(09-03-2018, 12:57 PM)Vegeta San Wrote: @peter can i ask you why my replies are not appearing here? 

Did I done anything wrong? I don't think I was. This is a argument right, i know the forum rules and regulations. I didn't surpassed that. 

But then, why my replies getting disappeared?

(04-19-2018, 06:10 AM)peter Wrote: BETTY

Good find. Your post might have an unexpected effect.

Before continuing, I want to offer my sympathy to the relatives of the 43-year old keeper of the Cologne zoo. Although she had plenty of experience, she apparently made a mistake and paid the ultimate price.

1 - THE TIGER

Male Amur tiger 'Altai' was 4 years of age when he was shot by zoo director Theo Pagel after he had killed the zoo keeper. The tiger had been moved to Cologne in April 2011 to meet 'Hanya', a tigress from a French facility. The meeting had an effect, as 'Hanya' gave birth to 3 cubs.

2 - AUTOPSY REPORT

An interdisciplinry team, consisting of a veterinarian pathologist, a forensic pathologist and autopsy technicians, performed an autopsy on tiger 'Altai'. The tiger measured 240 cm. from nose to tail root. The tail measured 96,5 cm. The length of the canines ranged between 35 and 70 mm.

The total length of the tiger was 336,5 cm. (11 feet and about half an inch), that is. Very long, even for a male Amur tiger. The question is in what way he was measured.

Dr. P. van Bree of the former Zoological Museum of Amsterdam told me he measured big cats in a straight line ('between pegs'). Dr. D. Morike of the Staatliches Museum fur Naturkunde Stuttgart also told me that big cats should be measured in that way. As tiger 'Altai' was measured by, or in the presence of, a veterinarian pathologist and a forensic pathologist, I assume that the tiger was measured in the correct way: in a straight line.

This means that the tiger was almost as long as the record tiger shot in northern India in the late sixties of the previous century. That male, at 11.1 in total length measured in a straight line and 11.7 'over curves', is the longest I know of.

3 - SKULL

Good photographs of big cat skulls are few and far between. Betty's post has three, of which two will be used in this post. Both photographs have scales. Here they are again (sorry about the notes I made):

*This image is copyright of its original author

It is about the scale used in the two photographs. It's the same scale, I think. The length of the longest wing is 10 cm. The short wing is 5 cm. I'll start with the first photograph.

3a - Photograph 1

This photograph shows the canines and the rostrum. The scales enables a few measurements. I measured the width of the rostrum and the length of the left upper canine (from the tip to the insertion). 

How did I get to a measurement in both cases? I first printed the photograph and measured the length of the long side of the scale. We know that the long wing has a length of 10 cm. In the print, the long wing isn't 10, but 5,20 cm. (520 to make things easy). The width of the rostrum (referring to the print) is 6,50 cm. (650). In order to find the real width of the rostrum, we have to divide 650 by 520, knowing that 520 is 10,00 cm. The result is 1,25. This means that the rostrum is about 125,00 mm. Never saw a rostrum that wide. The length of the left upper canine (measured in a straight line from the tip to the insertion) is 79,80 mm. Also the longest I saw.

3b - Photograph 2

Another excellent photograph showing the skull with a scale. It's the same scale used in the first photograph. The scale, however, poses a problem. We know the long wing is exactly 10 cm., but what about the width of the short part that is added? To keep it short: the scale has a total length of 12,50 cm.

As for the printed photograph. On the print, the length of the scale is 275 units (275 in the photograph). The total length of the skull is 950 units. When we divide 950 by 275, the result is 3,4545. In order to get to the real length of the skull, we have to multiply 3,4545 with 12,50. The result is 431,818 mm. for greatest total skull length. Unheard of.

The width at the arches (referring to the print I made) is 625 units (625). If we divide 625 by 275 (the length of the scale), the result is 2,2727. In order to get to the real length, we have to multiply 2,2727 with 12,50. The result is 284,09 mm. Very wide, but not a record. The reason is that the tiger was a young adult.  

I also had another go at the width of the rostrum. This time, the result was 122,72 mm.

3c - To conclude

The scale in the two photographs is of crucial importance. If it would have been 10 cm., the skull would have been slightly below average for males of Panthera tigris altaica. If the scale, however, really is 12,50 cm., the results are staggering. It's the largest tiger skull by quite a margin.

4 -  ALL

As some of you know, I measured many big cat skulls. The longest tiger skull was a bit below 380,00 mm. in greatest total length. There is (referring to Christiansen) some evidence of skulls exceeding 16 inches in greatest total length, but 'some evidence' is very different from a confirmed measurement.

The tiger featuring in this post was 240 cm. in head and body length and had a tail of 96,5 cm., which results in a total length of 336,5 cm. (...). Remarkable, if we consider that the tiger still was a young adult when he was shot. If I'm right, the skull of this male was 431,18 mm. in greatest total length. With a width of 284,09 mm. and a rostrum width of 122,72 mm., the skull is way larger than all other skulls.

Betty. If you give me the coordinates (full text, source, email etc), I will contact one of the writers and, if possible, go to Cologne myself in order to measure the skull. By train, it only is a few hours.

I assume I made a mistake somewhere. If you see errors, let me know. If I avoided them, this most probably is the largest tiger skull ever. By a margin.

As to the possibility of a tiger skull exceeding 16 inches in greatest total length. There are quite a few tigers exceeding 600 pounds in captivity. Some of them have very large skulls. The great majority will never be measured. In Nepal and some parts of India, wild male tigers also exceed 600 pounds at times. Tables with measurements of tiger skulls very often are reproductions of old information. I do not doubt that large skulls can exceed 16 inches in greatest total length. 

Here's the second photograph again: if I'm right (depends on the scale at the bottom left), this skull has a greatest total length of about 430,00 mm., a zygomatic width of 284 mm. and a rostrum width exceeding 122 mm.: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

(09-11-2018, 11:39 AM)johnny rex Wrote: Not sure which one is the right pic, I posted the pictures awhile ago here. But I guess the second picture.

(09-13-2018, 12:43 AM)peter Wrote: A BIT MORE ON AMUR TIGER ALTAI OF THE KOLN ZOO

a - Introduction

This thread is about wild tigers. Every now and then, however, captive tigers are discussed. The reason captive tiger Altai qualified, is the article posted by Betty some time ago. The article has a few photographs of the skull of the tiger. It could be the largest I know of.

In this post, a few questions regarding the tiger and the skull will be addressed. I found a bit more on the tiger and decided it should be posted.

b - Guate's post

Tiger Altai made headlines some six years ago. On August 25, 2012, he killed his keeper. The director of the Koln zoo, Theo Pagel, shot the tiger immediately after he had been informed. About a year later, another keeper was killed by a captive male Amur tiger in Munster, also in Germany.

In the article posted by Betty, both cases are discussed. The tiger from the Munster zoo wasn't shot. Tiger Altai was. During the autopsy, he was measured by two pathologists. His total length was 336,5 cm. (head and body 240 cm. - tail 96,5 cm.). 

The article has no information about the method used to measure the tiger. It also has no information about his weight. In one of the countless newspaper reports I read, Altai was said to weigh 300 kg. (662 pounds). My guess is it was an estimate.  
 
In another thread, I asked Guate about his opinion on the tiger and the skull. Guate, using a photograph showing both the tiger and his keeper, concluded the tiger appeared to be shorter than 336,5 cm. in total length. He thought the tiger most probably had been measured 'over curves'. He also had doubts about the (alleged) size of the skull.

In his opinion, the tiger measured by V. Mazak in the Prague zoo is the longest. Measured 'between pegs', he was 319 cm. Measured 'over curves', he was 337 cm. That tiger had a head length of 45 cm. and a greatest total skull length of 371 mm. His son 'Benjamin' was 298 cm. when he died at age 7. Although he had a shorter head (42 cm.), his skull (377 mm.) was longer a bit longer (V. Mazak, 'Der Tiger', 1983, pp. 185-193).
    
c - Size of tiger Altai of the Koln zoo

- Tiger Altai was born in Howletts Wild Animal Park, Kent (UK) in August 2008. In April 2011, when he was 2 years and 9 months, he was moved to the Koln Zoo. He and tigress 'Hanya', born in the African Safari Park in Plaisance-du-Touche (Toulouse), France, mated in July 2011, when 'Altai' was 2 years and 11 months of age. After 109 days, 4 cubs were born. One of the cubs died after 6 days. Tiger Altai was shot on August 25, 2012, when he was just about 4 years of age.

Tiger Altai never reached his full size, that is. Immature male tigers do not add a foot in length in 15 months (he was 2 years and 9 months when he was moved to Koln and shot at age 4), but they keep growing in length, even after reaching adulthood. The Sauraha tiger added 8 cm. in head and body length when he was an adult. It's very likely that the Koln zoo tiger, not even a young adult when he arrived in Koln, also added at least 8 cm. during his stay in Koln, meaby a bit more.

- You can find a lot of photographs and videos of Altai on the internet. Most were posted halfway 2011, when he was younger than 3. I don't know when the photograph of Altai and his keeper was taken, but one has to remember the tiger was far from adult. 

- Another thing to remember is that his keeper was standing behind glass. Talking distortion here.  

- Compared to the tigers I saw, Altai was a bit more robust. He also had a large skull. I've seen larger Amur tigers, but in my opinion Altai was a large tiger.  

- The tiger was measured by, or in the presence of, two pathologists. In Germany, accuracy is much appreciated. If the article says the tiger was 336,5 cm. in total length, chances are he really was 336,5 cm. The question is in what way he was measured. All German biologists I met, told me big cats should be measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). It could be some of them adopted the method now used by field biologists ('over curves'), but my guess is most of them measure big cats in a straight line.
   
- V. Mazak was one of the very few who measured tigers himself. He also informed his readers. The longest he measured was 319 cm. in total length 'between pegs' . Directly after death, he was 192 kg. In his prime, the tiger might have exceeded 250 kg. A large tiger without doubt, but heavier individuals have been recorded in captivity and I also saw males exceeding that length. The general public doesn't know, because captive tigers are seldom, if ever, measured. Same, by the way, for all other captive big cats. A shame, but there you have it.

I'm not saying many of us underestimate the size of captive Amur tigers, but I'm sure an average captive male (referring to European zoos) is longer, taller and heavier than an average wild Amur tiger. In my opinion, the 3 captive male Amur tigers I measured (9.5 'between pegs') were shorter than average. This also was the opinion of the director of the facility. Based on what I have, I'd say an average adult captive male in Europe ranges between 9.5-9.10 in total length in a straight line. Measured 'over curves', they would range between 10.0-10.6. Some individuals no doubt exceed 11.0. In my opinion, tiger Altai was a bit larger than average.

d - Skull

The article posted by Betty had a few photographs of the skull of tiger Altai. Every photograph has a scale, enabling those interested to get to a number of estimates. The accuracy of the estimates depends on the quality of the photographs. I visited a photographer. In his opinion, the photographs were made by a pro. Distortion can never be avoided, but chances are it will be quite limited.

I propose to start with the photograph of the teeth. The scale is very close to the skull, meaning the degree of distortion is very limited:

*This image is copyright of its original author

After different attempts, I concluded the rostrum has a width of 121-122 mm. Well over average, that is. We now move to the photograph of the skull:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The photograph also has a scale (bottom left), but it isn't needed to get to a good estimate of the greatest total length. The reason is the previous photograph enabled us to get to get to a good estimate of the rostrum width. If we know the rostrum width, we should be able to get to a good estimate on the greatest total skull length.

After different attempts, I concluded the skull is about 3,5 times the size of the rostrum. This results in a greatest total skull length of about 424-425 mm. We can also use the scale in the photograph to get to an estimate. The average of 3 attempts is 430-431 mm. Distortionwise, the first estimate (based on the rostrum width) is more reliable. 

The question now is to what degree the angle affected the first, more reliable, estimate. My guess is 5-10 mm., meaby a trifle more. This means the skull has a greatest total length of 410-420 mm.  

The longest skulls of captive male Amur tigers measured by a biologist range between 380-406 mm. The skull of Altai, most probably, is considerably longer. The only way to find out more about the size of the tiger and the skull is to contact the writers of the article. Another option is to visit Koln and measure the skull myself.  

e - Videos

e1 - This video was posted in late May 2011, when Altai was 2 years and 9 months of age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkje-9ZjGP8

e2 - Another video posted in June, 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRwrqw7-Qlg

e3 - A video about the accident (English subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXhb2YqaWNU

f - About August 25, 2012

Here's something I found a few days ago. Use the translator, as in German: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

(09-13-2018, 12:43 AM)peter Wrote: A BIT MORE ON AMUR TIGER ALTAI OF THE KOLN ZOO

a - Introduction

This thread is about wild tigers. Every now and then, however, captive tigers are discussed. The reason captive tiger Altai qualified, is the article posted by Betty some time ago. The article has a few photographs of the skull of the tiger. It could be the largest I know of.

In this post, a few questions regarding the tiger and the skull will be addressed. I found a bit more on the tiger and decided it should be posted.

b - Guate's post

Tiger Altai made headlines some six years ago. On August 25, 2012, he killed his keeper. The director of the Koln zoo, Theo Pagel, shot the tiger immediately after he had been informed. About a year later, another keeper was killed by a captive male Amur tiger in Munster, also in Germany.

In the article posted by Betty, both cases are discussed. The tiger from the Munster zoo wasn't shot. Tiger Altai was. During the autopsy, he was measured by two pathologists. His total length was 336,5 cm. (head and body 240 cm. - tail 96,5 cm.). 

The article has no information about the method used to measure the tiger. It also has no information about his weight. In one of the countless newspaper reports I read, Altai was said to weigh 300 kg. (662 pounds). My guess is it was an estimate.  
 
In another thread, I asked Guate about his opinion on the tiger and the skull. Guate, using a photograph showing both the tiger and his keeper, concluded the tiger appeared to be shorter than 336,5 cm. in total length. He thought the tiger most probably had been measured 'over curves'. He also had doubts about the (alleged) size of the skull.

In his opinion, the tiger measured by V. Mazak in the Prague zoo is the longest. Measured 'between pegs', he was 319 cm. Measured 'over curves', he was 337 cm. That tiger had a head length of 45 cm. and a greatest total skull length of 371 mm. His son 'Benjamin' was 298 cm. when he died at age 7. Although he had a shorter head (42 cm.), his skull (377 mm.) was longer a bit longer (V. Mazak, 'Der Tiger', 1983, pp. 185-193).
    
c - Size of tiger Altai of the Koln zoo

- Tiger Altai was born in Howletts Wild Animal Park, Kent (UK) in August 2008. In April 2011, when he was 2 years and 9 months, he was moved to the Koln Zoo. He and tigress 'Hanya', born in the African Safari Park in Plaisance-du-Touche (Toulouse), France, mated in July 2011, when 'Altai' was 2 years and 11 months of age. After 109 days, 4 cubs were born. One of the cubs died after 6 days. Tiger Altai was shot on August 25, 2012, when he was just about 4 years of age.

Tiger Altai never reached his full size, that is. Immature male tigers do not add a foot in length in 15 months (he was 2 years and 9 months when he was moved to Koln and shot at age 4), but they keep growing in length, even after reaching adulthood. The Sauraha tiger added 8 cm. in head and body length when he was an adult. It's very likely that the Koln zoo tiger, not even a young adult when he arrived in Koln, also added at least 8 cm. during his stay in Koln, meaby a bit more.

- You can find a lot of photographs and videos of Altai on the internet. Most were posted halfway 2011, when he was younger than 3. I don't know when the photograph of Altai and his keeper was taken, but one has to remember the tiger was far from adult. 

- Another thing to remember is that his keeper was standing behind glass. Talking distortion here.  

- Compared to the tigers I saw, Altai was a bit more robust. He also had a large skull. I've seen larger Amur tigers, but in my opinion Altai was a large tiger.  

- The tiger was measured by, or in the presence of, two pathologists. In Germany, accuracy is much appreciated. If the article says the tiger was 336,5 cm. in total length, chances are he really was 336,5 cm. The question is in what way he was measured. All German biologists I met, told me big cats should be measured in a straight line ('between pegs'). It could be some of them adopted the method now used by field biologists ('over curves'), but my guess is most of them measure big cats in a straight line.
   
- V. Mazak was one of the very few who measured tigers himself. He also informed his readers. The longest he measured was 319 cm. in total length 'between pegs' . Directly after death, he was 192 kg. In his prime, the tiger might have exceeded 250 kg. A large tiger without doubt, but heavier individuals have been recorded in captivity and I also saw males exceeding that length. The general public doesn't know, because captive tigers are seldom, if ever, measured. Same, by the way, for all other captive big cats. A shame, but there you have it.

I'm not saying many of us underestimate the size of captive Amur tigers, but I'm sure an average captive male (referring to European zoos) is longer, taller and heavier than an average wild Amur tiger. In my opinion, the 3 captive male Amur tigers I measured (9.5 'between pegs') were shorter than average. This also was the opinion of the director of the facility. Based on what I have, I'd say an average adult captive male in Europe ranges between 9.5-9.10 in total length in a straight line. Measured 'over curves', they would range between 10.0-10.6. Some individuals no doubt exceed 11.0. In my opinion, tiger Altai was a bit larger than average.

d - Skull

The article posted by Betty had a few photographs of the skull of tiger Altai. Every photograph has a scale, enabling those interested to get to a number of estimates. The accuracy of the estimates depends on the quality of the photographs. I visited a photographer. In his opinion, the photographs were made by a pro. Distortion can never be avoided, but chances are it will be quite limited.

I propose to start with the photograph of the teeth. The scale is very close to the skull, meaning the degree of distortion is very limited:

*This image is copyright of its original author

After different attempts, I concluded the rostrum has a width of 121-122 mm. Well over average, that is. We now move to the photograph of the skull:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The photograph also has a scale (bottom left), but it isn't needed to get to a good estimate of the greatest total length. The reason is the previous photograph enabled us to get to get to a good estimate of the rostrum width. If we know the rostrum width, we should be able to get to a good estimate on the greatest total skull length.

After different attempts, I concluded the skull is about 3,5 times the size of the rostrum. This results in a greatest total skull length of about 424-425 mm. We can also use the scale in the photograph to get to an estimate. The average of 3 attempts is 430-431 mm. Distortionwise, the first estimate (based on the rostrum width) is more reliable. 

The question now is to what degree the angle affected the first, more reliable, estimate. My guess is 5-10 mm., meaby a trifle more. This means the skull has a greatest total length of 410-420 mm.  

The longest skulls of captive male Amur tigers measured by a biologist range between 380-406 mm. The skull of Altai, most probably, is considerably longer. The only way to find out more about the size of the tiger and the skull is to contact the writers of the article. Another option is to visit Koln and measure the skull myself.  

e - Videos

e1 - This video was posted in late May 2011, when Altai was 2 years and 9 months of age: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkje-9ZjGP8

e2 - Another video posted in June, 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRwrqw7-Qlg

e3 - A video about the accident (English subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXhb2YqaWNU

f - About August 25, 2012

Here's something I found a few days ago. Use the translator, as in German: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author