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Lions of Sabi Sands - Printable Version

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RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - BA0701 - 12-12-2024

(12-12-2024, 10:51 PM)sunless Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 10:47 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 09:20 PM)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location.  if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

I'd say that is a pretty impressive list, you've made there. Though, while Scar Mbiri is an absolute beast, his brother, Shaka, is equally tough, and may have even seen more combat over the years.

Would really make you wonder how those two (Mbiri Males) is still kicking and not just only kicking but kicking strong as they have been with so many fights.

They are proof that toughness can indeed, at times, get you far in the lion's world. Shaka remains, possibly, the toughest, meanest, looking lion I have ever seen. Where as Scar has quite the opposite appearance to my eyes, and his jaw injury did not do anything to alleviate that. He looks laid back, mellow, if you will. But he is living proof, that appearances can often be deceiving.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Tr1x24 - 12-12-2024

(12-12-2024, 10:04 PM)Mapokser Wrote: You make me more skeptical when you mention the Sankai as an example of impressive males, size-wise, here the bigger-mane one, Seenka:

Why are you assuming that Mara lionesses are same sizes as Kruger ones?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - KM600 - 12-12-2024

(12-12-2024, 09:20 PM)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location.  if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

Sekekama is a tough one to comment on, I have no doubt him and his brother TornNose are great fighters but majority of them fights weren’t witnessed. 

Off the top of my head, the only lions I’ve heard about him fighting were the resident 4 male lion coaltion who controlled Marsh Pride, can’t remember their name but they were ousted by the 5 Selindas (the original coalition of Sekekama and TornNose with their brothers). He also fought his 3 Rebel sons quite a few times, even saving a younger son from his older brothers, then fought the younger brothers the Renegades too. On top of that him and TornNose fought the 2 Mababe males, TornNose got caught after being chased but survived, and are believed to have ousted another coalition of 2 / 3 males who shortly controlled the Northern Pride. 

Out of all these fights, only one of them was caught on camera, the one against the Mababe males. As I said Sekekama and TornNose come off second best but they were around 13 in that sighting compared to the very aggressive Mababe males in their prime. We also don’t know how it ended, just that TornNose somehow survived it.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Rance56 - 12-12-2024

(12-11-2024, 09:29 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Rance56 for all we know, no, lions are the same size anywhere with a healthy population.

(12-12-2024, 10:59 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 10:51 PM)sunless Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 10:47 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 09:20 PM)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location.  if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

I'd say that is a pretty impressive list, you've made there. Though, while Scar Mbiri is an absolute beast, his brother, Shaka, is equally tough, and may have even seen more combat over the years.

Would really make you wonder how those two (Mbiri Males) is still kicking and not just only kicking but kicking strong as they have been with so many fights.

They are proof that toughness can indeed, at times, get you far in the lion's world. Shaka remains, possibly, the toughest, meanest, looking lion I have ever seen. Where as Scar has quite the opposite appearance to my eyes, and his jaw injury did not do anything to alleviate that. He looks laid back, mellow, if you will. But he is living proof, that appearances can often be deceiving.

i think i choose Scar due to him being the bigger of the two, without knowing alot about their individual endeavors.  Glad that the jaw injury doesnt seem to slow him down, looks awful

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Rance56 - 12-12-2024

(12-11-2024, 09:29 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @Rance56 for all we know, no, lions are the same size anywhere with a healthy population.

(12-12-2024, 11:32 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 09:20 PM)Rance56 Wrote: im new to following lions, maybe been following along for about 2 years, an mainly watching youtube videos. recently found this site. just curious if any of yall would be willing to post a list of your opinion on like the top 5-10 greatest fighters of all time regardless of location.  if i was building a coalition of lets say 6 for lion warfare, it would be makhulu, zig zag mbiri, LK115, sekekama, mr t, and kinky tail.

Sekekama is a tough one to comment on, I have no doubt him and his brother TornNose are great fighters but majority of them fights weren’t witnessed. 

Off the top of my head, the only lions I’ve heard about him fighting were the resident 4 male lion coaltion who controlled Marsh Pride, can’t remember their name but they were ousted by the 5 Selindas (the original coalition of Sekekama and TornNose with their brothers). He also fought his 3 Rebel sons quite a few times, even saving a younger son from his older brothers, then fought the younger brothers the Renegades too. On top of that him and TornNose fought the 2 Mababe males, TornNose got caught after being chased but survived, and are believed to have ousted another coalition of 2 / 3 males who shortly controlled the Northern Pride. 

Out of all these fights, only one of them was caught on camera, the one against the Mababe males. As I said Sekekama and TornNose come off second best but they were around 13 in that sighting compared to the very aggressive Mababe males in their prime. We also don’t know how it ended, just that TornNose somehow survived it.

yes i wasnt sure if alot of it wasnt just tv and internet fame that was embellished. though i fealt he was a large, dominant, aggressive male, that was able to stay that way for some time so must of been a force.  others that i were wondering if they belong on such a list would be olibor, hairy belly, renoka, scrapper, and more recently red road and makhunga.  also wondering if jessie the outlaw could stand toe to toe with these males. and i wonder if most are all equally formidable and it just comes down to age an numbers.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Mapokser - 12-13-2024

@Tr1x24 based on weights from eastern african lions, mostly, but also, like I said, guides and photographers who spent years in both areas claims there isn't a real difference in their sizes.

But also, the largest lionesses ever weighed, anywhere, weren't even 180kg with an empty stomach, while average Kruger male ( or truly any other males from any areas ) is around 190kg.

Seenka here doesn't even have a bigger head, by the looks of it, than the female, and isn't impressive next to her in any other way.

Even if she was the largest lioness ever seen, Seenka would still be around below average in comparison.

Seenka and his Sankai brothers are often called the biggest and most impressive in Mara, but they are not big in body, only mane, which makes them look bigger, like Rob says, but when you see them next to other lions, even females, you realize they aren't.

People also think the Crater lions are the largest lions or cats in the world because they get fooled by the mane, when we have chest girth measurements from them and it was estimated they may be around 212kg, which is certainly above average, but we're talking about an area of only 50 or so lions, even Mapogo weighed 230kg with partial stomach content, but anyone would say any crater lion is twice as big as Mapogo, when in reality they'd be close in size.

Many people didn't accept Ximpoko weighed 283kg with a full stomach ( estimated 253kg empty ) because "bald lion looking as big as Mr.T only", many also didn't thought BDM was as big as we know he is now, he had a relatively small mane and didn't strike one as that bulky, still when darted by Timbavati, was stated to be the biggest they had ever darted despite Ximpoko and 1/3 Timbavati males weighing in the 250kgs range. His skull was the third largest ever measured, bigger than Dr.Kock's 272kg eastern lion.

Not to mention the largest wild lion ever weighed, shared here by Pckts a while ago, Mk-143, as the vet said nobody did even know about him, a complete random, but he weighed 287kg and had insane measurements.

People see healthy, well-fed, thick-maned Mara lions and assume they are bigger than the short-maned, more seen with empty bellies, Kruger males, but when you look deeper at it and has a keener eye to see size, you'll realize these Mara lions aren't any bigger on average than any other lion populations.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - BigLion39 - 12-13-2024

(12-06-2024, 08:32 PM)BA0701 Wrote: My friend, thank you, so much for that, as we are so very happy to have all of the members of the WildFact community! @peter

Is that @peter name Peter Retig who helped create this forum?

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - RookiePundit - 12-13-2024

(12-12-2024, 08:26 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 08:01 PM)RookiePundit Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 04:57 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(12-10-2024, 10:03 PM)Mapokser Wrote: In fact Mara barely has impressive lions size-wise currently, only Orkirikoi is clearly big and muscular, and even then doesn't seem as big as Half-Tail was ( Rob the Ranger thinks so ). The Sankai have insane manes, but even the most impressive mane-wise, Seenka, was barely bigger in anything than one of his lionesses in a video from a few months ago.

Orkirikoi himself didn't seem big compared to average BrB in the vid of them together, though he was sitting and submissive, still in a similar vid older nomadic Hairy Belly looked much bigger than Nsuku Bboy so who knows.

PCM, maybe even Mantimahle, are likely bigger than all Mara lions currently despite Mara having a much bigger area and lion population.

I think this is quite harsh, I’m not even sure u know the majority of lions in Masai Mara, I certainly don’t, and if I do, mostly by names anyways not actual sightings.

Inselberg, Kaskaz, and Enkoyonai males all look very impressive from what I’ve seen. Add Chongo from Bila Shakas to that too. Oloshipa is always in great condition, Oloimina too even with that permanent limp. Kijana aswell, obviously many more. 

I don’t know how they’d compare in height, nobody does, but their overall conditioning is always great. They may also not have the best manes, but I couldn’t care less about manes, they’re nowhere near as important as body size (height and bulkiness) in lions. 

I also don’t like the look of manes similar to the Sankai males or crater males, a bit too long for my liking. Anyways, I actually agree about the Sankai males point, they have crazy long manes, but body wise they’ve never impressed me. From the sightings I’ve seen, they’re always on the leaner side. Obviously everyone has different preferences about what they see as impressive in lions.

Apples and oranges. Mara keep their picked "stars" in good condition through veterinary intervention for profit. Can't compare that with actual wild lions, especially in TB infested Kruger.

Fair point, but that wouldn’t change their condition, it would simply just change whether they’d be dead already or still alive. I can’t speak about the others I mentioned, but pretty sure Kaskaz males have had no vet intervention. I never said they were any more impressive than Sabi Sands lions either, I was just downplaying the fact that majority of them weren’t impressive in the first place.

I was reacting to
Quote:"I don’t know how they’d compare in height, nobody does, but their overall conditioning is always great"
.And condition would ofc influence how they look, ie males in poor condition, recovering from something substantial or malnourished typically lose main etc. And indiscussion about size it sooner or later leads to how XY looks impressive, which this has a lot to do with.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - RookiePundit - 12-13-2024

(12-12-2024, 08:37 PM)sik94 Wrote:
(12-12-2024, 08:01 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: Apples and oranges. Mara keep their picked "stars" in good condition through veterinary intervention for profit. Can't compare that with actual wild lions, especially in TB infested Kruger.

They only intervene when animals are injured and save-able, they aren't selecting a few animals and keeping them fed or giving them steroids JUST because they are their "stars". The lions in the Mara are absolutely just as wild as the lions in the Kruger, just because the Mara has less stringent requirements on when they decide to intervene with veterinary aid than the Kruger doesn't mean they are in a captive or less forgiving environment. The Mara and Serengeti has around 5% infection rate of TB for lions and the Kruger has around 33-54% from the numbers I see on google. This might be why a lot more of the Mara lions have those big muscular builds while you don't see those super bulky builds as much in the Kruger, that doesn't mean they aren't wild.

They are artificially boosting longevity of those lions effectively creating long-living legends, that's undeniable, they even name them, they know what they are doing. 


Quote:doesn't mean they are in a captive or less forgiving environment.
No kidding. If old guard that would often been gone is still around, that creates conflict over limit resources (ťerritories, mating etc.) which by the way attract people ie it sells.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - Fenix123 - 12-13-2024

Floppy Ear mating with K12

Credits to ponygirl818



RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - BA0701 - 12-13-2024

(12-13-2024, 01:11 PM)BigLion39 Wrote:
(12-06-2024, 08:32 PM)BA0701 Wrote: My friend, thank you, so much for that, as we are so very happy to have all of the members of the WildFact community! @peter

Is that @peter name Peter Retig who helped create this forum?

My friend, it is Peter Broekhuijsen, who authored the quote at the top of the page.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - T_Ferguson - 12-13-2024

How old is Floppy Ear at this point?  I thought he was youngish, like 4.  He and K12 are such a pairing of circumstance, and kind of amazing they found each other from where she left her brothers.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - BA0701 - 12-13-2024

(12-13-2024, 07:31 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: How old is Floppy Ear at this point?  I thought he was youngish, like 4.  He and K12 are such a pairing of circumstance, and kind of amazing they found each other from where she left her brothers.

I believe he should be getting close to 5, if I am not mistaken.

RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sunless - 12-13-2024

(12-13-2024, 06:37 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: They are artificially boosting longevity of those lions effectively creating long-living legends, that's undeniable, they even name them, they know what they are doing. 
I would not say that they are artificially boosting longevity but have been treating lions that is still alive and not killed by herder or any HWC. Mara lions can just magically disappear (HWC). So to counter act the HWC they treat any lions that is injured in the Mara and to make their name seen in a positive light, but they are still in cahoots/complacent with the suspects of HWC. 


RE: Lions of Sabi Sands - sunless - 12-13-2024

(12-13-2024, 07:37 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(12-13-2024, 07:31 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: How old is Floppy Ear at this point?  I thought he was youngish, like 4.  He and K12 are such a pairing of circumstance, and kind of amazing they found each other from where she left her brothers.

I believe he should be getting close to 5, if I am not mistaken.

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I can remember he will turn 3 or 4 years old this February.