(06-22-2020, 07:15 AM)peterThank you for your long and detail reply. I will search and read the article, old captive male Amur tiger in a Japanese zoo. If it is a Java tiger, out of the blue, I will keep it. It is a pity that I only little information(Indian tiger) from the man give me it, but if I have new information, i will supplement in here in the future.The following are my measurements, please(if where one need to measure extra, let me know) : Wrote: PHANTERA

In order to answer the questions, we need better pictures and accurate measurements. Here's an instruction. 

a - Photographs

1 - A photograph from the side showing the complete skull resting on a flat surface

2 - A photograph from the top down (a bit like the picture you posted, but better)

3 - A photograph from the occiput (the last part of the upper skull) 

4 - A photograph taken from the front (showing the teeth and the rostrum)

Try to reduce the angles, as they often result in distortion (and incorrect conclusions). When you take pictures of the occiput, remember it's about the shape of the occiput seen from above and from behind.   

b - Measurements

We need accurate measurements of the upper skull. In order to do it right, you have to remove the mandibula. Only use the upper skull. Every measurement has to be taken in a straight line from tip to tip: 

5 - A measurement from the tip of the maxillary bone (not including the incisors) to the tip of the occiput (greatest total length)

6 - A tip-to-tip measurement of the arches at the point of greatest width (zygomatic width)

7 - A measurement of the rostrum (the bone just above the upper canines)

In order to assist, I scanned the picture you posted and added numbers (1 = greatest total length, 2 = greatest width and 3 = rostrum width):

*This image is copyright of its original author

 

c - Conclusions for now

1 - The sagittal crest isn't straight. The skull has a lot of superfluous growths. The skull is asymmetrical and quite fragile. The upper canines are fragile as well. My guess is the skull belonged to a tiger born and raised in captivity, most probably a male. All sutures are closed, meaning the tiger was adult.  

2 - The shape of the nasal bones, the eye-sockets, the arches and, in particular, the occiput (relatively long, narrow and triangular at the tip) suggest the owner of the skull could have been a Java tiger.  

3 - Wild male Indian tigers average about 350 mm. in greatest total skull length, whereas wild male Java tigers average about 325 mm. A large male Java tiger could get close to the length of an average male Indian tiger.  

d - History

In order to answer all questions, contact the one who sold you the cast. Ask him to tell you anything he knows (what facility, when, subspecies, age, disease and photographs). The more you know, the better. If you know more, try to contact the director of the facility (or the keeper). 

As to the shape of the upper canines. In the tiger extinction thread, an article was posted about an old captive male Amur tiger in a Japanese zoo. The tiger had similar upper canines. I don't know when the article was posted, meaning you're on your own here (it's a long thread).   

Wild adult male Indian tigers (Panthera tigris tigris) have longer skulls than adult wild male Java tigers, but individual variation in wild tigers usually is quite pronounced. Skulls of captive tigers usually are shorter and, in particular, wider. In zoo cats, however, anything is possible.   

If you have time, measure the height (or depth). Place the skull on a flat surface and measure the distance between the bottom and the top in a straight line. If possible, also weigh the skull (lower and upper jaw separately). 

If it is the skull of a (large) Java tiger, my advice is to keep it.

(06-24-2020, 10:26 AM)Panthera Wrote: This unknown canine fossil from North-east China(upper left canine?). It's length is 112 mm totally, and the crown length is 40mm(inside) and 45mm(outside).

According to the size, and it has vertical groove(bleeding groove), so it is big cat, right? tiger? But after I read this section, I find Amur tiger's canine crown can reach 70cm, or maybe it is younger or female individual....; If this canine belong to leopard or jaguar, it's size seems slightly larger, but this is not necessarily.....   

I think because it is a fossil, we can’t only just look at it from current animal distribution perspective, but also should from the past. 
In the prehistory, It is very likely there were tiger(Amur tiger), leopard(here exist the largest subspecies, Amur leopard), jaguar(prehistoric jaguar may be slightly larger than the current size in America), cave lion, lynx, even the brown bear in there
(I also doubt it is bear canine because it's shape and the radian of crown, but this fossil has a unique trait of big cat, vertical groove).

Any ideas what it is?

PS. In my opinion, I think it is most likely to be a tiger or a bear, but I do not know how to distinguish the canine of both.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(06-26-2020, 08:20 AM)Panthera Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you very much for your reply. It is tiger canine! I thought it is the upper canine, but seems not like at crown's radian.
But, by your pictures, I believe this is the lower canine of tiger. 

How the body size this tiger? 
Can estimate this skull length or body size by this crown length to compare with known data between crown and skull?

(06-26-2020, 08:20 AM)Panthera Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you very much for your reply. It is tiger canine! I thought it is the upper canine, but seems not like at crown's radian.
But, by your pictures, I believe this is the lower canine of tiger. 

How the body size this tiger? 
Can estimate this skull length or body size by this crown length to compare with known data between crown and skull?

(06-26-2020, 11:01 AM)tigerluver Wrote:

(06-26-2020, 08:20 AM)Panthera Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thank you very much for your reply. It is tiger canine! I thought it is the upper canine, but seems not like at crown's radian.
But, by your pictures, I believe this is the lower canine of tiger. 

How the body size this tiger? 
Can estimate this skull length or body size by this crown length to compare with known data between crown and skull?

I can estimate the size for you from the skulls I measured. Could you please measure the crown diameter lateromedially (LM) and antero-posteriorly (AP)? I've attached a guide on where and how to measure the diameter. Measure the AP diameter as shown. The LM diameter is the diameter perpendicular to that (width of the tooth). Also to have the in situ crown height, could you please measure the crown height from where I have marked the AP diameter.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Will try to have some more writeup on it tomorrow. Thank you for sharing!

(06-26-2020, 11:49 AM)Panthera Wrote: @tigerluver 

Thank you for your help! Is the site like this? I am looking forward your reply


About this lower canine measurements:

AP diameter is 30.66~31.00 mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

lateromedially (LM) diameter is 21.54mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

in situ crown height(inside) is 53.13mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

in situ crown height(outside) is 52.50mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

in situ crown height(apex to central of the AP diameter) is 51.44mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

 
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PS. crown height (central of the alveolar margin to the apex) is 46.03mm

*This image is copyright of its original author

• The preservation is similar to that of Siberian peatland P. spelaea finds such as this skull and this lower canine:
  

• Next, the root of the canine. Often, ancient lion lower canines have thin roots. However, it is not impossible for them to have thick roots as seen in this European cave lion specimen. This is essentially not strong evidence for P. spelaea classification but rather evidence against ruling out P. spelaea as the owner. I made this very crude comparison in gimp with the canines scaled to about the same height.:
  

• Referring back to the above image, it is more common for tigers to have wide roots than cave lions. Thus, probability-wise more likely to be a tiger.
• The canine is actually quite tall. From the big cat family, tigers have disproportionately tall and often similarly wide canines. At 112.74 mm high and 31 m x 21 mm in diameter, the canine is larger than the largest P. atrox. So either the canine is from an exceptional cave lion or large tiger. By probability, it's more likely to be a large tiger than a one in thousands cave lion.
• Finally, the coloration and preservation of the canine actually matches quite well with this Szechuan giant tiger skull. Focus on the patterns and coloration of the teeth and compare it to the enamel of the canine we are discussing: