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+----- Thread: Bear Strength (/topic-bear-strength)
RE: Bear Strength - Shadow - 12-26-2018
Here one quite good video of running bear. Clearly there is speed, but also some stamina. So if wanting to outrun a bear, better have both too
Here another, and notice that even though not running full speed, quite fast all the time and speeding up in the end after crossing road. That video can be watched only in youtube, so only link here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgJ26jnweas&feature=player_embedded
And here at 1:00-1:20 looks like running pretty much as fast as it can. Then again 4:00-4:20 another bear going fast. So if someone thinks, that bear is some slow clumsy teddy bear.... also look how that bear handles that bison calf, it is like a rag doll there when bear clearly wants to disable it fast while looking what mother bison is going to do.
I think, that these are good examples to show a little bit more about a bear than Winnie the Pooh cartoons... When needed, bear hunts.
RE: Bear Strength - Panther - 12-26-2018
(12-26-2018, 09:08 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here one quite good video of running bear. Clearly there is speed, but also some stamina. So if wanting to outrun a bear, better have both too
Here another, and notice that even though not running full speed, quite fast all the time and speeding up in the end after crossing road.
And here at 1:00-1:20 looks like running pretty much as fast as it can. Then again 4:00-4:20 another bear going fast. So if someone thinks, that bear is some slow clumsy teddy bear.... also look how that bear handles that bison calf, it is like a rag doll there when bear clearly wants to disable it fast while looking what mother bison is going to do.
I think, that these are good examples to show a little bit more about a bear than Winnie the Pooh cartoons... When needed, bear hunts
The last video is remarkable for bear's stamina and long runs!
RE: Bear Strength - Polar - 12-26-2018
(12-20-2018, 03:25 AM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to article in digital version of finnish science magazine. This is from section, where people can send questions and then they get answers from specialists. Anyway most people here don´t understand a word from that text, so I put here a short summary. Someone has made a question, that how much could a bear bench press? Person answering to question is Heidi Kinnunen, who has doctoral degree in zoology. She is quite well known animal expert in Finland and can be found from University of Helsinki.
She tells, that compared to ordinary human, bear has very strong muscles what comes to forelimbs, pecs and shoulders. Even cubs have been observed to flip easily flat stones weighing 140 kg (about 309 lbs). In fight a bear can lift with forelimbs another bear which has thrown itself over it. Then she tells, that canadian researchers recommend, that when bear is wanted to catch alive with a rope to leg, there should be used a coil able to withstand force of 16,8 kilonewton, which might be easier to understand if putting figure 1713 kg (3777 lbs).
Then Kinnunen explains, that bench press isn´t for a bear natural thing to do which everyone should understand. Mentioning also, that bears can do kind of pull-ups with branches. Then she does a little comparison to human but final statement from her is conclusion, that what comes to strength, adult bear would be able to bench press at least double of its own body weight.
Here is link to article if someone wants to check and maybe try to learn finnish. If you try to use google translator..... good luck. Finnish-english translations are nightmares/torture for anyone trying
https://www.tiede.fi/artikkeli/kysy/paljonko_karhu_nostaisi_penkista
Here is some info about Kinnunen: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Heidi_Kinnunen
Her credentials (from ResearchGate link) seem more suited to ecological preservation and habitat-related relationships rather than on animal morphology.
But even if the study is possibly faked or simply not publicly released in an academic institution, the videos and some of the evidence gathered so far tell me that there might be a middle ground here. If a bear can "bench" at least twice his weight (and without even training for it), we as normal humans would have to put many times the effort to get to even get close to that point.
In my powerlifting years, it took me three years to get my bench up to 355-pounds at the age of 18, and I was 215-pounds heavy at the time. Imagine being a 175-pound bear and benching that outright, lol. That would be a huge difference if true.
RE: Bear Strength - Shadow - 12-26-2018
(12-26-2018, 11:05 PM)Polar Wrote:(12-20-2018, 03:25 AM)Shadow Wrote: This link is to article in digital version of finnish science magazine. This is from section, where people can send questions and then they get answers from specialists. Anyway most people here don´t understand a word from that text, so I put here a short summary. Someone has made a question, that how much could a bear bench press? Person answering to question is Heidi Kinnunen, who has doctoral degree in zoology. She is quite well known animal expert in Finland and can be found from University of Helsinki.
She tells, that compared to ordinary human, bear has very strong muscles what comes to forelimbs, pecs and shoulders. Even cubs have been observed to flip easily flat stones weighing 140 kg (about 309 lbs). In fight a bear can lift with forelimbs another bear which has thrown itself over it. Then she tells, that canadian researchers recommend, that when bear is wanted to catch alive with a rope to leg, there should be used a coil able to withstand force of 16,8 kilonewton, which might be easier to understand if putting figure 1713 kg (3777 lbs).
Then Kinnunen explains, that bench press isn´t for a bear natural thing to do which everyone should understand. Mentioning also, that bears can do kind of pull-ups with branches. Then she does a little comparison to human but final statement from her is conclusion, that what comes to strength, adult bear would be able to bench press at least double of its own body weight.
Here is link to article if someone wants to check and maybe try to learn finnish. If you try to use google translator..... good luck. Finnish-english translations are nightmares/torture for anyone trying
https://www.tiede.fi/artikkeli/kysy/paljonko_karhu_nostaisi_penkista
Here is some info about Kinnunen: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Heidi_Kinnunen
Her credentials (from ResearchGate link) seem more suited to ecological preservation and habitat-related relationships rather than on animal morphology.
But even if the study is possibly faked or simply not publicly released in an academic institution, the videos and some of the evidence gathered so far tell me that there might be a middle ground here. If a bear can "bench" at least twice his weight (and without even training for it), we as normal humans would have to put many times the effort to get to even get close to that point.
In my powerlifting years, it took me three years to get my bench up to 355-pounds at the age of 18, and I was 215-pounds heavy at the time. Imagine being a 175-pound bear and benching that outright, lol. That would be a huge difference if true.
Some people say, that gorilla has strong forearms because it uses them when walking... and climbing. Bears as many other animals walk all the time on all fours, then they dig, climb, flip rocks.... so I guess, that training is natural part of their life. As to so many other animals too.
What comes to Kinnunen, I think that she has done some research and discussed with other experts before giving estimations. She has some reputation to maintain, so I think, that she is quite careful what she writes. Of course that is one estimation as usual in these cases. I have considered to ask from her, that to what she based that estimation. It is clear, that she has been discussing with other animal experts and done some research, because she knew some canadian recommendations.
What comes to your results, I would be only surprised if you would able to be trained to be stronger than a bear, that bear is stronger than you is quite normal, no matter how much you train
But I think, that she meant more adult bears and their power levels even though also cubs are known to be quite strong.
RE: Bear Strength - Polar - 12-26-2018
(12-26-2018, 11:32 PM)Shadow Wrote: What comes to your results, I would be only surprised if you would able to be trained to be stronger than a bear, that bear is stronger than you is quite normal, no matter how much you train
Yeah, I don't ever think I will be as strong as even a small bear no matter how hard I or any other human can train. They are literally evolved for strength, whereas the hominid line has become weaker and weaker for millions of years, until now, where even the strongest of men today may only be as strong as an average Neanderthal.
Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - Panther - 12-30-2018
Today I'm gonna reveal the truth about the strength of tigers and bears. The truth, that opposes the common beliefs of both educated and uneducated people online.
What is strength?
Strength is broken down to two different types.
1- Bone strength
2- Muscle strength (or muscular strength).
Bone strength is nothing but bone density or bone mineral density.
The denser bone is simply the stronger bone. I hope many of you know that.
In this aspect, we don't know who had the denser bones than the others. But you'll find the answers throughout this thread.
Muscular strength refers to the amount of force a muscle can produce and is usually measured by the maximum amount of force a muscle can produce in a single effort (maximal effort).
Muscular strength differs from muscular endurance.
Fat isn't strength!
Brown bears contain 40% of body fat.
"Bears have evolved mechanisms to
tolerate obesity, and do not develop adverse health consequences despite storing massive amounts of body fat"
"Grizzly bears given ad libitum access to lipids, carbohydrates, and
protein chose a fall diet in which lipids provided 73% ± 3% of
metabolizable energy (Erlenbach et al. 2014).Grizzly bears often
attain body fat levels of 30%–40% in autumn that are considered
“obese to morbidly obese” by human standards (AACE/ACE Obesity
Task Force 1998; Grundy 2004)."
"Together these results suggest
that bears have experienced extensive evolutionary selection to
accumulate large amounts of fat to survive hibernation while
remaining healthy and reproductively active (LeBlanc et al. 2001;
Robbins et al. 2012; Viscarra and Ortiz 2013; Lopez-Alfaro et al.
2013)."
Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.biol.uw.edu.pl/zfz/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bears-not-bothered-by-diet-high-in-saturated-fats-art1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwipxv7TyMffAhUJ3Y8KHRJdDwAQFjAIegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1XKDGz1kZBNH-X3nK4Hwbb
While that of tigers is roughly around 10% of their body weight.
Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalvsanimal/viewtopic.php%3ft=70&=1
Let's reduce the body fat and other materials like fur coat, paw pads and claws to get real mass of both species.
The other materials like fur coats and paw pads are indeed heavier in brown bears than that of tigers.Look at the picture below.
This is a tiger paw pad..
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is another image.
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is a Grizzly paw pad...
*This image is copyright of its original author
Claws of Grizzly..
*This image is copyright of its original author
Fur coat of Grizzly/Brown bears.
*This image is copyright of its original author
That of tigers.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You can see, bear got these heavier than tiger.
But let's say, both got these weigh about 10% of their body weight.
Reducing these along with body fat.
The average Kodiak bear is 835lbs.
835 - 40% -10% = 835 - 50% = 417.5 lbs of bone and muscle mass for Brown bear.
The average Bengal tiger is 495lbs.
495 -10% -10%= 495 - 20% = 396lbs of bone and muscle mass for Tiger.
The Brown bear got 21.5lbs of bone and muscle mass over tiger on average.
But that doesn't mean it's stronger than tigers.
To confirm muscular strength, you have to take a look at muscle fibers.
Brown bears contain almost 70% of slow twitch muscle fibers
*This image is copyright of its original author
Source: Muscle mass and muscular force analysis in brown bears of varying
ages
Dr. MartinAndrews of Michigan State University (Prof. of Zoology, M.Sc. in Zoology, 1989)
While tigers (just like other bigcats) contain more amount of fast twitch muscle fibers
"Recent investigations have shown that the vastus lateralis and longissimus lumborum muscles of feline predators (lion and caracal) exhibit a predominance of type IIX muscle fibres (>50%), with high glycolytic but relatively poor oxidative capacity (as revealed by their oxidative capacities – i.e. NADH stain, and CS and 3HAD activities) (Kohn et al., 2011b). Similar large quantities of type IIX fibres were found in tiger and cheetah muscle (Williams et al., 1997; Hyatt et al., 2010)."
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3597281/
"The largest felid species, the tiger, contained a mixture of fiber types, but a high percentage of IIx fibers were still present in the limb muscles (Hyatt et al., 2010). The
requirement of some fibers for endurance may be as a result of the larger felids’ hunting strategies. Whereas the caracal and cheetah rely on speed of attack, lion (and possible tigers) often require a
combination of power and endurance to hold on to larger prey. This form of attack may continue for prolonged periods, hence the requirement also for some type IIa fibers."
Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ac79/1678be8cd2026ef5ff55221e2db137e8a2ee.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiUwub7wcffAhUDo48KHUWkBUYQFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw20UObj1ui_7AUBryPRQ7Qg
The type I(slow twitch) muscle fibers aren't strength related fibers. They are known for endurance.
While type II(fast twitch) muscle fibers are very famous for strength.
Here's some explaination about it...
"Many people desire a specific outcome from their workouts but unknowingly perform a workout that is contrary to their goals. For example, the marathon runner who wants to go the distance but packs on too much muscle to be light on his feet. If you've got goals but you aren't sure how to get there, understanding the difference between muscular strength and muscular endurance will help you devise the proper resistance-training plan.
Definitions
Muscular endurance refers to the ability to perform a specific muscular action for a prolonged period of time. For example, your ability to run a marathon or to pump out 50 body weight squats is a product of good muscular endurance. You also use muscular endurance in your daily life when you rake leaves or walk up long flights of stairs.
Muscular strength is a muscle’s capacity to exert brute force against resistance. Your ability to bench press a barbell weighing 200 lbs. for one repetition is a measure of your muscular strength. In daily life, you need muscular strength to pick up a heavy box.
Muscle Composition
Muscles are made up of different types of fibers called slow twitch -- or type 1 -- and fast twitch -- or type 2. Slow twitch fibers are responsible for endurance -- the ability to go long on a treadmill or cycle. Fast twitch fibers come in two types -- A and B. Type A are involved in both power and endurance -- for example, the ability to endure a long sprint or carry a heavy object across the room -- while type B are recruited for short, explosive moves, such as jumping or heaving a very heavy weight.
Training Applications
The proportion of muscle fiber types you have is largely determined by genetics. If you have a predomination of slow twitch fibers, you are better adapted to muscular endurance, able to perform long cardio sessions. A person with more fast-twitch fibers is more adept at muscular strength -- lifting heavy weights for a few repetitions or performing short bouts of high-intensity exercise.
Even though your genetics are predetermined, you can train to increase muscular strength or endurance. Endurance is trained by lifting lighter weights for a higher number of reps or running longer and longer distances. You can build strength by lifting heavier weights for fewer reps and doing short, powerful sprints. The range for building muscular endurance is typically 12 to 25 reps, and the range for building strength is one to eight."
https://www.livestrong.com/article/154326-the-difference-between-muscular-strength-muscular-endurance/
Of course fast twitch fibers are also used for sprinters. But tigers aren't sprinters, that is cheetahs. Who are built for sprint with more type IIx fibers.
So the conclusion is, 60-70% of Brown bear muscles are not built for strength but for stamina. While more than 50%(basically 60%) of tiger muscles are built for brute strength.
So based on all these facts, I say tigers are stronger than Brown on both averages and at parity.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I've made this thread after taking a brief look at these animals, after reading multiple studies and articles, PDFs,etc..
So please respect my data and my point. And don't make excuses like "I disagree" or "I have no desire to agree with", without showing the reason for disagreement or without showing the backup for claims. Thank you,...
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - Panther - 12-31-2018
This matches with what former russian biologist SP kuncherenko said about Siberian Tigers and ussuri brown bears.
"However, interest in nature, as a rule, arises from attempts to find answers to "childish" questions. In fairness, it should be noted that the issues of the relationship between the Ussuri tiger and the brown bear still attracted the attention of professionals. Nevertheless, there is not much reliable information about the resolution of conflict situations between the two "masters" of the taiga. S.P. Kucherenko notes that the average tiger is always stronger than the average bear. Of the 17, reliably known to him, cases of fights of a tiger with a brown bear in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976."
Source: https://shish02.livejournal.com/7269.html?thread=55909
RE: Bear Strength - Shadow - 12-31-2018
Here is one video about a bear carrying and dragging a carcass. Quite funny to see actually how it firs practically carries it and not so easy to walk until it then changes how to do it.
I put this here too just because not too much footage about hunting bears after all, even though this is a cow. Also here can be seen some strength in a way how bear handles this cow.
RE: Bear Strength - brotherbear - 12-31-2018
I hate it when, in most such videos, the person in the vehicle is always either blowing the horn or revving-up the engine.
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - brotherbear - 12-31-2018
Quote: No other animal of its size has strength comparable to that of a grizzly bear.
https://books.google.fi/books?id=mTPI_d9fyLAC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=grizzly+muscle+fibers&source=bl&ots=vMfjOXB-7S&sig=bNJpk5KitTNVT0vMMrtkLrgwjmc&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip6K2W87_fAhW6AhAIHQ4RAksQ6AEwCHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=grizzly%20muscle%20fibers&f=false
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - Panther - 12-31-2018
(12-31-2018, 09:22 PM)Rishi Wrote: "...of its size" is very important here! I'm inclined to believe that as size/weight (near)parity tigers' body would be capable of producing more muscular power, or something like that. It's not improbable... Chimps are quite smaller/lighter than humans, but atleast thrice as stronger.
@Rishi ! I'm not talking about size parity. I'm talking about at average sizes who is stronger. Which is scientifically, tigers!
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - brotherbear - 12-31-2018
Post by brobear on Dec 28, 2018 at 12:39pm
wildfact.com/forum/attachment.php?aid=293
In conclusion, no significant evidence provided any leads towards increased muscle
strength deterioration or muscle mass deterioration in postprime brown bears, yet evidence had
been found of increased muscle volume deterioration in postprime brown bears as. The brown
bears who were experimented on were shortly released back into their respective locations within
Yellowstone National Park after the study commenced. These findings suggest that brown bears,
if not all bear species as a whole, are able to retain their muscle mass and maximum muscle
strength well past their prime years, unlike most other animals.
The muscle mass of the
three year old bear was relatively low due to its low total weight, and the muscle mass of the
oldest specimen concurred with the relatively high amounts of Ib fibres: the densest muscle
fibres discovered in mammalian and reptilian bodies so far.
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - brotherbear - 12-31-2018
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - brotherbear - 12-31-2018
#2....Blaire Van Valkenburgh
professor of ecology and evolutionary biology
www.ioes.ucla.edu/person/blaire-van-valkenburgh/
SPEED AND STRENGTH
All bears have a large head with small ears followed by massive shoulders and a short back and | tail, all of which are supported on thick limbs and broad paws. Compared with big cats, bears have longer snouts and shorter, stiffer backs. Relative to large dogs, bears have bulky legs and much more spreading feet. Unlike these other carnivores, and more like humans, bears walk on the soles of their hindfeet, with their ankle joint positioned just above the ground. This condition is called plantigrade, and differs from the digitigrade posture of cats and dogs, in which the “soles” of the feet are elevated, along with the ankle, and only the toes touch the ground. To understand why bears are built so differendy from cats and dogs, it is essential to explain the benefits of digitigrade feet.
Running around on your toes in a digitigrade posture is advantageous if speed is important. Speed is the product of stride length and stride frequency. Raising the ankle adds length to the part of the limb that determines stride length, that is from the shoulder or hip to the point of contact with the ground. Longer limbs take bigger strides, and digitigrade posture is therefore typical of mammals designed to run. Digitigrade animals also tend to have relatively long bones, or metapodials, making up the sole of the foot, adding further to total limb length. In addition, their limb muscles are much thicker close to the hip or shoulder joint, and taper towards the toes as long, elastic tendons. This construction reduces muscle mass near the ankles and feet, where the limb travels farthest during locomotion, and thus reduces inertial effects.
A The skeletons of a bear and a domestic dog illustrate the difference between plantigrade and digitigrade postures. The dog is digitigrade, standing on its toes with the soles of its feet (metapodials) off the ground. By contrast, the soles of the bear's hindfeet are flat to the ground, as in humans, giving it a plantigrade posture.
If one imagines the additional energy required to walk or run with ankle weights or heavy shoes, then the drawbacks of heavy feet become clear. There are yet further benefits to runners in having long tendinous muscle attachments. Tendons are elastic and act as energy-saving springs when running. They are stretched as the limb is flexed under the weight of the animal and then rebound, propelling the body forward and upward. So, digitigrade posture, long metapodials, and compact muscles with stretchy tendons are typical of carnivores built for speed.
Bears are clearly not built for speed. Although their forefeet are semi-digitigrade, their hind-feet are plantigrade. Moreover, their metapodials are short and their muscles thick throughout the length of the limb. In many ways, bears are built more like badgers than other similar-sized carnivores, such as tigers, and it shows in their speed. The top speed recorded for both black and brown bears is 50 kilometers (30 miles) per hour, whereas the range for the fully digitigrade lion and wolf is 55 to 65 kilometers (35 to 40 miles) per hour.
If bears are not built for speed, then what does the combination of massive limbs, plantigrade hindfeet, cumbersome paws, and a short back provide? Strength and mobility of limb movement are the answers. The stout limbs of bears are capable of producing large forces over a much greater range of motion than those of dogs or even cats. Bears use these capabilities when digging for food or shelter, fishing for salmon, climbing to escape danger, and battling with members of their own species as well as other predators. Imagine a wolf trying to perform a bear hug or climb a tree. Dogs have forfeited these abilities in favor of speed. Cats are more like bears in their range of possible movements, but lack strength. Bears may not be able to outrun danger, but can successfully defend themselves through brute force.
*Quote: Cats are more like bears in their range of possible movements, but lack strength. Bears may not be able to outrun danger, but can successfully defend themselves through brute force.
RE: Tigers and Brown bears - who are really stronger. - Pantherinae - 12-31-2018
I don’t know, but I would bet my house on a bear being stronger than a lion or tiger.