoils of the kill." (Page 23)
http://www.wf.ru/tiger/book/The%20Amur%20Tiger.pdf
The bear was described as "large" in size, so I'm assuming it was a large male brown bear. Since large brown bears are usually referred to males.
Here's a video in Russian, I found on youtube. From Russian biologist; Timofei Bazhenov, who states: " I am often asked, if a tiger meets the brown bear in the taiga, who will win then? As a rule, the tiger wins but it occurs a brown bear may win if it is big."
Wildlife naturalist and explorer, Paul Rosolien;
"They were the ruling terrestrial predator of our planet. They are the genetic pinnacle of millions of years of evolution - the ultimate predator. From the steaming jungles of Sumatra to the snowy wilderness of the Russian far east, they are the apex predator - the latter of this species, the Amur tiger, even dominates the brown bears and wolves that share their range."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ykiGAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=tiger+predation+on+brown+bear+new+accounts&source
I can show more sources, but I don't wanna make the post too long. My point being is that, even though the Ussuri brown bear is a large and powerful animal, it is still regularly hunted, killed and eaten by tigers. The tiger is the ruling apex predator of the Ussuri taiga, and locals, biologists and natives regard them as so.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-09-2018
Question for those in the know: If there were a healthy population of tigers in the Russian taiga; a natural population ( meaning few if any humans ), what impact might this have on the bear population; both black and brown?
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-09-2018
I have no desire to react to spam.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Rishi - 11-09-2018
(11-08-2018, 07:32 PM)Scorpion Wrote: @brotherbearand @Shadow
This is "Genghis" on another account. First off, I'd like to say that I agree with "Shadow" that this is old news debated over and over again. However, you two are missing one point here. This is not about who will win more often in a hypothetical fight between a male tiger vs a male brown bear, its about overall, which beast dominates and rules the Ussuri taiga.
Ussuri brown bears are preyed upon by tigers, not the other way around. Bears generally have an innate fear of tigers, whereas tigers generally fear nothing in the forest.
Also, renowned Amur tiger biologist, Linda Kerley stated in her email; that tigers do hunt and kill LARGER Brown bears and also prey on the largest and healthiest of adult sow Brown bears. The largest sow Ussuri brown bears can reach well over 230kgs. This was based off just her 14 years experience of studying tiger food habits in the Russian Far-East.
An example:
In 45 cases of head-on collisions between tigers and brown bears, 51% of collisions ended with a dead bear, and only 26% of collisions ended with a dead tiger:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I found another account, which has never been posted by anyone ever before on any forum! Its an account of a tiger that challenged a large brown bear for his wild boar kill, and killed the bear after a fierce fight:
"We heard one story about how a "large brown bear" having taken on a wild boar and covered it with scat and brushwood to make some "stewed boar, bear style," suddenly got paid a visit by a hungry tiger. Oh how much blood got shed! The owner of the kill died from terrible wounds and the disfigured tiger, moving off like a drunk, didn't even bother with the fresh spoils of the kill." (Page 23)
http://www.wf.ru/tiger/book/The%20Amur%20Tiger.pdf
The bear was described as "large" in size, so I'm assuming it was a large male brown bear. Since large brown bears are usually referred to males.
Here's a video in Russian, I found on youtube. From Russian biologist; Timofei Bazhenov, who states: " I am often asked, if a tiger meets the brown bear in the taiga, who will win then? As a rule, the tiger wins but it occurs a brown bear may win if it is big."
Wildlife naturalist and explorer, Paul Rosolien;
"They were the ruling terrestrial predator of our planet. They are the genetic pinnacle of millions of years of evolution - the ultimate predator. From the steaming jungles of Sumatra to the snowy wilderness of the Russian far east, they are the apex predator - the latter of this species, the Amur tiger, even dominates the brown bears and wolves that share their range."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ykiGAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=tiger+predation+on+brown+bear+new+accounts&source
I can show more sources, but I don't wanna make the post too long. My point being is that, even though the Ussuri brown bear is a large and powerful animal, it is still regularly hunted, killed and eaten by tigers. The tiger is the ruling apex predator of the Ussuri taiga, and locals, biologists and natives regard them as so.
Enough of this...
Apex predators do have their effects even on larger animals that are often preyed upon. But tigers don't exactly "dominate" sloth bears either, whose first instinct on contact is to countercharge, often quite rashly. Neither are said to be particularly afraid of the other.
Anyway, this is a very minor topic & has received more than necessary attention. No more will be entertained.
Also, deliberately posting same stuff again & again will count as spamming and result in instant ban, no matter the reason.
Duplicate profiles by banned members aren't entertained & i spoke in favour of giving you a second chance, as i'd done for @
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Shadow - 11-09-2018
What comes to this interaction between bears and tigers, I think, that one interesting issue concerning these animals to discuss about would be natural factors and do those have different impacts to these animals. Olga.boshoi mentioned in her message before joining this forum, that there aren´t so many brown bears in that area, where there are tigers, but that there are a lot of black bears. That made at least me interested, because even though I didn´t think, that tigers would expel suddenly brown bears, it of course raised question, that has something else happened in time.
Then I found that one report about forest fires where was told, that those fires have had real impact to brown bear population because fire damages forces brown bears to migrate and find areas with food and sufficient habitat. Then again raises question, that when forest fires have such impact to brown bears forcing them to resettle at least for some time period, how come there still are a lot of black bears? Black bears, after all should also suffer if flora is destroyed.
It would be nice to know more, that where biggest forest fires have been? And have in those areas been also tigers and black bears, and if so, why brown bears suffer most about such catastrophes? Or have these fires happened mainly in areas, where mostly only brown bears, what comes to predators?
A little bit out of that, but then again poaching.... when tigers are most probably nowadays under best surveillance and protection, does that leave for instance brown bears more vulnerable for poaching outside "tiger areas"? Bear is after all, always been a very wanted animal for many hunters and also many superstitions included to it. Areas there are huge and it is logical, that when protection is focused to certain place, other areas can´t be supervised and protected as good with limited resources.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-09-2018
About the forest fires; brown bears find most of their food from the forest floor. Acorns and pine nuts, as well as low-growing berries, etc. Also digging for roots, tubers, and burrowing rodents. My knowledge on Asiatic bear feeding habits is limited, but perhaps they find more high-growing food stuffs. Of course, if the fires ruined most food stuffs on the forest floor, this would be as bad for the wild boar as for the grizzly. That would greatly affect the tiger. Perhaps also there is vegetation that survives the fire edible to deer but not for bears. This has my mind spinning.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Shadow - 11-13-2018
Here one interesting video if not posted earlier. Bear and tiger are almost same time on carcass in this. Tiger arrives only an hour later than the bear, but bear had already taken carcass to better place :) Interesting though, that bear later comes back too and stay there longer time. Both animals acting calmly, even though it is clear, that both have to be aware about presence of each others. Old video, but so few have seen it, that I decided to put it here.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - brotherbear - 11-13-2018
Interesting video Shadow.
RE: Bear and Big Cat interactions in the wild - Olga.bohai - 11-14-2018
(11-09-2018, 09:28 PM)Shadow Wrote: It would be nice to know more, that where biggest forest fires have been? And have in those areas been also tigers and black bears, and if so, why brown bears suffer most about such catastrophes? Or have these fires happened mainly in areas, where mostly only brown bears, what comes to predators?
Everybody suffers about forest fires. On the South there were more forest fires because less snow. Nowadays there is the same impact both on the North and on the South because of National parks protection activities.
Than Hymalayan bears were under protection of the Red Book till 2000-s. Plus Hymalayan bear is more tropical animal and they live mostly on the South of the Far East where tigers (also tropical) used to live, and brown bear prefers North.