(05-14-2019, 11:44 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.

As I've mentioned before in this post, Persian leopards predate on larger prey compared to South African leopards. Same applies to Central African (male) leopards, where their main prey are red river hogs (weight 45-115kg, average 70kg).

Quote:You always like to use Skull size to correlate Rainforest Leopards as being Jaguar sized, 100kg beast but these leopards below all scored higher than the highest Estimated Leopard Skull, it is estimated of course off of Condylobasal Length, which already has discrepancies. Just look at the different correlations between each one on this chart below you like to use, so that alone means the Largest one is not confirmed.

The skull measurements in that list are the largest ones from scientific sources, unlike estimates from hunters. 

As I've said many times before, their average is equal in size to Amazon male jaguars and Pantanal jaguaresses. The larger ones rival that of Pantanal males. Tell me, what makes you think that these males average 65kg with such large skulls? It's not accurate but still a good indicator. Photographic evidence proves that even more.

Quote:Ashok Rajasingh Big record size male will be 80 kg. Average male is 55 to 65 kg. The biggest animals seem to come from dryer open scrub regions. Varies according to local conditions. Rain forest animals are generally smaller - 50 kg

That's false... Now I have to share this once again:

"Robin Hurt had some experience hunting in Central Africa (DR Congo, CAR, Sudan). He only hunted one leopard in DR Congo and it turned out to be the biggest he encountered. He said it was almost as big as a lioness, its skull was over 11 inches long and he estimated the weight at 220lbs. According to him, the biggest leopards in Africa are usually found in the rainforest areas (both Central and East Africa). He also adds that very big leopard can sometimes be found in Southern Africa (Zimbabwe and Namibia etc) but these are exceptions. He is currently based in Namibia so he has no incentive to exaggerate the size of Congo leopards where trophy hunting is now banned. Robin Hurt's experience mirrors that of Peter TurnBull-Kemp who had also dealt with leopards from throughout Africa and similarly concluded the biggest are found in the equatorial forests. The biggest leopard Turnbull-Kemp had ever seen was a monster specimen killed in Cameroon. I'm not surprised by the convergent opinion of both these very experienced authorities on African leopards given the fact it is strongly supported by skull data and frankly a logical understanding of natural selection."

*This image is copyright of its original author

As for Sri Lankan leopard; "here are two vaguely separable types. The massive and stockily built ones, others lankier and more slenderly built. The size of a leopard, its skull etc, will depend largely on the availability of food and the age of the specimen under examination."

(05-13-2019, 10:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: @Styx38 

Let's start right here...

"4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Do you know what's changed in those 3 years?
I've now been to both Africa and India now, I've befriended and spoken with more wildlife experts than in any time prior to my life and I've been to more Sanctuaries and Zoos then at any point prior in my life.
I've seen and spoken to far to many people and things to keep the same perspective I had 3.5 years ago, if you haven't then that's on you.
So needless to say, a weight I was already skeptical on 3.5 years ago has only become more far fetched. Considering I have now seen many Persian weights, spoken with field experts and hunting records to compare, I can say with more confidence now then ever that the weight of 115kg is not valid. A Leopard with a missing paw and no extraordinary dimensions isn't a record Persian Leopard, the largest you have is 91kg on baited cats, this is also why Panthera group doesn't recognize it as valid nor will most.
In regards to the posts on Sambar, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at?
Leopards prey on Adult Sambar, simple as that. 
No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. 
In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.
 
"264
Leopard
Jan 31, 2018
PM
4,5
Tazin
A leopard was sighted when it killed a sambar deer."
https://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/animal-movement/index?page=14&sort=note



So the idea that the Leopards don't kill large prey in the presence of another Predator is wrong, they are very location dependent, even treeing prey is dependent on location, obviously the location must have trees close by or else they must eat in a bush they drag their prey to. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

They just prefer prey smaller than themselves if possible, but again it's dependent on the Cat it self.
We have 20+ pages of Leopards make all kinds of kills, with obvious leopards showing distinct killing techniques depending on their location and individual. You see this in Leopards killing Warthog by Chest bite, an obvious adaption to avoid their dangerous tusks and their thick necks.  This technique isn't something any Leopard can do, it's a skill required of a larger individual.
Hence why we usually see it in males, I don't recall a single female killing a Large Warthog that way.
 




Lastly, in regards to the correlation of Large Carnivores present to Leopards...

"Tanzania’s Renowned Maswa North Game Reserve – Maswa North is considered by many to be one of the African continents leading prime game hunting areas. This hunting area can be reached by private air charter or by flying commercial to Mwanza and driving approximately 4 hours to camp. Maswa’s 751 square kilometers is located along the southwestern boundary of the Serengeti National Park. More than 1.5 million Wildebeest migrate from the Serengeti National Park through Maswa North Game Reserve in January and February feeding on the new growth of grasses after the short rains of November and December. The Southern part of Maswa forms the Serengeti short grass plains. Bottom line, the proximity of Maswa to the Serengeti National Park: The climate is moderate here with cold nights in July, August and early September. During the day temperatures will reach upwards of 80 degrees F. Game is plentiful and Maswa offers exceptional trophy quality for Cape Buffalo with bulls between 45 and 48 inches harvested annually; and where you have plenty of Buffalo you will find good numbers of black manned Lions. In addition you will see large Leopards and other splendid trophies that include Robert’s Gazelle, Roan, Cokes Hartebeest, Grant’s Gazelle, Thompson’s Gazelle, East African Impala, Zebra, Defassa Waterbuck, Warthog, Topi, Wildebeest, Baboon, Bushbuck, Eland, Bohor Reedbuck, Klipspringer, Steinbuck, Hyena, Jackal and Ostrich."

We know what Black Maned Lions mean and if those are the healthiest of Male Lions and you find large Leopards in the same location, that only means that they both coexist and excel. 

Proof of this yet again 
"Rungwa East & Rungwa Lunda – Rungwa Game Reserve and Lunda Game Controlled Area of Tanzania covers over 300,000 acres of prime hunting area in the Rungwa Game Reserve and the Lunda Game Controlled Area, sharing over 100 kilometers of common boundary with the Ruaha National park. This area is arguably one of the best hunting areas in Tanzania. It is a known fact that this area holds some of the densest Lion populations in Tanzania as well as countless herds of Cape Buffalo. Numerous in numbers, these areas also abound in excellent trophy quality Leopard, Eland, Sable, Antelope, Roan Antelope, Lichtenstein’s Hartebeest, Zebra, Greater Kudu, Lesser Kudu, Reedbuck, Bushbuck, Oribi, Klipspringer, Dik Dik, Bushpig, Warthog, Hyena, Hippo and Crocodile. There is also a large concentration of elephant in this area, with a number of 50+ pound bulls seen on a regular basis."

http://weshixon.com/trip/tanzania-africa/

As we can see, Leopards from all over Africa have scored higher, weighed more or equal and done so in the presence of Larger Carnivores.


Character Release simply means "character release The principle that a species will be able to exploit a greater range of habitats if it occurs in an environment from which a similar species with which it normally occurs is absent. Compare character displacement. "character release." A Dictionary of Ecology. . "character release."

Which you see in Sri Lankan Leopards for instance, not with size but with density. Sri Lanka is one of the most densely populated Leopard territories on earth, but we're still only speaking on 250 specimens compared to 1000s throughout C. and E. Africa, and this is why their size shows no significant gain from verified weights.

"Restricted dispersal on islands leads to higher population densities, thus to a decrease in body size (Wasserzug et al., 1979) "

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.7130&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Insular Dwarfism generally refers to larger animals while Insular Gigantism generally refers to smaller seed eating animals, Leopards and other carnivores generally are effected by prey bio mass. 

"Among mammals, carnivores dominate much of the literature on morphological relationships. Unsurprisingly, prey size is generally correlated with carnivore body size (Gittleman, 1985), so partitioning food by size may be expected. Larger predators tend to take a larger range of sizes of prey, generally because the upper size limit increases (Schoener, 1969; Wilson, 1975; Gittleman, 1985). In addition, substantial data show aggressive interference among carnivores, associated with competition for prey (discussion in Van Valkenburgh, 1984; Van Valkenburgh & Hertel, 1993). Also, carnivores often have wide geographical ranges, thus interacting with many different sets of species, and they often have pronounced geographical size variation, which has been extensively studied. These lines of research have focused mammalian character displacement research on carnivores, despite well-known obstacles to field research on this group. For two Chilean foxes (Dusicyon culpaeus and D. griseus), Fuentes & Jaksic (1979) perceived character displacement as divergence in body length with increasing latitude, associated with a concomitant increase in habitat overlap. Jimenez (1993) rejected this interpretation, arguing that both species adhered to Bergmann’s rule, increasing in size with increasing latitude.
Rosenzweig (1968), McNab (1971), and Ralls & Harvey (1985) disagreed about character displacement in North American weasels. The former two studies both used head plus body length to characterize size. Rosenzweig (1968), studying males and females of the Stoat Mustela erminea separately, plus a mixed sample, saw latitude and mean annual temperature as largely governing size variation and assigned a minimal role to competition with congeners or to size of available prey. McNab (1971), on the other hand, felt that size of available prey plus character displacement generated by competition with other weasels dominated size variation in the Stoat. He argued similarly for size variation in South American felids and suggested that, in general, where Bergmannian size clines exist at all, they are likely to be a consequence of interspecific competition rather than a response to climatic gradients. Using condylobasal skull length as a size measurement, Ralls & Harvey (1985) found no evidence for character displacement among North American weasels. Rather, for the Stoat, they found a latitudinal size cline, while no correlates were found for size variation in M. frenata or M. nivalis."



There are also examples in that study that you can use to back your claim as well

As you can see, these Rules are very up in the air, we can find examples that prove or disprove them and the scientific community is still split, hence why we can circle back over and over again.
But when you cut out the what ifs and "Rules" and just go off of Measurements and weights you don't see a larger cat just a different one.


All that being said, I once again believe Persians to be the Largest Sub Species and yet they haven't produced a Verified 100kg'er just yet and all the hunting sights I see even with baited cats have still not produced 100kg Leopard either, even with more impressive Skull Measurements and to me that says it all.

Quote:Till now, Tiger [i]Panthera tigris[/i] has not been reported from this site but Leopard [i]Panthera pardus[/i] is quite common, along with the Wild Dog or Dhole Cuon alpinus. Other predators include Hyena Hyaena hyaena, Golden Jackal [i]Canis aureus[/i], Indian Fox Vulpes [i]bengalensis[/i], Small Indian Civet Viverricula indica and Jungle Cat Felis [i]chaus[/i]

(05-14-2019, 09:37 PM)Styx38 Wrote:

(05-13-2019, 10:52 PM)Pckts Wrote: @Styx38 

Let's start right here...

"4) "Persian leopards are apex predators with high altitude in their favor yet they haven't produced a Leopard over 100kg."

Nice contradiction:

(12-22-2015, 02:17 AM)Pckts Wrote: Wrote:Even though I am skeptical of it, it was confirmed by the vet.
The largest verified leopard weight was the 115kg mark set by a persian leopard missing one paw.

Do you know what's changed in those 3 years?
I've now been to both Africa and India now, I've befriended and spoken with more wildlife experts than in any time prior to my life and I've been to more Sanctuaries and Zoos then at any point prior in my life.
I've seen and spoken to far to many people and things to keep the same perspective I had 3.5 years ago, if you haven't then that's on you.
So needless to say, a weight I was already skeptical on 3.5 years ago has only become more far fetched. Considering I have now seen many Persian weights, spoken with field experts and hunting records to compare, I can say with more confidence now then ever that the weight of 115kg is not valid. A Leopard with a missing paw and no extraordinary dimensions isn't a record Persian Leopard, the largest you have is 91kg on baited cats, this is also why Panthera group doesn't recognize it as valid nor will most.
In regards to the posts on Sambar, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at?
Leopards prey on Adult Sambar, simple as that. 
No Leopard sub species preys on 100kg animals all the time, it's why their mean body weight on prey is between 15-60kg no matter the sub species. 
In Ranthambore, one of the highest density of Tigers in India, Leopards make Sambar kills regardless of Tigers being ever present and abundant.
 
"264
Leopard
Jan 31, 2018
PM
4,5
Tazin
A leopard was sighted when it killed a sambar deer."
https://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/animal-movement/index?page=14&sort=note



So the idea that the Leopards don't kill large prey in the presence of another Predator is wrong, they are very location dependent, even treeing prey is dependent on location, obviously the location must have trees close by or else they must eat in a bush they drag their prey to. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

They just prefer prey smaller than themselves if possible, but again it's dependent on the Cat it self.
We have 20+ pages of Leopards make all kinds of kills, with obvious leopards showing distinct killing techniques depending on their location and individual. You see this in Leopards killing Warthog by Chest bite, an obvious adaption to avoid their dangerous tusks and their thick necks.  This technique isn't something any Leopard can do, it's a skill required of a larger individual.
Hence why we usually see it in males, I don't recall a single female killing a Large Warthog that way.
 




Lastly, in regards to the correlation of Large Carnivores present to Leopards...

"Tanzania’s Renowned Maswa North Game Reserve – Maswa North is considered by many to be one of the African continents leading prime game hunting areas. This hunting area can be reached by private air charter or by flying commercial to Mwanza and driving approximately 4 hours to camp. Maswa’s 751 square kilometers is located along the southwestern boundary of the Serengeti National Park. More than 1.5 million Wildebeest migrate from the Serengeti National Park through Maswa North Game Reserve in January and February feeding on the new growth of grasses after the short rains of November and December. The Southern part of Maswa forms the Serengeti short grass plains. Bottom line, the proximity of Maswa to the Serengeti National Park: The climate is moderate here with cold nights in July, August and early September. During the day temperatures will reach upwards of 80 degrees F. Game is plentiful and Maswa offers exceptional trophy quality for Cape Buffalo with bulls between 45 and 48 inches harvested annually; and where you have plenty of Buffalo you will find good numbers of black manned Lions. In addition you will see large Leopards and other splendid trophies that include Robert’s Gazelle, Roan, Cokes Hartebeest, Grant’s Gazelle, Thompson’s Gazelle, East African Impala, Zebra, Defassa Waterbuck, Warthog, Topi, Wildebeest, Baboon, Bushbuck, Eland, Bohor Reedbuck, Klipspringer, Steinbuck, Hyena, Jackal and Ostrich."

We know what Black Maned Lions mean and if those are the healthiest of Male Lions and you find large Leopards in the same location, that only means that they both coexist and excel. 

Proof of this yet again 
"Rungwa East & Rungwa Lunda – Rungwa Game Reserve and Lunda Game Controlled Area of Tanzania covers over 300,000 acres of prime hunting area in the Rungwa Game Reserve and the Lunda Game Controlled Area, sharing over 100 kilometers of common boundary with the Ruaha National park. This area is arguably one of the best hunting areas in Tanzania. It is a known fact that this area holds some of the densest Lion populations in Tanzania as well as countless herds of Cape Buffalo. Numerous in numbers, these areas also abound in excellent trophy quality Leopard, Eland, Sable, Antelope, Roan Antelope, Lichtenstein’s Hartebeest, Zebra, Greater Kudu, Lesser Kudu, Reedbuck, Bushbuck, Oribi, Klipspringer, Dik Dik, Bushpig, Warthog, Hyena, Hippo and Crocodile. There is also a large concentration of elephant in this area, with a number of 50+ pound bulls seen on a regular basis."

http://weshixon.com/trip/tanzania-africa/

As we can see, Leopards from all over Africa have scored higher, weighed more or equal and done so in the presence of Larger Carnivores.


Character Release simply means "character release The principle that a species will be able to exploit a greater range of habitats if it occurs in an environment from which a similar species with which it normally occurs is absent. Compare character displacement. "character release." A Dictionary of Ecology. . "character release."

Which you see in Sri Lankan Leopards for instance, not with size but with density. Sri Lanka is one of the most densely populated Leopard territories on earth, but we're still only speaking on 250 specimens compared to 1000s throughout C. and E. Africa, and this is why their size shows no significant gain from verified weights.

"Restricted dispersal on islands leads to higher population densities, thus to a decrease in body size (Wasserzug et al., 1979) "

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.7130&rep=rep1&type=pdf


Insular Dwarfism generally refers to larger animals while Insular Gigantism generally refers to smaller seed eating animals, Leopards and other carnivores generally are effected by prey bio mass. 

"Among mammals, carnivores dominate much of the literature on morphological relationships. Unsurprisingly, prey size is generally correlated with carnivore body size (Gittleman, 1985), so partitioning food by size may be expected. Larger predators tend to take a larger range of sizes of prey, generally because the upper size limit increases (Schoener, 1969; Wilson, 1975; Gittleman, 1985). In addition, substantial data show aggressive interference among carnivores, associated with competition for prey (discussion in Van Valkenburgh, 1984; Van Valkenburgh & Hertel, 1993). Also, carnivores often have wide geographical ranges, thus interacting with many different sets of species, and they often have pronounced geographical size variation, which has been extensively studied. These lines of research have focused mammalian character displacement research on carnivores, despite well-known obstacles to field research on this group. For two Chilean foxes (Dusicyon culpaeus and D. griseus), Fuentes & Jaksic (1979) perceived character displacement as divergence in body length with increasing latitude, associated with a concomitant increase in habitat overlap. Jimenez (1993) rejected this interpretation, arguing that both species adhered to Bergmann’s rule, increasing in size with increasing latitude.
Rosenzweig (1968), McNab (1971), and Ralls & Harvey (1985) disagreed about character displacement in North American weasels. The former two studies both used head plus body length to characterize size. Rosenzweig (1968), studying males and females of the Stoat Mustela erminea separately, plus a mixed sample, saw latitude and mean annual temperature as largely governing size variation and assigned a minimal role to competition with congeners or to size of available prey. McNab (1971), on the other hand, felt that size of available prey plus character displacement generated by competition with other weasels dominated size variation in the Stoat. He argued similarly for size variation in South American felids and suggested that, in general, where Bergmannian size clines exist at all, they are likely to be a consequence of interspecific competition rather than a response to climatic gradients. Using condylobasal skull length as a size measurement, Ralls & Harvey (1985) found no evidence for character displacement among North American weasels. Rather, for the Stoat, they found a latitudinal size cline, while no correlates were found for size variation in M. frenata or M. nivalis."



There are also examples in that study that you can use to back your claim as well

As you can see, these Rules are very up in the air, we can find examples that prove or disprove them and the scientific community is still split, hence why we can circle back over and over again.
But when you cut out the what ifs and "Rules" and just go off of Measurements and weights you don't see a larger cat just a different one.


All that being said, I once again believe Persians to be the Largest Sub Species and yet they haven't produced a Verified 100kg'er just yet and all the hunting sights I see even with baited cats have still not produced 100kg Leopard either, even with more impressive Skull Measurements and to me that says it all.

I guess I was wrong on the jaguar part.

Anyway, what was the age and sex of the Sambar? How often do they kill adult Sambar, specifically stags or bulls in an area with Tigers or Lions as sympatric carnivores?

Here is the place where Tigers were temporarily extirpated at the time:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopards killed some Sambar stags and lots of hinds, and a few fawns or subadults.



Here is the place where is there no other serious hypercarnivore other than the leopard (Yala National Park):

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author




As can be seen from this study, three sambar stags were killed by leopards.




The main point is that the more opportunities the Leopard has with large prey(without interference from a bigger carnivore) the more it will kill, and there will be larger individuals.


If you are in doubt of 100 kg leopards, wasn't there a Leopard from the Tirumala hill range in Southern part of India by the name of Balaji. He was 108kg when caught in the wild.

You know what he had in common with Persian/Sri Lankan/ Central African Leopards?

No Tigers or Lions within his range:

Quote:Till now, Tiger [i]Panthera tigris[/i] has not been reported from this site but Leopard [i]Panthera pardus[/i] is quite common, along with the Wild Dog or Dhole Cuon alpinus. Other predators include Hyena Hyaena hyaena, Golden Jackal [i]Canis aureus[/i], Indian Fox Vulpes [i]bengalensis[/i], Small Indian Civet Viverricula indica and Jungle Cat Felis [i]chaus[/i]

http://datazone.birdlife.org/site/factsheet/sri-venkateswara-wildlife-sanctuary-and-national-park-iba-india


As you mentioned that prey size is correlated with carnivore size, there will be more Leopards above 70 or 80 kg in a place where there are no carnivores than in the plains of Africa or the Tiger dominated jungles of India and Southeast Asia, due to a higher frequency of killing and getting all its nutrition from larger prey.

The averages may be similar, but there will be more robust individuals.

*This image is copyright of its original author

(05-14-2019, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote: This image is him after not eating for 4 days, he's obviously an obese cat.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Obviously since they give no measurements, it's no recognized in any scientific journal or Guinness, nor is there a record of the capture, location or images, it's anything but verified. 

But in regards to largest Indian Leopards

"The largest individual appears to have been a male man-eater that was shot in the Dhadhol area of Bilaspur district, Himachal Pradesh, in 2016. It reportedly measured 8 ft 7 in (262 cm) from head to tail, 34 in (86 cm) at the shoulder, and weighed 71 kg (157 lb).[14][15]"


and you see here that even these Indian's were larger than their Sri Lankan Cousins

*This image is copyright of its original author

Even while living in Tiger dominated habitats. 


Just in case you were wondering how Leopards do with in Lion Territory, let's look at one of the  arguably Largest Leopard alive today, the Anderson male. 
While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male.

"While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male."

proof of their power

"The Camp Pan male was a big leopard. Fact. He was immensely powerful, and I personally saw him with the hoisted carcasses of kudus, young wildebeest and juvenile zebras. Not small animals to carry up into the trees. His tracks were what really set him apart, however, and I doubt I will ever again see a leopard with feet that big. His “unmistakeable” tracks were, in fact, mistaken for those of a lioness on more than one occasion."

"first things the Anderson male did when establishing territory on Londolozi was to hoist the carcass of a young giraffe. Yes, a giraffe! Giraffe foals are born weighing around 100kg, and I’m here to tell you that the Anderson male had not eaten much of the kill before carrying it into the branches of a long-tailed cassia. It was a truly outrageous display of strength."
https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/23/are-these-the-biggest-leopards-youve-ever-seen/

As you can see, with a huge healthy lion population, not only do we still see arguably the largest Leopards in Africa, we also see a large healthy population of Male Leopards as well. On top of that, you see these big males not only killing 100kg animals but hoisting them into trees if need be and that's not including the feeding they do on the ones that are too large to hoist. 



Last is this...
"As you mentioned that prey size is correlated with carnivore size, there will be more Leopards above 70 or 80 kg in a place where there are no carnivores than in the plains of Africa or the Tiger dominated jungles of India and Southeast Asia, due to a higher frequency of killing and getting all its nutrition from larger prey"

Again, Lion or Tiger dominated Reserves are also Ungulate dominated reserves, Leopards in C. Africa, S. Africa, E. Africa and GIR are all huge healthy cats, Leopards in Kabini, Kanha, Pench, Panna or Umred are all huge as well, showing once again that even in Lion or Tiger dominated areas, Leopards thrive and produce large cats.

Quote:It contrasted findings of the study reported avoidance of sambar instead of constituting the largest proportion of the diet of leopard [1]. Although scat analysis does not provide information on age and sex of prey consumed but can be suspected of yearling and faun age in case of large-sized prey consumed by leopards (Pers. Obs.).High consumption of langur occurred cause of arboreality and crypticity of leopards where they can consume its food without fear of coexisting competitor [5]. Although, it was reported as an alternative preferable prey of leopards in case of prey scarcity [51] which contrasted to our findings in presence of abundant potential prey species. Selection of peafowl or other supplementary small to smaller prey taxa seems reasonable for energy gain per hunting efforts, maximize the resource leopard has for survival when lost immediate hunting to lion [6]. 

(05-15-2019, 01:45 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

(05-14-2019, 10:53 PM)Pckts Wrote: This image is him after not eating for 4 days, he's obviously an obese cat.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Obviously since they give no measurements, it's no recognized in any scientific journal or Guinness, nor is there a record of the capture, location or images, it's anything but verified. 

But in regards to largest Indian Leopards

"The largest individual appears to have been a male man-eater that was shot in the Dhadhol area of Bilaspur district, Himachal Pradesh, in 2016. It reportedly measured 8 ft 7 in (262 cm) from head to tail, 34 in (86 cm) at the shoulder, and weighed 71 kg (157 lb).[14][15]"


and you see here that even these Indian's were larger than their Sri Lankan Cousins

*This image is copyright of its original author

Even while living in Tiger dominated habitats. 


Just in case you were wondering how Leopards do with in Lion Territory, let's look at one of the  arguably Largest Leopard alive today, the Anderson male. 
While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male.

"While the Anderson male was resident in the north-central reaches of the Sabi Sands at a time when the Camp Pan male was holding territory in SE Londolozi, the two males were separated by not only distance but also by the buffer of other big males in between. The only time they could possibly have met up was when the Camp Pan male finally got pushed out of his territory by a combination of the Piva and Inyathini males and became nomadic. Having said this, once evicted the Camp Pan male did seem to confine most of his movements to the areas bordering the Sand River, skulking through the reedbeds and trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible. I doubt whether he moved far enough north that he would have encountered the Anderson male."

proof of their power

"The Camp Pan male was a big leopard. Fact. He was immensely powerful, and I personally saw him with the hoisted carcasses of kudus, young wildebeest and juvenile zebras. Not small animals to carry up into the trees. His tracks were what really set him apart, however, and I doubt I will ever again see a leopard with feet that big. His “unmistakeable” tracks were, in fact, mistaken for those of a lioness on more than one occasion."

"first things the Anderson male did when establishing territory on Londolozi was to hoist the carcass of a young giraffe. Yes, a giraffe! Giraffe foals are born weighing around 100kg, and I’m here to tell you that the Anderson male had not eaten much of the kill before carrying it into the branches of a long-tailed cassia. It was a truly outrageous display of strength."
https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/23/are-these-the-biggest-leopards-youve-ever-seen/

As you can see, with a huge healthy lion population, not only do we still see arguably the largest Leopards in Africa, we also see a large healthy population of Male Leopards as well. On top of that, you see these big males not only killing 100kg animals but hoisting them into trees if need be and that's not including the feeding they do on the ones that are too large to hoist. 



Last is this...
"As you mentioned that prey size is correlated with carnivore size, there will be more Leopards above 70 or 80 kg in a place where there are no carnivores than in the plains of Africa or the Tiger dominated jungles of India and Southeast Asia, due to a higher frequency of killing and getting all its nutrition from larger prey"

Again, Lion or Tiger dominated Reserves are also Ungulate dominated reserves, Leopards in C. Africa, S. Africa, E. Africa and GIR are all huge healthy cats, Leopards in Kabini, Kanha, Pench, Panna or Umred are all huge as well, showing once again that even in Lion or Tiger dominated areas, Leopards thrive and produce large cats.

Wouldn't they have confirmed with the zoo he was caught in?

Anyway, the Leopard in Bilaspur was the longest, not the heaviest.

Gir leopards in lion infested territories don't touch adult sambar either:

 

Quote:It contrasted findings of the study reported avoidance of sambar instead of constituting the largest proportion of the diet of leopard [1]. Although scat analysis does not provide information on age and sex of prey consumed but can be suspected of yearling and faun age in case of large-sized prey consumed by leopards (Pers. Obs.).High consumption of langur occurred cause of arboreality and crypticity of leopards where they can consume its food without fear of coexisting competitor [5]. Although, it was reported as an alternative preferable prey of leopards in case of prey scarcity [51] which contrasted to our findings in presence of abundant potential prey species. Selection of peafowl or other supplementary small to smaller prey taxa seems reasonable for energy gain per hunting efforts, maximize the resource leopard has for survival when lost immediate hunting to lion [6]. 

https://www.idosi.org/wjz/wjz12(4)17/1.pdf


Also, it seems Persian Leopards may actually beat the Kruger Leopards in size, meaning there may be either a higher base average or at least more larger individuals.

Also, why are you boasting about leopards lifting prey up tree? Isn't that an innate ability for a leopard to lift kills up trees, but some Leopards do it more due to more competition?

Aren't Sambar way above 100 kg (as in close to the size of certain elk subspecies)? Lovari mentioned the 100 kg thing, but my point was large ungulates that Leopards usually avoid due to other competition, which actually made the Indian researchers doubt their capabilities in some of the studies I posted.

No offence but its sounds like you are trying to bolster your favorite subspecies.

Pckts Wrote:Where did I say persians arent the largest sub species? The fact is that Leopards from C/S/E Africa all have cats who've scored higher and weighed equal, hence they grow as large just not as often

Pckts Wrote:the fact that large leopards thrive in high lion density and benefit from the massive amount of prey, even juvenile prey offer larger weights than the averages taken anywhere else.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(05-15-2019, 06:50 AM)Styx38 Wrote: @Pckts 


"Where did you get that Leopards dont hunt Sambar in the GIR?"


Why do you ignore all the sources that I post? Those were juveniles.

"It contrasted findings of the study reported avoidance of sambar instead of constituting the largest proportion of the diet of leopard [1]. Although scat analysis does not provide information on age and sex of prey consumed but can be suspected of yearling and faun age in case of large-sized prey consumed by leopards (Pers. Obs.)."


Even the source you mentioned has one juvenile sambar that was killed by a leopard 


"And which sub species would that be exactly?"

Obviously Anderson's group: African Savanna Leopard. Are you playing games with me?

Pckts Wrote:Where did I say persians arent the largest sub species? The fact is that Leopards from C/S/E Africa all have cats who've scored higher and weighed equal, hence they grow as large just not as often

You finally understood what I was stating. There is a higher frequency of larger Leopards in  areas where they are the apex predators, like the Persian

Pckts Wrote:the fact that large leopards thrive in high lion density and benefit from the massive amount of prey, even juvenile prey offer larger weights than the averages taken anywhere else.

They don't live like the king since their kills can still be stolen from trees. 

Not to mention, they can't freely eat their large meals. If this was in the plains, by now hyenas and lions would be on the carcass:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Pckts Wrote:First it was "leopards dont kill sambar" then it was "leopards dont kill Sambar in the gir" now its "all sambar killed in gir are juveniles" 

Quote:I've already posted predation on adult Sambar, the study was conducted by scat and kill site and Sambar is the 2nd most frequent prey item. You claiming them all to be sub adult is unfounded. The study only says that kill sites didnt have an adult Sambar but the scat samples contained Sambar as the 2nd highest valuation and considering out of the 50+ sites only 16 were fresh, even that is hardly conclusive.

Pckts Wrote:Your claim about my favorite sub species is ridiculous, it's a childish notion. When someone disagrees with you it's not always because they are bias, considering I've shown numerous measurements, given exames and posted data I'd say it's coming from a place of science and not blind loyalty. I'd also say I've earned the benefit of the doubt and I'm sure most here would agree. 

Quote:You think all Leopards take their kills up a tree?
Leopards eat off the ground all the time, the plains dont just have trees like the forest of India, they are spread out and can be quite far from each other. Leopards make kills that sometimes arent near a tree or too big to haul so they drag it to a hidden spot and they consume it. Sometimes they are ran off, sometimes they hold their ground, sometimes they eat in piece, etc. But the fact remains, the only reason they compete against all these other predators is because the prey biomass is so high.

*This image is copyright of its original author

(05-16-2019, 01:52 AM)Styx38 Wrote:

Pckts Wrote:First it was "leopards dont kill sambar" then it was "leopards dont kill Sambar in the gir" now its "all sambar killed in gir are juveniles" 

Quote:I've already posted predation on adult Sambar, the study was conducted by scat and kill site and Sambar is the 2nd most frequent prey item. You claiming them all to be sub adult is unfounded. The study only says that kill sites didnt have an adult Sambar but the scat samples contained Sambar as the 2nd highest valuation and considering out of the 50+ sites only 16 were fresh, even that is hardly conclusive.

You didn't read my sources. They point out that the predation on Sambar (in Tiger/Lion habitats) is either low or mainly on juveniles. 

I don't deny the Leopard's capability. The experts stated their doubts.

Pckts Wrote:Your claim about my favorite sub species is ridiculous, it's a childish notion. When someone disagrees with you it's not always because they are bias, considering I've shown numerous measurements, given exames and posted data I'd say it's coming from a place of science and not blind loyalty. I'd also say I've earned the benefit of the doubt and I'm sure most here would agree. 

Quote:You think all Leopards take their kills up a tree?
Leopards eat off the ground all the time, the plains dont just have trees like the forest of India, they are spread out and can be quite far from each other. Leopards make kills that sometimes arent near a tree or too big to haul so they drag it to a hidden spot and they consume it. Sometimes they are ran off, sometimes they hold their ground, sometimes they eat in piece, etc. But the fact remains, the only reason they compete against all these other predators is because the prey biomass is so high.

So you should accept that Persian Leopards produce the biggest individuals, rather than repetitively telling us a lesser amount of Plains Leopards can reach the size.

The tree thing is correlated with competitors, with the most caches occurring in Spotted Hyena Habitat. 

Also, speaking of biodiversity, a predator can still thrive on adequate food source.

For example, the Leopards in Sri Lanka, Central Africa and Iran still have decent food sources. The only difference is that they have no major competitor to usurp their kills, so they can easily make more big kills compared to their Savanna counterparts.

For example, the leopards in the Congo have been known to kill adult Okapi, at least more frequently than Savanna Leopards have been known to take on adult zebra.
There are some occasional instances of plains leopards killing something as big animals like adult zebra, but that is quite rare, while there were many more observations and records of Rainforest Leopards taking down similar sized Okapi despite being lesser studied, documented and photographed.
Same thing with Persian leopards and adult Maral deer and Sri Lankan Leopard with Sambar deer (or an Indian Leopard and Sambar deer in Tiger-less habitat).

The point is the frequency of larger kills may correlate with higher frequency of larger males, as can be seen with Persian Leopards.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author