+- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Information Section (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-information-section)
+--- Forum: Terrestrial Wild Animals (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-terrestrial-wild-animals)
+---- Forum: Wild Cats (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-wild-cats)
+----- Forum: Jaguar (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-jaguar)
+----- Thread: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars (/topic-modern-weights-and-measurements-of-jaguars)
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-04-2020
When the jaguars achieve that weight we gotta also see how often this happens for example lets say there's a 160kg+ male verified in pantanal, is he the only one or would there be more on that size? its about prey abundance and competition ( in this case with men too in order to get the large prey the cattle ) but preys in abundance such as caimans that are doing pretty good today in numbers are also really important and plays a major role for modern pantanal jaguars attain the size they got specially up north.
I would be very glad if I see a MODERN 160kg+ in Pantanal or Llanos male but at same time I will ask myself how often is it because one thing I know for certain is that it is normal on modern jaguars for Pantanal males to reach 130kg and Cerrado males to reach 110kg, that is something I am sure of. Its something that 40 years ago would happen very occasionally ( many verified and confirmed ones like today ) but not today. But for those tremendous size there has to be good variety of genes as well as alot of prey base and which some of it specially pecaries are still illegally poached.
With that being said, if there was massive jaguars not too long ago, yes I think modern jaguars with a very good prey base specially large ones can attain massive sizes like that but human's interuptions may not let that happen and jaguars gotta adapt to what they have today.
@"OncaAtrox" That man-eater jag is a beast.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 06-04-2020
@Dark Jaguar yes, it'd be interesting to know how common those huge jaguars would be. I believe jaguars don't necessarily need cattle to get big, but of a constant supply of medium-sized prey like capybara, peccary, caiman, and deer they can consume regularly. For this, the populations of those animals have to be plentiful. A jaguar that kills a prey of 60 kg every fourth day and consumes 40 to 50 kg in each sitting will grow big, especially during its developmental years, there is no need for cattle.
And what you said about genetic diversity is key, genes are what determine the health and good morphology of these jaguars, do corridors are essential to allow the travel of different populations into different areas.
In my opinion, as long as there are 10% monster jaguars in a population that successfully breed with different females and their cubs have access to the plentiful prey I described before, those cubs would grow to probably attain similar large sizes increasing steadily the overall weight average of that population.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-04-2020
@"OncaAtrox"
Yeah jaguars don't need cattle to get large the cattles case is a consequence by humans, jaguars see them available, some will go for it, in Cerrado the jaguars monitored by IOP don't even use the huge PNE ( Parque Nacional das Emas ) area that much, they instead reside more often the border areas because its closer to farm and rural areas due to the food offer.
*This image is copyright of its original author
note: Richard cerrado male rules the south area though.
Exactly, The viable genetic has to be diverse in order for them not to start mating only with relatives and weakens the genes in a long term, there has to be good numbers to prevent this, vast territory and corridors are essential keys as well.
In southern cerrado near PNE there's a corridor through the Araguaia river that takes cerrado jaguars all the way up to Amazon.
The Araguaia river is the best corridor they got cause it connects the 2 largest biomes of the country: Cerrado and Amazon.
Watch this video
Yeah that's a good point the siberian tiger is a similar situation to the jaguars I used to say that alot in the past.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 06-04-2020
@Dark Jaguar this is why I'm so intrigued about the size of the Aurora jaguars, the people who own the hato have claimed that there areoare 42,000 heads of capybara, almost 3,000 white tailed deer, thousands of spectacle caiman, as well as strong presence of peccary, feral hog and feral horse, tapirs have also been found in the reserve. With such an amount of prey there is no wonder why those jaguars grow so big. It also important to highlight that despite the heavy presence of cattle in the reserve, jaguars do not hunt them as they don't don't see the need to do so when they have other options available that won't get them into trouble.
I'm also extremely intrigued about the dynamics of wild horses and jaguars in the Llano. Is predation occuring? And if so at what rate?
I will watch that video later today, thanks for the information on Cerrado jaguars, I had no idea they preferred the outlines of the reserve closer to human activity.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-04-2020
@"OncaAtrox"
Jaguars are really interesting creatures, we never know what they're thinking even on a perfect enviornment ( through our eyes ) they may still find difficuties to reside the area it could be smell of another male or another annoyance for the animal we can't see, the Aurora jaguars avoid the cattles unlike the southern cerrado population which also got pretty good prey base in PNE and yet prefer the ranch areas, I think that one thing to bear in mind before starting jaguar conservations is to be expecting anything from them, jaguars are good at surprising researchers in many ways haha.
It wouldn't surprise me if jaguars in Llanos are preying on the wild horses, I am more than curious to find out as well. Llanos area should be studied ASAP.
By the way are you gonna watch Leandro's upcoming live of just answering questions?? I got 2 questions regarding Rogério cerrado male's weight obviously and also regarding modern cerrado jaguars average size but it'll be a war getting through the comment section among tons of people.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 06-04-2020
I have major doubts that Horses make up a significant amount of Jaguar prey base.
Horses are very alert and can be quite dangerous, Jaguars with any sufficient natural prey base would not to test itself with such a dangerous animal often. It'd be a specialized cat and probably wouldn't happen often.
In regards to Aurora Jaguars size, we've already had scientists from Aurora in the S. Pantanal and they told Edu that Pantanal Males were larger.
You guys should ask him about it if you get a chance.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 06-04-2020
@Pckts so far Panthera has not conducted any captures so it's hard to gage if they are bigger or smaller. We'll need concrete data for that. They're just a very understudied population as a whole compared to other jaguars.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 06-04-2020
(06-04-2020, 08:47 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote: @Pckts so far Panthera has not conducted any captures so it's hard to gage if they are bigger or smaller. We'll need concrete data for that. They're just a very understudied population as a whole compared to other jaguars.
We still have one male captured with a weight of 93kg and while this eye witness accounts isn't verified you can generally tell when you view animals up close which is larger. Especially if you spend many years with them like they do in Aurora and the Pantanal.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 06-04-2020
(06-04-2020, 08:55 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote: @Pckts I have asked Ricardo Ortiz who works for Panthera Colombia and has done tracking in Pantanal as well about his opinion on the matter. I'll share here what he says.
Can you also ask him what parts of the Pantanal has he viewed Jaguars in.
If he's been to North and South, can you ask him the differences between the two species, if any as well?
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-04-2020
@Pckts
We're not comparing which population is larger on this subject we're just finding each areas prey base is enough to see if they can grow to large extant.
Horses are fast as hell for sure but if a determined large Llanos male jaguar get hold of one through ambush I am sure it can westle it down through brute force and get the job done imo, they most likely avoid preying horses but it wouldn't surprise me if I run into horses predation case even if 2-3 cases, these jags surprise every single day .
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Pckts - 06-04-2020
(06-04-2020, 09:04 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts
We're not comparing which population is larger on this subject we're just finding each areas prey base is enough to see if they can grow to large extant.
Horses are fast as hell for sure but if a determined large Llanos male jaguar get hold of one through ambush I am sure it can westle it down through brute force and get the job done imo, they most likely avoid preying horses but it wouldn't surprise me if I run into horses predation case even if 2-3 cases, these jags surprise every single day .
Not only are horses fast but they are smart and very aggressive.
If you hear people discuss Zebra in Africa they always say that the Zebra are much harder to prey on for Lions than Wildebeest. And this is for numerous reasons, 1st being that Zebra are very away and smart, they always say Wildebeest are "dumb", 2nd is the aggressive nature of Zebras, they are very tough fighters when pushed to a corner and Lions will have a tough time killing them if the Zebra is in a possession to fight back.
Which is why I'm putting horses in that same category as Zebra and not to mention that Horses, depending on the breed can be even larger than Zebra are.
But certainly if a determined, big male Jag gets a hold of a Horse, it has the ability to kill it.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-04-2020
@Pckts
Yeah I know but Lioness prey on zebras and I know they're more adapted to hunting them than a jaguar and most cases lioness are in group but if a lioness sized, muscular Llanos male jaguar manage to take it down it can get the job done but it will be hard to take it down for sure and the jag also may come out of it injured, I am not saying it happens regularly but it may happen and I wouldn't be surprised at all if I run into cases of it.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-06-2020
2 more cerrado male jags from early 2000.
The 2 adult cerrado male jaguars from the infanticide case and study captured at PNE in around 2001 are ready to join the Cerrado jag table.
ID Age Weight Source Area Year
M01 Ad 90kg IOP PNE 2001
M02 Ad 105kg IOP PNE 2001
https://www.scielo.br/pdf/gmb/v29n4/32128.pdf
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Learn more about the whole infantice case of the cerrado jaguars on my post #57 in the ''Jaguars of Brazil'' thread.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Balam - 06-08-2020
Ricardo Ortiz had this to say about Aurora/Pantanal jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Translation: "the Jaguars from Aurora are big, but the ones from Pantanal are bigger due to the prey they consume, cheers!"
He also did tracking of jaguars in the south of Pantanal un Mato Grosso do Sul
I asked him is he could estimate the weight of some males in the area, this was his answer:
*This image is copyright of its original author
"I estimate an adult male from that area to weight between 90 to 110 kg"
So it seems like Aurora jaguars are more similar in size to Cerrado jaguars based on his opinion! Nonetheless I will be expectant for when they start doing captures.
RE: Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars - Dark Jaguar - 06-08-2020
(06-08-2020, 02:14 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: Ricardo Ortiz had this to say about Aurora/Pantanal jaguars:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Translation: "the Jaguars from Aurora are big, but the ones from Pantanal are bigger due to the prey they consume, cheers!"
He also did tracking of jaguars in the south of Pantanal un Mato Grosso do Sul
I asked him is he could estimate the weight of some males in the area, this was his answer:
*This image is copyright of its original author
"I estimate an adult male from that area to weight between 90 to 110 kg"
So it seems like Aurora jaguars are more similar in size to Cerrado jaguars based on his opinion! Nonetheless I will be expectant for when they start doing captures.
Nice info on the Aurora jags they seem to be similar to Cerrado jaguars and both will surprise us for sure. do you know if there was any register of melanistic jaguar in Llanos overall??