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+----- Thread: Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage (/topic-avoca-male-lions-and-their-male-lineage)
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RE: Avoca male lions - Ttimemarti - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 08:52 AM)Mapokser Wrote: There's a video of Mohawk getting dominated by one of ther younger Nkuhuma males in a kill.
Really?
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 04-22-2023
Plains Camp young male, son of S. Avocas:
Photo Credits: moosawildlife
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 08:52 AM)Mapokser Wrote: There's a video of Mohawk getting dominated by one of ther younger Nkuhuma males in a kill.
Not suprising, Mohawk is not controling or dominating them or territory anymore, he is just hanging with them, like DM was with Talamatis.
Meaning he is a member of that group as any other, and not their "boss" like he was before.
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 04-22-2023
Its probably time to close the book on the Northern Avocas. With the last remaining member joining and taking on a rather unremarkable role in a bigger coalition. The old coalition came to an end.
RE: Avoca male lions - BigLion39 - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 08:52 AM)Mapokser Wrote: There's a video of Mohawk getting dominated by one of ther younger Nkuhuma males in a kill.
If its the same short video I saw then I def would not call it dominated. IMHO, the younger was jocking for position and Mohawk wouldn't let him take his position but at the same time Mohawk didn't really fight back, he just didn't move. The youngsters clearly have passed the stage of being passive and submissive tho and Mohawk cannot lead them anymore.
RE: Avoca male lions - WildLeonis - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 11:47 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Plains Camp young male, son of S. Avocas:
Photo Credits: moosawildlife
*This image is copyright of its original author
Very pretty boy. Looks just like his fathers. How many males have the Southern Avocas sired?
Quote:@BigLion39 If its the same short video I saw then I def would not call it dominated. IMHO, the younger was jocking for position and Mohawk wouldn't let him take his position but at the same time Mohawk didn't really fight back, he just didn't move. The youngsters clearly have passed the stage of being passive and submissive tho and Mohawk cannot lead them anymore.
If they were all still apart of the pride and Blondie were still alive and healthy these guys would’ve likely got pushed out by now. They are certainly old enough to start their nomadic journey to other areas but since Mohawk is on his own this is his inevitable fate, hanging out with his sons as an equal no longer an authority figure.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 07:38 PM)WildLeonis Wrote: How many males have the Southern Avocas sired?
This is the oldest son, i think he is only male from his generation in PC pride, others are females.
They have 4/5 or so sons in Sand River pride, but they are young, around 2 or so.
RE: Avoca male lions - Mapokser - 04-22-2023
@BigLion39 Mohawk was definitely pushed aside while both were growling at each other and pushing each other's heads, the young male had the clear upper hand and dominated the kill. This is how lions usually compete with each other while feeding.
Yes Mohawk could have fought but the curious thing is that he didn't and accepted the submissive role despite being their "boss" for their entire lives and also interesting that the sub ( not even the oldest one ) had the balls to push aside his father despite seeing him as the "boss" for his entire life and Mohawk having a much bigger mane.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Mohawk is struggling to eat. It's even more clear in the vid when you can actually see him being pushed.
RE: Avoca male lions - Tr1x24 - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 10:13 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @BigLion39 Mohawk was definitely pushed aside while both were growling at each other and pushing each other's heads, the young male had the clear upper hand and dominated the kill. This is how lions usually compete with each other while feeding.
Yes Mohawk could have fought but the curious thing is that he didn't and accepted the submissive role despite being their "boss" for their entire life and also interesting that the sub ( not even the oldest one ) had the balls to push aside his father despite seeing him as the "boss" for his entire life and Mohawk having a much bigger mane.
Fights over dinner table always happen, even when they where just cubs and subadults they fight their bigger fathers to get a share, problem for Mohawk now is that they grew up and are much stronger, so he cant push them around anymore.
On top of that, his sons "feel" and know that he is not a territorial/dominant male anymore, as he once was.
RE: Avoca male lions - Potato - 04-22-2023
(04-22-2023, 10:13 PM)Mapokser Wrote: had the balls to push aside his father despite seeing him as the "boss" for his entire life and Mohawk having a much bigger mane.Muscles mass impact level of strenght, size of mane does not. The boy is bigger, stronger and therefore has upperhand. Judging lion's fighting capabilities by the size of his mane are like judging men's fighting capabilities by the size of his beard.
RE: Avoca male lions - afortich - 04-22-2023
I think that pushing once dad a bit in a kill when subadults are as big as Mohawk is insufficient information yet to determine that Mohawk is no longer at command of his sons.
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 04-23-2023
Lions don't have a hierarchical command structure. Nor do the older lions teach the younger ones how to be dominant faster.
Mohawk has always been in a coalition. So after the death of his brothers he is missing that in his life and is now just following the closest thing to that available right now. Which is tagging along with his sons. That is all.
His experience may help them out in some situations when the circumstances align in a way he gets to use it. But for the most part he will be just another lion in a new rookie coalition.
RE: Avoca male lions - afortich - 04-23-2023
(04-23-2023, 12:17 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions don't have a hierarchical command structure. Nor do the older lions teach the younger ones how to be dominant faster.
Mohawk has always been in a coalition. So after the death of his brothers he is missing that in his life and is now just following the closest thing to that available right now. Which is tagging along with his sons. That is all.
His experience may help them out in some situations when the circumstances align in a way he gets to use it. But for the most part he will be just another lion in a new rookie coalition.
Agree. All I'm saying, in other words because the word "command" seems to be understood like in hierarchy or rank, is that there is not enough information to determine whether who dominates who, who leads, etc.
RE: Avoca male lions - Ttimemarti - 04-23-2023
(04-23-2023, 12:17 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Lions don't have a hierarchical command structure. Nor do the older lions teach the younger ones how to be dominant faster.
Mohawk has always been in a coalition. So after the death of his brothers he is missing that in his life and is now just following the closest thing to that available right now. Which is tagging along with his sons. That is all.
His experience may help them out in some situations when the circumstances align in a way he gets to use it. But for the most part he will be just another lion in a new rookie coalition.
I thought they did?
RE: Avoca male lions - Duco Ndona - 04-23-2023
There is a vague picking order. But its not well defined but more blurry. The strongest lion may be more charitable and easier to steal food from than a weaker member in a bad mood and so on.
Its definitely not like the biggest stronger lion eats first and then the second strongest etc that you sometimes see in movies.
Even in decision making its more decentralised. One lioness stands up and begins stretching etc to go for a hunt. The rest just looks at her and decide for themselves if they want to go aswell.. Some may get up as well and if enough lions do that They all go.
But if enough lions keep laying down. The original lioness that stood up lies down as well.
Offcource there is some natural order in things. Like some lions being more followers than others. But definitely not an alpha thing or something like that. If they feel like it they have no issue following the weakest for a bit.