(11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: We know that African lions and Asiatic Lions cannot reproduce together. Some Indian zoos director tried to do that, total failure, the engendered individuals were defect, flaw... Thus we can almost already say that African and Asiatic lions are two dictint species. Because that is that, the specy definition isn' t ? The reproduction ability between males and females within this same specy...

(11-02-2018, 04:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: About #185: you put the dogs and the panthera felidae(s) on the same classification level  as the dogs. Why not ? It's clear for me there is not one single specy of what we call dog. You take together a shepherd dog and a terrier dog, nothing happens... The dogs are considered by the scientists as a group called "canis lupus familiaris", this group and the "canis lupus" group forming a part of the canidae(s), I presume...

That's logic !

(11-04-2018, 04:54 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

Quote:Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. 

464 kg... P. fossilis was really a titanic predator dwarfing all felines we have on the planet now! So 140 cm shoulder height is not impossible digit.

Thanks a lot for the answer, every your post in the area of paleontology has a value equal to the value of all of our posts combined together.

(11-04-2018, 08:08 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 04:54 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

Quote:Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. 

464 kg... P. fossilis was really a titanic predator dwarfing all felines we have on the planet now! So 140 cm shoulder height is not impossible digit.

Thanks a lot for the answer, every your post in the area of paleontology has a value equal to the value of all of our posts combined together.

We must be carefull with the estimates based in only one bone. For example I will consider that of the skull the most reliable, but it will depends of the database used (the more specimens the better), for example there is a problem with the lion, as this species had a large head in comparison with its body and consequently with its body mass, this means that a large skull do not represent a large specimen all the time. Also, 380 mm will be "average" for lions in South Africa but is the maximum for lions in East Africa.

I will recoment to use more specimens like Christiansen & Harris (2009) which use many lions, tigers and jaguars to provide a wide spectrum. The method used by Sorkin (2008) is the same formula but using only the largest specimens (commonly not related between each other): If we use the maximum figures for modern lion in scientific records, which is a skull of 401 mm and a weight of 250 kg, will produce a mass of 441.5 kg; if we use the maximum in hunting records, which is 419 mm skull and a weight of 272 kg, will produce a mass of 421.1 kg; if we use average for South Africa lions, which is 380 mm skull and weigh of 190 kg, the mass will be 394.3 kg; finally if we use the average of East African lion, which is 363 mm skull and 175 kg, will produce a mass of 416.6 kg. The average of all figures is 418.4 kg, which is a real giant amoung the great cats and probably the largest Felidae ever!

Now about the limbs, some bones may be very long and other very wide, for example the longest femur from Panthera atrox is not the widest. Christiansen & Harris (2005) noted this with the Smilodon, where some bones provide lower estimations than others, even amount one single specimen, check this: Single bones produced different estimations, and this is clear when we see the result of the complete (associated bones) of Smilodon fatalis and Smilodon populator fossils used by Christiansen & Harris (2005):

* Smilodon fatalis - LACM PMS1-1:
Range: 195.1 - 279.0 kg, mean of 4 bones= 241 kg (weighted).

* Smilodon populator  - CN52
Range: 231.2 - 316.2 kg, mean of 4 bones= 258.2 kg (weighted).

So the best form will be to have many bones from the same specimen in order to make an "average" of the estimations made, but as we know, this is normally not the case, as most of the specimens are fragmentary.

(11-04-2018, 08:14 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: I think that it may be important to mention that some of these bones mentioned in the Smilodon section could represent males and females combined. Is the gender of these cats mentioned or not? Also, what evidence is there of Smilodon sexual dimorphism?

(11-04-2018, 08:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 08:14 AM)Kingtheropod Wrote: I think that it may be important to mention that some of these bones mentioned in the Smilodon section could represent males and females combined. Is the gender of these cats mentioned or not? Also, what evidence is there of Smilodon sexual dimorphism?

Actually the specimens that I mentioned here (Smilodon fatalis - LACM PMS1-1 and Smilodon populator  - CN52) are the only bones asociated (which means that all the bones from LACM PMS1-1 belonged to the same Smilodon fatalis specimen and all the bones of CN52 belonged to the same Smilodon populator specimen), while all the other estimations were from diferent specimens. As far I remember Christiansen & Harris (2005) did not separated the specimens by sex, but in another study of Dr Christiansen (I don't remember the document name, sorry for that) shows that apparently, the sexual dimorphism in Smilodon was minimal.

(11-04-2018, 08:08 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: The method used by Sorkin (2008) is the same formula but using only the largest specimens (commonly not related between each other): If we use the maximum figures for modern lion in scientific records, which is a skull of 401 mm and a weight of 250 kg, will produce a mass of 441.5 kg; if we use the maximum in hunting records, which is 419 mm skull and a weight of 272 kg, will produce a mass of 421.1 kg; if we use average for South Africa lions, which is 380 mm skull and weigh of 190 kg, the mass will be 394.3 kg; finally if we use the average of East African lion, which is 363 mm skull and 175 kg, will produce a mass of 416.6 kg. The average of all figures is 418.4 kg, which is a real giant amoung the great cats and probably the largest Felidae ever!

(11-04-2018, 12:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Wolverine , I have not read of the released measurements for those fossils since their photos showed up years ago. However, I am certain larger P. fossilis are already on record. Let's use an ideal 200 kg lion as the isometric comparison.

The formula is:

Mass (fossil) = (Measurement of fossil)/(Measurement of extant specimen)^3 * Mass of the extant specimen.

Firstly, the 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg modern lion could have a skull about 380 mm long. Applying these numbers to the aforementioned formula results in a mass of 415 kg.

Next, the 465 mm ulna (Reichenau 1908). A 200 kg lion could have an ulna about 385 mm long. Calculate... this P. fossilis weighed 352 kg.

Finally, the giant 192 mm MTIII (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg lion could have an MTIII of 145 mm. Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. Perhaps this is somewhat of an overestimate if P. fossilis was even longer limb-wise than the modern lion, but we have no skeletons to support this assumption other than the fact that its descendant, P. atrox, was indeed proportionally longer limb-wise. Moreover, MTIIIs vary a lot between individuals in relation to body size/mass. Nonetheless, the specimen was likely no less than 400 kg.

Both the MTIII and ulna can be confounded by an increased cursoriality in P. fossilis but the former much more so. The elongated skull of P. fossilis can also confound the isometric comparison to a degree.

From the scant fossil record, it is quite apparent P. fossilis consistently produced what would be giants by modern standards. For instance, many of the fragmented mandibles were likely from skulls that exceeded 400 mm. By probability and comparison of samples, P. fossilis was likely larger than P. atrox as well. The excessively large long bones of P. fossilis also hint that 130-140 cm at the shoulder would be comfortably attained by some of the largest specimens.

@epaiva I will post some photos soon, sorry about the wait.

(11-04-2018, 04:54 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 12:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote: Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. 

464 kg... P. fossilis was really a titanic predator dwarfing all felines we have on the planet now! So 140 cm shoulder height is not impossible digit.

Thanks a lot for the answer, every your post in the area of paleontology has a value equal to the value of all of our posts combined together.

(11-04-2018, 08:08 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 04:54 AM)Wolverine Wrote:

Quote:Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. 

464 kg... P. fossilis was really a titanic predator dwarfing all felines we have on the planet now! So 140 cm shoulder height is not impossible digit.

Thanks a lot for the answer, every your post in the area of paleontology has a value equal to the value of all of our posts combined together.

We must be carefull with the estimates based in only one bone. For example I will consider that of the skull the most reliable, but it will depends of the database used (the more specimens the better), for example there is a problem with the lion, as this species had a large head in comparison with its body and consequently with its body mass, this means that a large skull do not represent a large specimen all the time. Also, 380 mm will be "average" for lions in South Africa but is the maximum for lions in East Africa.

I will recoment to use more specimens like Christiansen & Harris (2009) which use many lions, tigers and jaguars to provide a wide spectrum. The method used by Sorkin (2008) is the same formula but using only the largest specimens (commonly not related between each other): If we use the maximum figures for modern lion in scientific records, which is a skull of 401 mm and a weight of 250 kg, will produce a mass of 441.5 kg; if we use the maximum in hunting records, which is 419 mm skull and a weight of 272 kg, will produce a mass of 421.1 kg; if we use average for South Africa lions, which is 380 mm skull and weigh of 190 kg, the mass will be 394.3 kg; finally if we use the average of East African lion, which is 363 mm skull and 175 kg, will produce a mass of 416.6 kg. The average of all figures is 418.4 kg, which is a real giant amoung the great cats and probably the largest Felidae ever!

Now about the limbs, some bones may be very long and other very wide, for example the longest femur from Panthera atrox is not the widest. Christiansen & Harris (2005) noted this with the Smilodon, where some bones provide lower estimations than others, even amount one single specimen, check this: Single bones produced different estimations, and this is clear when we see the result of the complete (associated bones) of Smilodon fatalis and Smilodon populator fossils used by Christiansen & Harris (2005):

* Smilodon fatalis - LACM PMS1-1:
Range: 195.1 - 279.0 kg, mean of 4 bones= 241 kg (weighted).

* Smilodon populator  - CN52
Range: 231.2 - 316.2 kg, mean of 4 bones= 258.2 kg (weighted).

So the best form will be to have many bones from the same specimen in order to make an "average" of the estimations made, but as we know, this is normally not the case, as most of the specimens are fragmentary.

(11-04-2018, 10:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 12:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Wolverine , I have not read of the released measurements for those fossils since their photos showed up years ago. However, I am certain larger P. fossilis are already on record. Let's use an ideal 200 kg lion as the isometric comparison.

The formula is:

Mass (fossil) = (Measurement of fossil)/(Measurement of extant specimen)^3 * Mass of the extant specimen.

Firstly, the 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg modern lion could have a skull about 380 mm long. Applying these numbers to the aforementioned formula results in a mass of 415 kg.

Next, the 465 mm ulna (Reichenau 1908). A 200 kg lion could have an ulna about 385 mm long. Calculate... this P. fossilis weighed 352 kg.

Finally, the giant 192 mm MTIII (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg lion could have an MTIII of 145 mm. Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. Perhaps this is somewhat of an overestimate if P. fossilis was even longer limb-wise than the modern lion, but we have no skeletons to support this assumption other than the fact that its descendant, P. atrox, was indeed proportionally longer limb-wise. Moreover, MTIIIs vary a lot between individuals in relation to body size/mass. Nonetheless, the specimen was likely no less than 400 kg.

Both the MTIII and ulna can be confounded by an increased cursoriality in P. fossilis but the former much more so. The elongated skull of P. fossilis can also confound the isometric comparison to a degree.

From the scant fossil record, it is quite apparent P. fossilis consistently produced what would be giants by modern standards. For instance, many of the fragmented mandibles were likely from skulls that exceeded 400 mm. By probability and comparison of samples, P. fossilis was likely larger than P. atrox as well. The excessively large long bones of P. fossilis also hint that 130-140 cm at the shoulder would be comfortably attained by some of the largest specimens.

@epaiva I will post some photos soon, sorry about the wait.

Was the 192 mm MTIII specimen larger than the Chateau skull?

If we use the respective body parts of a 200 kg lion as the samples, it does appear so.

Maybe the 192 mm MTIII specimen could acquire a skull close to 500 mm which is the absolute maximum for any Panthera specimen?

(11-04-2018, 11:21 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 10:44 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(11-04-2018, 12:25 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @Wolverine , I have not read of the released measurements for those fossils since their photos showed up years ago. However, I am certain larger P. fossilis are already on record. Let's use an ideal 200 kg lion as the isometric comparison.

The formula is:

Mass (fossil) = (Measurement of fossil)/(Measurement of extant specimen)^3 * Mass of the extant specimen.

Firstly, the 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg modern lion could have a skull about 380 mm long. Applying these numbers to the aforementioned formula results in a mass of 415 kg.

Next, the 465 mm ulna (Reichenau 1908). A 200 kg lion could have an ulna about 385 mm long. Calculate... this P. fossilis weighed 352 kg.

Finally, the giant 192 mm MTIII (Marciszak et al. 2014). A 200 kg lion could have an MTIII of 145 mm. Calculate... a whopping 464 kg. Perhaps this is somewhat of an overestimate if P. fossilis was even longer limb-wise than the modern lion, but we have no skeletons to support this assumption other than the fact that its descendant, P. atrox, was indeed proportionally longer limb-wise. Moreover, MTIIIs vary a lot between individuals in relation to body size/mass. Nonetheless, the specimen was likely no less than 400 kg.

Both the MTIII and ulna can be confounded by an increased cursoriality in P. fossilis but the former much more so. The elongated skull of P. fossilis can also confound the isometric comparison to a degree.

From the scant fossil record, it is quite apparent P. fossilis consistently produced what would be giants by modern standards. For instance, many of the fragmented mandibles were likely from skulls that exceeded 400 mm. By probability and comparison of samples, P. fossilis was likely larger than P. atrox as well. The excessively large long bones of P. fossilis also hint that 130-140 cm at the shoulder would be comfortably attained by some of the largest specimens.

@epaiva I will post some photos soon, sorry about the wait.

Was the 192 mm MTIII specimen larger than the Chateau skull?

If we use the respective body parts of a 200 kg lion as the samples, it does appear so.

Maybe the 192 mm MTIII specimen could acquire a skull close to 500 mm which is the absolute maximum for any Panthera specimen?

The MTIII is a difficult one. One issue is that when calculating the range of weights produced by isometry, the range I found was as low as 400 kg to as high a over 500 kg. In other words, the bone is not that well correlated to body size, but is nonetheless from a top 10 Panthera specimen. The second issue is that if P. fossilis is more cursorial, the MTIII would be proportionately elongated and isometrically comparing the bone to that of an extant lion will heavily overestimate the weight. Thus extrapolating other body parts is filled with uncertainty. A skull length range of 450-500 mm would not be illogical in my opinion.

The issue can be applied to the skull. P. spelaea had a big skull for its bones, bigger than the extant lion. For instance, the specimen is Sabol (2018) has a femur to skull ratio of 0.99, which is distinctly less than extant lion generally as the number in P. leo is over 1.00. That means while applying the 484.7 mm skull to P. leo ratios, we'd think the femur would be 500 mm. Likely in reality the femur of the specimen was 470-480 mm, which is not that much bigger than the largest P. spelaea (470 mm femur from Germany mentioned by Deidrich). Of course still absurdly gigantic, but not what P. leo comparisons would lead one to believe. Another confounding issue is that long snouts usually means proportionately longer skulls for a body mass/size. We know that P. fossilis did have a longer snout that P. spelaea, likely making the long bone to skull ratio somewhat lesser in P. fossilis as compared to P. spelaea, further decreasing long bone length extrapolations by a bit. It is for this reason I feel the 465 mm has been underestimated via isometry or the 484.7 mm skull at least overestimated. Unless P. fossilis is exceptionally cursorial, a 465 mm ulna should give a femur of around 480 mm, matching the 484.7 mm skull. Now one can see why mass estimations vary so much, there are too many confounding variables. These two specimens were likely body size-wise just about the same as the 480 mm Ngandong femur for these reasons. Mass is a whole different rabbit hole in its own as the tiger and lion lineages hold mass differently. I have lately avoided addressing the complex topic and just give pure isometry estimates but hopefully this makes sense.

As a whole, the closer the species temporally to an extant species, the more accurate the single bone estimates and vice versa.

(11-04-2018, 06:23 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-02-2018, 12:13 PM)Spalea Wrote: We know that African lions and Asiatic Lions cannot reproduce together. Some Indian zoos director tried to do that, total failure, the engendered individuals were defect, flaw... Thus we can almost already say that African and Asiatic lions are two dictint species. Because that is that, the specy definition isn' t ? The reproduction ability between males and females within this same specy...

In fact is all the contrary. The Indian lion project in European Zoos was canceled because its members were Asiatic-African hybrids. Also there are many "mix" lions, clasify as "Barbary" but at the end are just a soup of genes from different areas. So Asiatic lions and African lions can reproduce perfectly, just like Indian/Amur tigers can reproduce with Sumatran tigers and produce interesting hybrids. Even worst, these African/Asian lion hybrids can reproduce perfectly and that is why many captive lion populations are wortless for conservation; ligers (males at least) can't reproduce as they born sterile.